Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Junkyard Tom

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm actually very happy that nobody has suggested anyone is being racist for putting forward this argument about supply and demand.

I think it's fairly well established that capitalist accumulation goes hand-in-hand with population movement - it's been happening since people moved from subsistence farming the land to the factories at the beginning of the industrial revolution.

El_Duderino 09

knipex wrote: »

But the viability of the jobs is dependent on the product begin competitively priced.

If you labor costs skyrocket compared to the competition (domestic and international) then you go out of business. get rid of international competition the increases in growing \ processing cost drive up food prices.

Yes but 2 things:
1 were in agreement that supply of labour drives/keeps wages low so the poor have less chance of wage growth.

2 all businesses face the same business pressure. The businesses which are vital for the country are subsidised by the state to ensure they can compete (at this point were out of the normal supply demand structure) It's completely unfair to expect the poorest to bare the brunt. So when he poor have a chance to vote for or against the supply of fresh labour represented by the EU...

kowloon

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, of course the Tories...

I don't know if people will agree with it but that was a quality post.

davedanon

I'm not an economist, let alone that economically literate, and I don't really disagree with much of what's been said here. I suppose my essential position is that while I agree that a surfeit of labour drives down wages, I just don't want to see immigrants take the blame for it. Immigration is known to be an economic benefit, overall. People don't uproot their families and make long and sometimes dangerous journeys to make a new life by....going on the dole. It wasn't so for the Irish that went all over the world, and it isn't so for anyone, really, because more than anything else, people are the same the world over. They want the same things.

I don't blame immigrants for taking what they can get (and by that I mean working in low-paid jobs out of necessity, not sponging off the state). I blame capitalism, and especially neo-liberalism. Personally, I'd like to see much more of a social-democratic tendency around the world, with more emphasis on social welfare and safety nets for the less fortunate. We're all in the same boat. Or at least, we should be.

davedanon

"Meanwhile the professions can happily be in favour of more immigration because it's not exactly as if somebody is going to walk off the boat and become the next editor of The Irish Times or the next Fintan O'Toole or have any other position in Irish"

I was reading there about a girl who came here from eastern Europe only 3 years ago with no English getting 600 points in the Leaving. I'd be interested to see what happens to her.

El_Duderino 09

davedanon wrote: »

I'm not an economist, let alone that economically literate, and I don't really disagree with much of what's been said here. I suppose my essential position is that while I agree that a surfeit of labour drives down wages, I just don't want to see immigrants take the blame for it. Immigration is known to be an economic benefit, overall. People don't uproot their families and make long and sometimes dangerous journeys to make a new life by....going on the dole. It wasn't so for the Irish that went all over the world, and it isn't so for anyone, really, because more than anything else, people are the same the world over. They want the same things.

I don't blame immigrants for taking what they can get (and by that I mean working in low-paid jobs out of necessity, not sponging off the state). I blame capitalism, and especially neo-liberalism. Personally, I'd like to see much more of a social-democratic tendency around the world, with more emphasis on social welfare and safety nets for the less fortunate. We're all in the same boat. Or at least, we should be.

That's fine. Do you acknowledge that nobody in the last few pages has blamed anything on immigrants?

El_Duderino 09

davedanon wrote: »

"Meanwhile the professions can happily be in favour of more immigration because it's not exactly as if somebody is going to walk off the boat and become the next editor of The Irish Times or the next Fintan O'Toole or have any other position in Irish"

I was reading there about a girl who came here from eastern Europe only 3 years ago with no English getting 600 points in the Leaving. I'd be interested to see what happens to her.

That's true to an extent. If solicitors, accountants, bankers and managers were being replaced by people who will do the job for cheap, causing a stop in.
wage growth and career progression for indigenous professionals, then it would probably have been stopped already.

But since its just poor people then who cares? The poor people care.

El_Duderino 09

Double post

davedanon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's fine. Do you acknowledge that nobody in the last few pages has blamed anything on immigrants?

Of course. I wasn't trying to imply that.

El_Duderino 09

davedanon wrote: »

Of course. I wasn't trying to imply that.

That's grand so. I wouldn't have any time for immigrant bashing either.

It's interesting how close the supply and demand argument comes to immigrant bashing, without actually being anti immigrant or racist. I wonder how many people slip into a racist argument when all they mean to do is make the supply and demand argument.

davedanon

It's a convenient strawman argument employed by racists.

El_Duderino 09

davedanon wrote: »

It's a convenient strawman argument employed by racists.

I think it's a valid argument which often runs in parallel with racism. In any case, freedom of cheap labour suits the wealthy, business owners and consumers. So if be very surprised if BJ isn't keen to keep it as part of a deal. I'd say it would suit his core voters but would take some hard selling to people on low wages. But BJ is an excellent salesman.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens when the deadline comes near.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's grand so. I wouldn't have any time for immigrant bashing either.

It's interesting how close the supply and demand argument comes to immigrant bashing, without actually being anti immigrant or racist. I wonder how many people slip into a racist argument when all they mean to do is make the supply and demand argument.

I think it's to do with wilfully ignoring that immigrants are also consumers, entrepreneurs, wealth creators, and generally contribute to the economy.

It's not a case of there were 100 fruit picking jobs and 100 Irish people, now there are 100 jobs, 100 Irish people and 20 immigrants, so 20 Irish people go unemployed while the immigrants work for less. Actually, there are now 120 jobs, because those immigrants also need to buy and eat fruit just like the Irish people who were buying and eating the 100 fruit to begin with.

