Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

FrancieBrady

davedanon wrote: »

What do you mean by 'obsession with pork products', and also, are you denying the stats re: relative wealth of Irish v Brit?

I think Aegir is sulking a bit like his countryman Bruce Arnold was recently.

davedanon

davedanon wrote: »

What do you mean by 'obsession with pork products', and also, are you denying the stats re: relative wealth of Irish v Brit?

You ever hear the phrase “lies, damned lies and statistics”

Peregrinus

And have you ever heard that simply quoting the phrase does nothing, in itself, to show that any particular statistic is misleading or bogus? If you think the statistics are wrong you really need to say why you think so, and it has to be a bit more than just "I don't like them".

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

And have you ever heard that simply quoting the phrase does nothing, in itself, to show that any particular statistic is misleading or bogus? If you think the statistics are wrong you really need to say why you think so, and it has to be a bit more than just "I don't like them".

Because, as has been stated for the last god knows how long, Irish GDP is hugely distorted by the number of multinationals who use island for tax reasons.

GNI is more accurate, but still massively distorted

To say that the average Irish person is 26% more wealthy than the average British person based on this is Brexiteer levels of delusion

But you know that.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

Because, as has been stated for the last god knows how long, Irish GDP is hugely distorted by the number of multinationals who use island for tax reasons.

GNI is more accurate, but still massively distorted

To say that the average Irish person is 26% more wealthy than the average British person based on this is Brexiteer levels of delusion

But you know that.

And you also know, presumably, that UK GDP is distorted by the huge number of financial transactions booked in London that have nothing to do with any actual economic activity in London.

If you don't trust GDP, there are other ways of measuring the prosperity of a country, as reflected in the living standards of its people. For example, measuring consumption expenditure per household tells you the value the goods and services the residents of a country enjoy. This flushes out the profits that accrue in company accounts but never get distributed to people living in the country. Irish mean consumption expenditure is 13.5% higher than the UK's. You can adjust that to reflect differences in purchasing power; the Irish margin then increases to 23.8%

If you can find any credible statistic that shows that people in the UK are better off than people in Ireland, now would be a good time to trot it out. If just one statistic was showing Ireland as better off, you might dismiss it as an aberration. But if all the statistics, employing different metrics and looking variously at production and consumption, are showing the same thing, it's going to take more than a cliched Churchill quote to persuade people that they're all wrong.

Dytalus

Aegir wrote: »

Because, as has been stated for the last god knows how long, Irish GDP is hugely distorted by the number of multinationals who use island for tax reasons.

GNI is more accurate, but still massively distorted

To say that the average Irish person is 26% more wealthy than the average British person based on this is Brexiteer levels of delusion

But you know that.

Handily enough, the Central Statistics Office publishes GNI* and uses that primarily rather than GNI. The Modified GNI (GNI*) accounts for inflation from multinationals. So let's use that and find the actual values (note, the populations for 2018 are estimates from the official statistics offices of each nation - actual census values are not available).

UK 2018 GNI: £2,091,074 million URL="https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmz/ukea"]Source[/URL
Using the end of 2018 year £/€ rate, this gives: €2,316,701 million. URL="https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/best-exchange-rates/best-british-pound-to-euro-history-2018"]Source[/URL
UK 2018 population: 66,435,600 URL="https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates"]Source[/URL
UK GNI per capita: €34,871.379

IE 2018 GNI*: €197,500 million URL="https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-nie/nie2018/mgni/"]Source[/URL
IE 2018 population: 4,857,000 URL="https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2018/"]Source[/URL
IE GNI* per capita: €40,662.961

€40,662.96 vs €34,871.38 per person is a 16% increase.

For our population, we are an pretty wealthy nation. But we also have huge disparities in our three economic regions (Eastern and Midlands, Southern, Northern and Western), so yes...not everyone can experience that wealth. But the same can be said the UK - the poorest regions of the UK are disastrously fallen behind the rest of the nation.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you can find any credible statistic that shows that people in the UK are better off than people in Ireland, now would be a good time to trot it out. If just one statistic was showing Ireland as better off, you might dismiss it as an aberration. But if all the statistics, employing different metrics and looking variously at production and consumption, are showing the same thing, it's going to take more than a cliched Churchill quote to persuade people that they're all wrong.

