Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

RobMc59

Aegir wrote: »

swampgas wrote: »

It might be worth asking yourself why the idea of the Irish being slightly wealthier than the British bothers you so much. If you can figure out the reason, please let us know. I'm guessing you're not the only one who feels threatened by it.

I live in Ireland, so apparently I’m one of these “rich” people.

It certainly doesn’t feel like it though.

And you guys call brexiteers deludes.

This line of discussion reminds me of this harry Enfield character.
https://youtu.be/KzNyv6OdZuo

Seth Brundle

Aegir wrote: »

Because of convenient tax loop holes.

... and is this unique to Ireland because last time I looked, the UK tax laws allowed MNCs to pay sweet FA tax e.g. Starbucks
So I'll ask the question again: why do they locate their HQs here?

seamus

Aegir wrote: »

It doesn’t ignore the effect of multinationals, if it did then it would be ignoring the incomes of thousands of people, the rents and rates they pay and the services they use.

"I mean, yeah sure Ireland is wealthier if you take into account the earnings of people who actually work in Ireland. But what if you don't?"

This is a bizarre twist on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy here Aegir. You're really clutching at straws.

It does beg the question, If Ireland is wealthier then where is the free healthcare and the state of the art public transport?

No...it doesn't? We can bring it back to the US again. If California is wealthier than the UK, where is the free healthcare and state of the art public transport?

ohnonotgmail

Aegir wrote: »

It doesn’t ignore the effect of multinationals, if it did then it would be ignoring the incomes of thousands of people, the rents and rates they pay and the services they use.

It doesn’t take out the multinationals that are resident here either.

It does beg the question, If Ireland is wealthier then where is the free healthcare and the state of the art public transport?

It is increasingly difficult to figure out if posters are actually being serious.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

... and is this unique to Ireland because last time I looked, the UK tax laws allowed MNCs to pay sweet FA tax e.g. Starbucks
So I'll ask the question again: why do they locate their HQs here?

It isn’t UK tax law, it is the single market that allows companies like Amazon to sell as much as it likes in the UK, without actually having a presence there. It then claims all of the sales through its company in Luxembourg and exploits tax loopholes created by a certain president of the Eu commission to avoid paying taxes.

Google etc do similar in Ireland.

Surely you’ve heard of a bit of a fuss about Apple?

First Up

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

It is increasingly difficult to figure out if posters are actually being serious.

That's true but it is not difficult to see that some are getting desperate.

Junkyard Tom

Aegir wrote: »

Thanks to very generous tax loopholes exploited by US multinationals.

Aegir wrote: »

That’s good then. I’m off to buy two kilos of coke and a three bed apartment in Bulgaria.

Aegir wrote: »

Gold infused Celtic tiger pineapple of course. It never ceases to amaze me how quick the Irish are to declare themselves “rich”. It does beg the question as to why the infrastructure in this country is creaking and there are little, if any, plans to improve it. Maybe it’s because all those tax loopholes have made the government kid people in to believing they are rich, but aren’t actually getting any benefit from it.

Aegir wrote: »

I’ve no idea what McWilliams obsession is with pork products, but whatever it may be, it isn’t pork that is making the Irish wealthy, although in fairness, it probably contributes more than a certain cork based company named after s popular fruit.

The whole “we’re considerably richer than you” bull**** though is exactly the sort of ****e Bertie’s mob was coming out with when McWilliams was talking about a soft landing being the best we could hope for. I believe Bertie also accused the British of being jealous of Ireland’s success when a number of London based analysts started downgrading Irish bonds.

Aegir wrote: »

You ever hear the phrase “lies, damned lies and statistics”

Aegir wrote: »

Because, as has been stated for the last god knows how long, Irish GDP is hugely distorted by the number of multinationals who use island for tax reasons. GNI is more accurate, but still massively distorted

To say that the average Irish person is 26% more wealthy than the average British person based on this is Brexiteer levels of delusion But you know that.

Aegir wrote: »

I’m not looking to show that. I’m lot the one spouting claiming “We’ve got loadsamoney”. It is arrogance.

Aegir wrote: »

I didn’t accuse Ireland of arrogance, I’ll leave the crass generalisations others thanks.

Aegir wrote: »

I live in Ireland, so apparently I’m one of these “rich” people. It certainly doesn’t feel like it though. And you guys call brexiteers deludes.

Aegir wrote: »

Because of convenient tax loop holes.

Aegir wrote: »

Statistically, thanks to Ireland being a convenient location for multinationals to avoid paying tax.

Aegir wrote: »

It doesn’t ignore the effect of multinationals, if it did then it would be ignoring the incomes of thousands of people, the rents and rates they pay and the services they use. It doesn’t take out the multinationals that are resident here either. It does beg the question, If Ireland is wealthier then where is the free healthcare and the state of the art public transport?

Aegir wrote: »

It isn’t UK tax law, it is the single market that allows companies like Amazon to sell as much as it likes in the UK, without actually having a presence there. It then claims all of the sales through its company in Luxembourg and exploits tax loopholes created by a certain president of the Eu commission to avoid paying taxes. Google etc do similar in Ireland. Surely you’ve heard of a bit of a fuss about Apple?