That's a gross oversimplification obviously and doesn't account for import / export, but on a large scale the economy works something like that - the number of jobs in a population will be equal to the amount of work that needs to be done to support that population, whether it's 4 million people or 100 million people. That's why the supply and demand argument that is used against migrants isn't used against babies being born.

kowloon

kowloon wrote: »

I don't know if people will agree with it but that was a quality post.

typical Fuaranach flip flopping rant to suit an agenda to be honest.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=100324166&postcount=6660

it isn't racist to oppose immigration apparently, unless you are British, in which case you are a xenophobic little Englander :rolleyes:

The guy has zero credibility, he is even blaming one of the original corner stones of the EEC, free movement of people and free movement of goods, on Margaret Thatcher FFS

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Rome

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

It's a convenient strawman argument employed by racists.

Maybe I was imprecise there. It does have some validity, but it's often employed by racists as a fig-leaf for their racism.

I remember Kevin Myers some years back, evidently at the start of his slide into right-wing intolerance, saying "we have to be allowed to have a conversation about immigration without being accused of racism"

Sounded reasonable enough, until he revealed himself to be a bigot. See also: John Waters. What is it about hitherto intelligent, articulate media types, that so many curdle into bitter old reactionaries in middle-age?

ohnonotgmail

Sweet baby jesus

The solution is a bilateral agreement to agree a common rule book with Ireland for as long we need one. Ireland would also keep all the advantages of its single market membership, if the EU is prepared to be flexible”

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1163963029924528133

Experience_day

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Sweet baby jesus



https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1163963029924528133

Wasn't that debunked by no 10 already?

quokula

Experience_day wrote: »

Wasn't that debunked by no 10 already?

Looks like they're purposely leaking ideas to the press to see the reactions.

kunst nugget

quokula wrote: »

Looks like they're purposely leaking ideas to the press to see the reactions.

But at this stage there must be a Brexit version of Poe's Law where nothing can seem too extreme or outlandish an idea because of the people in charge of it.

ohnonotgmail

Experience_day wrote: »

Wasn't that debunked by no 10 already?

you mean like they "debunked" the yellowhammer document?

Panrich

As James O’Brien said ‘It’s the satirists you’d feel sorry for’.

Nasty Ireland refuses to help out a neighbor in its hour of need.

davedanon

Panrich wrote: »

As James O’Brien said ‘It’s the satirists you’d feel sorry for’.

Nasty Ireland refuses to help out a neighbor in its hour of need.

True, although funnily enough I've just been listening to O'Brien interviewing Ian Hislop - whose satirical mag Private Eye is doing better than ever.

sabat

Get the popcorn ready for an offensive gaffe...

Kidchameleon

quokula wrote: »

I think it's to do with wilfully ignoring that immigrants are also consumers, entrepreneurs, wealth creators, and generally contribute to the economy.

It's not a case of there were 100 fruit picking jobs and 100 Irish people, now there are 100 jobs, 100 Irish people and 20 immigrants, so 20 Irish people go unemployed while the immigrants work for less. Actually, there are now 120 jobs, because those immigrants also need to buy and eat fruit just like the Irish people who were buying and eating the 100 fruit to begin with.

That's a gross oversimplification obviously and doesn't account for import / export, but on a large scale the economy works something like that - the number of jobs in a population will be equal to the amount of work that needs to be done to support that population, whether it's 4 million people or 100 million people. That's why the supply and demand argument that is used against migrants isn't used against babies being born.

Not necessarily. Depending on their country of origin, immigrants may be net tax burdens. People from sub Saharan Africa have a pretty low IQ for various reasons (and I am not talking about race here, there are many ethnicity's in this region including but not limited to blacks and whites). We are talking an average IQ of 76-80 for sub Saharan Africans compared to Ireland's of 92-96 (https://brainstats.com/average-iq-by-country.html).


People of lower IQ tend not to be entrepreneurs, inventors or innovators. (https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fb87/509ce4c2019f6bee9fd6cc8dfc989d210acb.pdf).


People of lower IQ tend to consume more benefits, paid for by the tax payer https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5500358/


People with low IQ tend to be involved in more crime, creating even more of a burden that the tax payer must cover
https://thealternativehypothesis.org/index.php/2017/01/07/race-iq-and-crime/


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/manchester/6364343.stm

So it is wrong to assume that every immigrant will produce profit for the economy. There are of course plenty of immigrants who do contribute and that is great, but we do take in people from low IQ areas and this may not be the best investment for the tax payer. Again, I am talking about all races here, I am not signaling any race out. It is a fact that the sub Saharan Africa zone has a tendency towards low IQ as has been cited above.

BorneTobyWilde

I have no idea why Ireland has so much loyalty to the EU, we have a long history with the UK and the USA.
We should join the UK and USA in a Union and tell the EU to take a jump.

declanflynn

Yeah we have a long history with the UK alright

kunst nugget

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I have no idea why Ireland has so much loyalty to the EU, we have a long history with the UK and the USA.
We should join the UK and USA in a Union and tell the EU to take a jump.

That would be the absolute worst thing a small nation like us could possibly do. It would be ten times worse than what Britain is doing to itself with Brexit.

El_Duderino 09

kunst nugget wrote: »

That would be the absolute worst thing a small nation like us could possibly do. It would be ten times worse than what Britain is doing to itself with Brexit.

Ah now. I'm sure Trump would give Ireland a veto on anything he wants to do. He's reasonable like that.

Professor Moriarty

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I have no idea why Ireland has so much loyalty to the EU, we have a long history with the UK and the USA.
We should join the UK and USA in a Union and tell the EU to take a jump.

Good one!

Junkyard Tom

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I have no idea why Ireland has so much loyalty to the EU, we have a long history with the UK and the USA.
We should join the UK and USA in a Union and tell the EU to take a jump.

Listen to David McWilliam's latest podcast. Even if we forget the mass starvation, brutality, and state terrorism, British rule in Ireland has been demonstrably woeful for the Irish people.