I’m not looking to show that. I’m lot the one spouting claiming “We’ve got loadsamoney”.

It is arrogance.

Seth Brundle

splinter65 wrote: »

I fear you overestimate Leo’s position in the EU leaders pecking order.
And by some distance.

From where I'm looking, I can see all of the EU leaders standing firmly united behind Leo making his position quite strong.
Who is standing behind Boris? Trump? Putin?

splinter65 wrote: »

The UK parliament didn’t like the deal that Mrs May agreed to.

The UK parliament have never said what kind of deal they do want though!

splinter65 wrote: »

The deal wasn’t what the voters voted for.

How do you know?
What did they vote for exactly?

seamus

Aegir wrote: »

It is arrogance.

Accusing Ireland of arrogance while the leader of a country of 60 million with a slowing economy plays chicken with an economic union of 450 million on the basis that "they need us more than we need them".

Ok so.

kunst nugget

This is a good overview of why people voted the way they did in the referendum:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/03/a-reminder-of-how-britain-voted-in-the-eu-referendum-and-why/

storker

kunst nugget wrote: »

This is a good overview of why people voted the way they did in the referendum:

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/03/a-reminder-of-how-britain-voted-in-the-eu-referendum-and-why/

The most intriguing figure there must surely be the 4% of UKIP who voted remain. Maybe the ballot paper was just too complicated for them...

swampgas

Aegir wrote: »

I’m not looking to show that. I’m lot the one spouting claiming “We’ve got loadsamoney”.

It is arrogance.

It might be worth asking yourself why the idea of the Irish being slightly wealthier than the British bothers you so much. If you can figure out the reason, please let us know. I'm guessing you're not the only one who feels threatened by it.

kunst nugget

storker wrote: »

The most intriguing figure there must surely be the 4% of UKIP who voted remain. Maybe the ballot paper was just too complicated for them...

Or maybe, even though they wanted out, they realised that voting to leave without a plan in place was incredibly dense...

kunst nugget

kunst nugget wrote: »

Or maybe, even though they wanted out, they realised that voting to leave without a plan in place was incredibly dense...

But they are already UKIP members...

MadYaker

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That was not a deal. It was leaving the EU in name only. Deliberate attempt of sabotage on the part of May and the EU

It’s a bit early to be re writing such recent history. May and her team negotiated a deal that got Britain out of the EU in a controlled fashion. To say it was deliberate to sabotage brexit is not true.

Is there still going to be a GE in the uk? We’re running out of time surely?

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Accusing Ireland of arrogance while the leader of a country of 60 million with a slowing economy plays chicken with an economic union of 450 million on the basis that "they need us more than we need them".

Ok so.

I didn’t accuse Ireland of arrogance, I’ll leave the crass generalisations others thanks.

Seth Brundle

Kidchameleon wrote: »

That was not a deal. It was leaving the EU in name only. Deliberate attempt of sabotage on the part of May and the EU

...and the default exit from the EU (i.e. no deal) is not sabotage?

Despite your usual populist nonsense Kidchameleon, leaving the EU is an incredibly stupid move. To do it with no hint of a strategy on how to leave was sabotage bordering on treason.

Nobody forced the UK to leave. It was a democratic decision by England the UK (ignoring the work by the likes fo Russia and CA) to leave.
The public voted Yes or no to a ill-defined question. The Uk government did nothing to elaborate on the direction r consequences of leaving. It was all pompous nonsense about how great the UK is and how well they will no do on the world market despite having no skilled negotiators.
The UK parliament agreed to invoke Art 50 despite nobody having an idea of the method in which they would leave the EU.
The whole clusterfu*k is solely at the feet of the UK government. No point trying to blame the EU for any of it!

B0jangles

Panrich wrote: »

John Bull is leaving the company but contrary to what he told everyone, he has no new job lined up.