Not triggered at all. No Siree-Bob me ol' mucker.

First Up

Aegir wrote: »

It isn’t UK tax law, it is the single market that allows companies like Amazon to sell as much as it likes in the UK, without actually having a presence there. It then claims all of the sales through its company in Luxembourg and exploits tax loopholes created by a certain president of the Eu commission to avoid paying taxes.

Google etc do similar in Ireland.

Surely you’ve heard of a bit of a fuss about Apple?

I think you are a bit confused. Amazon (and Google's) tax arrangements are not facilitated by the Single Market.

The Single market simply allows the free circulation of goods within it. Anything shipped by Amazon originating from outside the SM is liable for EU taxes and duties. After Brexit, Amazon is unlikely to continue to operate its European distribution business from the UK but its tax situation will not be affected.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not triggered at all. No Siree-Bob me ol' mucker.

Funny to see it all laid out like that.

Junkyard Tom

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not triggered at all. No Siree-Bob me ol' mucker.

So the truth is painful, so go for the poster instead.

Good man.

First Up

First Up wrote: »

I think you are a bit confused. Amazon (and Google's) tax arrangements are not facilitated by the Single Market.

The Single market simply allows the free circulation of goods within it. Anything shipped by Amazon originating from outside the SM is liable for EU taxes and duties. After Brexit, Amazon is unlikely to continue to operate its European distribution business from the UK but its tax situation will not be affected.

The single market doesn’t facilitate it, the individual governments so. It just means that a company based in Luxembourg and subject to very generous Luxembourg tax rules, can sell goods and services in the entire single market and pay tax (or not as the case may be) in Luxembourg.

Why do you think when you buy from amazon in the uk, it is often shipped from Amazon S.A.?

declanflynn

Aegir wrote: »

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Not triggered at all. No Siree-Bob me ol' mucker.

So the truth is painful, so go for the poster instead.

Good man.

Why do brits ever leave the mainland

First Up

Aegir wrote: »

The single market doesn’t facilitate it, the individual governments so. It just means that a company based in Luxembourg and subject to very generous Luxembourg tax rules, can sell goods and services in the entire single market and pay tax (or not as the case may be) in Luxembourg.

And therefore it is not an EU issue

Follow the money. This is what the British finances are when the economy is supposedly good and they are not in a recession:

UK government borrowing surges ahead of Brexit deadline: Budget deficit jumps 60% between April and July to £16bn, new figures show

No doubt at this stage the Brexiteers are so sure they can scapegoat the EU for everything that they're "in for a penny, in for a pound" and getting loads of other spending covered under this guise.

Who on earth would invest in an economy with such chaos? Just how low is sterling going to fall as a result of this profligate mismanagement?

They're borrowing before their rating is downgraded?

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

So the truth is painful

Truth? You want truth? The outstanding truths about Brexit are facing you each and every day. That you and your fellow British nationalists, who are increasingly exposing themselves as in reality English nationalists, refuse to engage with them is the cause of your own state's downfall. Nobody - absolutely nobody - to blame but your deluded, conceited, scapegoat-needing selves.

Brexit and the "haughty spirit" of its proponents has pride before the fall of biblical proportions written all over it.

Faugheen

Kidchameleon wrote: »

She didn't work hard enough, they are still in the EU. She is a disgrace, shame on her.

She worked hard enough to get a deal that Boris voted in favour of.

The most read story over on The Irish Times is currently this one from Colin Gleeson, which is telling us a lot that isn't appearing in the British news amid the talk of Johnson's "successful" visit:

Boris Johnson gets lecture from Macron on the Troubles

You can always trust the French not to mince their words, and Emmanuel Macron – the young, dynamic president of the republic and one of Europe’s most progressive leaders – is no exception.

Receiving UK prime minister Boris Johnson in the courtyard of the Élysée Palace this week, Macron set the tone by hoisting French and EU flags – but no British ones. While remaining courteous and respectful, he seemed in no mood to mollycoddle his guest.

Johnson, with his abhorrence for the backstop, did not take seriously enough the risk of reigniting the conflict in Northern Ireland, Macron implied. “There are still families whose children, brothers and sisters died in this conflict,” he said.

“To think of reviving that, because it suits us, would be irresponsible. I consider that Irish peace is European peace. We must not allow it to be threatened by a political and institutional crisis in Britain.”

The remarks could almost have been scripted in Dublin, and Macron went even further with the suggestion that Irish reunification and integration of the entire island in the EU “would solve all the problems”. To be a fly on the shoulder of Arlene Foster.

Days earlier, Johnson was greeted in Berlin to shouts of “No Brexit” from a hostile crowd camped outside the Berlin chancellery. Angela Merkel – hosting her fifth British prime minister – told Johnson the onus to find an alternative to the backstop was on him.

If he could do so within a short timeframe, Merkel said she would listen to proposals to change the withdrawal agreement, although there is no expectation in Berlin, Paris or Dublin that it can be done.

