Will Britain ever just piss off and get on with Brexit? -mod warning in OP (21/12)

Prestonites

First Up wrote: »

Prestonites wrote: »

Huge checks on northern side of the border from M1 to A1 and Also on Dublin Express into Lanyon place last 2 days. Sign of the times.

Checking what?

Id and baggage.

InTheShadows

It's time people faced the inevitable, hard Brexit is going ahead and it doesn't matter how much slagging off the British we do we are going to have to learn to deal with it.

Some of my business interests are going to suffer but tbh when I look at the greater picture I think it's vital democracy and the will of the voting electorate is carried through on.

Prestonites

https://twitter.com/AudreyCarville/status/1165273395803688960?s=19

First Up

Prestonites wrote: »

Id and baggage.

As in a security check?

Prestonites

First Up wrote: »

Prestonites wrote: »

Id and baggage.

As in a security check?

Yes PSNI and customs officials. 37 officers 17 psni, 20 customs

First Up

Prestonites wrote: »

Yes PSNI and customs officials. 37 officers 17 psni, 20 customs

PSNI is fair enough but interesting about customs. A dry run perhaps? If so, it sort of contradicts Boris' insistence of no border.

Franz Von Peppercorn II

Are they stopping cars?

Prestonites

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

Are they stopping cars?

Yes my wife was stopped leaving the North earlier, when she rang me to tell me as im away I went to twitter seems that alot of reports.

fly_agaric

InTheShadows wrote: »

...when I look at the greater picture I think it's vital democracy and the will of the voting electorate is carried through on.

Don't think most people in UK voted for this Brexitiest of Brexits that may be coming up soon if Boris isn't lying (crash out with no agreement in place).

Going by the Brexit party support in the most recent EU elections, it is probably about 30 % of the 40 % of so of electorate enthused enough about the issue to come out for an EU election and vote to give the EU a two fingered salute.

There's a significant minority that want this extreme outcome but doubt if it is (or ever was) the "will of the people", even among those voting for Conservative party in general elections.

InTheShadows

InTheShadows wrote: »

when I look at the greater picture I think it's vital democracy and the will of the voting electorate is carried through on.

Could we gerrymander a partition of England so, just so that the will of all those pro-EU people in London and so on can be equally respected? Surely you couldn't force them to leave the EU against their will? If it's good enough for India and Ireland, surely a good, decent partition is good enough for England?

I look forward to a part of England being under EU rule as long as it's the "wishes of the majority" there to remain part of the EU. We could call the new state the 'United Kingdom of the EU and South-East England'?

Peregrinus

InTheShadows wrote: »

It's time people faced the inevitable, hard Brexit is going ahead and it doesn't matter how much slagging off the British we do we are going to have to learn to deal with it.

Some of my business interests are going to suffer but tbh when I look at the greater picture I think it's vital democracy and the will of the voting electorate is carried through on.

Although, clearly, no deal Brexit is not the will of the voting electorate, and can only be implmented by undemocratic means.

ohnonotgmail

InTheShadows wrote: »

It's time people faced the inevitable, hard Brexit is going ahead and it doesn't matter how much slagging off the British we do we are going to have to learn to deal with it.

Some of my business interests are going to suffer but tbh when I look at the greater picture I think it's vital democracy and the will of the voting electorate is carried through on.

Parliament has already voted twice (or is it three times) against a no deal Brexit so how is a no deal brexit democratic? Bearing in mind that the UK is a parliamentary democracy where parliament is supreme.

Seth Brundle

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Parliament has already voted twice (or is it three times) against a no deal Brexit so how is a no deal brexit democratic? Bearing in mind that the UK is a parliamentary democracy where parliament is supreme.

Ok so what has Westminster agreed that it actually does want?

ohnonotgmail

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ok so what has Westminster agreed that it actually does want?

Oh it hasn't but it has said multiple times now that it does not want a no deal. I dont think parliament could make it any clearer that it does not want a no deal brexit.

Dytalus

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Oh it hasn't but it has said multiple times now that it does not want a no deal. I dont think parliament could make it any clearer that it does not want a no deal brexit.