To push the analogy even further, John Bull got drunk at the office christmas party, got up on a table to make a big dramatic, burn-all-my-bridges-style exit speech - I'm talking the kind where you call the boss a wanker and the colleagues all backstabbing toadies. The kind of resignation we all dream about occasionally, but never actually do because they are incredibly stupid and make you nearly unemployable within your industry.



Then poor aul John woke up the next morning with a sore head and a hell of a lot of messages waiting for him.

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

Peregrinus wrote: »

If you can find any credible statistic that shows that people in the UK are better off than people in Ireland, now would be a good time to trot it out. If just one statistic was showing Ireland as better off, you might dismiss it as an aberration. But if all the statistics, employing different metrics and looking variously at production and consumption, are showing the same thing, it's going to take more than a cliched Churchill quote to persuade people that they're all wrong.

I’m not looking to show that. I’m lot the one spouting claiming “We’ve got loadsamoney”.

It is arrogance.

Wait til Nov 1st then your crowd will have the most money

declanflynn

declanflynn wrote: »

Wait til Nov 1st then your crowd will have the most money

Why is it always a competition?

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

declanflynn wrote: »

Wait til Nov 1st then your crowd will have the most money

Why is it always a competition?

Its not, a few facts were posted up here a few de paffell types disputed them, then the facts were defended and proved to be true

Panrich

Panrich wrote: »

John Bull is leaving the company but contrary to what he told everyone, he has no new job lined up.

He wants to come back as a contractor to do the same job at the same desk but without having to follow company policies and wants to be paid via an offshore contracting company.
He wants to be able to do jobs for competitors too while at work.

declanflynn

Deleted User wrote: »

Panrich wrote: »

John Bull is leaving the company but contrary to what he told everyone, he has no new job lined up.

He wants to come back as a contractor to do the same job at the same desk but without having to follow company policies and wants to be paid via an offshore contracting company.
He wants to be able to do jobs for competitors too while at work.

I wouldn't think John was a popular lad when he worked for the company, I'd say a lot of employees are glad to see the back of him thats if he goes

swampgas

swampgas wrote: »

It might be worth asking yourself why the idea of the Irish being slightly wealthier than the British bothers you so much. If you can figure out the reason, please let us know. I'm guessing you're not the only one who feels threatened by it.

I live in Ireland, so apparently I’m one of these “rich” people.

It certainly doesn’t feel like it though.

And you guys call brexiteers deludes.

Dytalus

Aegir wrote: »

I live in Ireland, so apparently I’m one of these “rich” people.

It certainly doesn’t feel like it though.

And you guys call brexiteers deludes.

Wealthier does not equal wealthy. The statement people have been making is that average Irish person has more wealth than the average British person.

This is not the same as saying that we're all individually rich. Means and medians always have some people above the bar, and some below it. A rich nation can still have some desperately poor people - the US, for example. Or even the UK to stick closer to home.

Dytalus

Dytalus wrote: »

Wealthier does not equal wealthy. The statement people have been making is that average Irish person has more wealth than the average British person..

Statistically, thanks to Ireland being a convenient location for multinationals to avoid paying tax.

ohnonotgmail

Aegir wrote: »

Statistically, thanks to Ireland being a convenient location for multinationals to avoid paying tax.

figures have already been posted that ignore the effect of multinationals and we still come out ahead of the UK

Seth Brundle

Aegir wrote: »

Statistically, thanks to Ireland being a convenient location for multinationals to avoid paying tax.

Just to address your begrudging remark - in fairness the UK (and many other countries) is as good at letting MNCs avoiding paying tax.
So why then do they locate their HQs here?

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

figures have already been posted that ignore the effect of multinationals and we still come out ahead of the UK

It doesn’t ignore the effect of multinationals, if it did then it would be ignoring the incomes of thousands of people, the rents and rates they pay and the services they use.

It doesn’t take out the multinationals that are resident here either.

It does beg the question, If Ireland is wealthier then where is the free healthcare and the state of the art public transport?

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just to address your begrudging remark - in fairness the UK (and many other countries) is as good at letting MNCs avoiding paying tax.
So why then do they locate their HQs here?

Because of convenient tax loop holes.