Nonetheless, the usual suspects in the British media celebrated the “concession” won by Johnson. “We can Merk is out,” cried the Sun on its front page.

All the while, UK government borrowing surged in the first four months of the fiscal year. The budget deficit between April and July stood at £16 billion, 60 per cent more than the same period last year....

shesty

It would be interesting to know how Britain would react to achieveing Brexit at the cost of "losing" NI.They are so hung up on themselves as rulers of the world, I wonder would they chose to keep NI over exiting the EU.....

Would be a done deal had May not totally fvcked up, and needed DUP

shesty

shesty wrote: »

It would be interesting to know how Britain would react to achieveing Brexit at the cost of "losing" NI.They are so hung up on themselves as rulers of the world, I wonder would they chose to keep NI over exiting the EU.....

From the FT: Conservatives engulfed by a strident English nationalism (21 June 2019):

.... This profile helps to explain the results of the YouGov poll released on Tuesday. The survey showed that, in order to ensure Brexit happens, 63 per cent of Conservative party members were prepared to let Scotland leave the UK. Some 59 per cent were prepared to let Northern Ireland go, too.

Moreover, 61 per cent of party members were willing to accept significant damage to the UK economy as the price for getting out of the EU. Astonishingly, 54 per cent were willing to see the Conservative party itself destroyed in order to achieve Brexit.

The more long-term thinkers, if that's not giving them too much credit, among the Brexiteers realise that the extent of their "taking back control" is directly related to whether NI is going with them or not: if NI is left out of their post-Brexit state their sovereignty will be significantly greater. At the moment, NI is the albatross on the pipe dreams of the English Brexiteers and many rightwing Tories have made it clear that they're prepared to ditch the Unionists. NI is far more significant in impeding Brexit than Scotland is as if they keep NI they have an EU border problem.

DUP 'holding Conservatives to ransom' over Brexit, Tory MP says (12 April 2019)

Listen to this very enlightening clip:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn9vfeSIZ0Y

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Truth? You want truth? The outstanding truths about Brexit are facing you each and every day. That you and your fellow British nationalists, who are increasingly exposing themselves as in reality English nationalists, refuse to engage with them is the cause of your own state's downfall. Nobody - absolutely nobody - to blame but your deluded, conceited, scapegoat-needing selves.

Brexit and the "haughty spirit" of its proponents has pride before the fall of biblical proportions written all over it.

I believe the word “triggered” is appropriate here.

Aegir

Aegir wrote: »

I believe the word “triggered” is appropriate here.

Of all the adjectives in the world, you hadn't the creativity to do anything but plagiarise the one used against you on the last page. This is Brexiteer-level indolence to a T.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Of all the adjectives in the world, you hadn't the creativity to do anything but plagiarise the one used against you on the last page. This is Brexiteer-level indolence to a T.

I’m loving the somewhat off target ad hominem old chap, keep it up.

I see Boris Johnson is now threatening Donald Trump:

Boris Johnson warns Trump US must compromise to get UK trade deal


And when their "American friends" refuse, just what precisely are the options for Brexit Britain? Ineffably pitiful stuff.

RobMc59

Deleted User wrote: »

I see Boris Johnson is now threatening Donald Trump:

Boris Johnson warns Trump US must compromise to get UK trade deal


And when their "American friends" refuse, just what precisely are the options for Brexit Britain? Ineffably pitiful stuff.

LOL,saying the US must compromise isn't threatening-thats called wanting to negotiate .Stop being so melodramatic,even I know you're better than that fuaranach!

davedanon

That whole piece is nonsense. Trump has no idea what he's talking about, as usual. Congress and Ways & Means Committee will throttle anything he produces.

Danzy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Follow the money. This is what the British finances are when the economy is supposedly good and they are not in a recession:

UK government borrowing surges ahead of Brexit deadline: Budget deficit jumps 60% between April and July to £16bn, new figures show

No doubt at this stage the Brexiteers are so sure they can scapegoat the EU for everything that they're "in for a penny, in for a pound" and getting loads of other spending covered under this guise.

Who on earth would invest in an economy with such chaos? Just how low is sterling going to fall as a result of this profligate mismanagement?

The key weakness for the EU remains its economic performance. Especially that of the Eurozone, which has near stagnated for a decade at this stage and which looks like entering the next global turndown having never recovered fully from the great crash.

This is a bigger concern for the EU than Brexit.

That doesn't mean a No Deal Brexit will not tear British businesses apart. Talking to them daily, they are concerned for their future.

Johnson will not want to go down as the Angel of Death for vast sections of the British SME economy, which for all our obsession with with Multinationals is still the segment where approx 90% of people in the West work.

The EU might use a hard Brexit as an excuse for rate cuts and more QE stimulation, which long run is a dead end.

Britain will do the same.

Prestonites

Huge checks on northern side of the border from M1 to A1 and Also on Dublin Express into Lanyon place last 2 days. Sign of the times.

First Up

Prestonites wrote: »

Huge checks on northern side of the border from M1 to A1 and Also on Dublin Express into Lanyon place last 2 days. Sign of the times.

Checking what?