Acts which (while fundamentally useless in stopping No Deal) will be used by the Brexiters as proof that the only reason this is so hard for the UK is because there are traitors in Parliament who want to stop Brexit.

Voting against No Deal removed their trump card, y'see? Or...something....

The fact they voted against No Deal will probably lead to a final vote on May's Deal or something. For a while there, I was starting to believe there could be No Deal but now, I don't it's possible.

ohnonotgmail

Dytalus wrote: »

Acts which (while fundamentally useless in stopping No Deal) will be used by the Brexiters as proof that the only reason this is so hard for the UK is because there are traitors in Parliament who want to stop Brexit.

Voting against No Deal removed their trump card, y'see? Or...something....

not in the slightest.

Eric Cartman

I genuinely believe there are some members of parliament who will foolishly just vote whatever way they think will stop a majority in some vague hope that the whole thing just goes away. I think everyone else should be working together to form a deal to bring the hardcore brexiteers and Boris in with the moderates rather than the hardcore and Boris finding the bare minimum they can to get them over the line with some of the moderates.

Other than leaving with some form of deal, whatever happens will have people screaming that is was anti democratic.

Boris is the reason the UK is in this mess.
Corbyn is the reason it can't get out of it.

Amazed that the UK has ended up with such dividing leaders anyone but Corbyn and there would have been a no confidence vote passed

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Boris is the reason the UK is in this mess.
Corbyn is the reason it can't get out of it.

Amazed that the UK has ended up with such dividing leaders anyone but Corbyn and there would have been a no confidence vote passed

There are no leaders unfortunately, just personalities

There's a very good video on The Irish Times website today interviewing people in Holyhead in Wales, which voted for Brexit, about how they feel now:

Holyhead on Brexit: 'We were led like lambs to the slaughter'


From those people it seems they're just blaming the EU for globalisation - the supermarkets being built on the outskirts of the town leading to Holyhead's decay (Surely it was their local politicians who granted that planning permission and had nothing to do with the EU?), the factories closing, and so forth - when it was a British politician in the form of Margaret Thatcher who was far and away the strongest proponent of "free market" right-wing capitalism in all of Europe.

The Holyhead councillor who thinks that if they leave the EU Holyhead will have the freedom to become a port of global importance was asked by the interviewer was he being realistic, he responds "If you haven't got any ambition, you'll never get anywhere." Jesus. The stupidity of the people who follow these snake oil salesmen and charlatans is abject.

ChikiChiki

Deleted User wrote: »

There's a very good video on The Irish Times website today interviewing people in Holyhead in Wales, which voted for Brexit, about how they feel now:

Holyhead on Brexit: 'We were led like lambs to the slaughter'


From those people it seems they're just blaming the EU for globalisation - the supermarkets being built on the outskirts of the town leading to Holyhead's decay (Surely it was their local politicians who granted that planning permission and had nothing to do with the EU?), the factories closing, and so forth - when it was a British politician in the form of Margaret Thatcher who was far and away the strongest proponent of "free market" right-wing capitalism in all of Europe.

The Holyhead councillor who thinks that if they leave the EU Holyhead will have the freedom to become a port of global importance was asked by the interviewer was he being realistic, he responds "If you haven't got any ambition, you'll never get anywhere." Jesus. The stupidity of the people who follow these snake oil salesmen and charlatans is abject.

Passed through it many times. ****hole is being kind. Very insular backwards thinking folk.

MrMusician18

ChikiChiki wrote: »

Passed through it many times. ****hole is being kind. Very insular backwards thinking folk.

If I remember correctly, Anglesey is the poorest region in the UK.

Presumably it was containerization that destroyed the town. It's an awful kip.

Peregrinus

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Ok so what has Westminster agreed that it actually does want?

It hasn't agreed on anything that it wants.

The closest it came was with the Brady amendment, where a slim majority voted to approve the WA provided the backstop was removed and replaced with something else, but there's no agreement in Westminster (never mind any agreement with the EU) about what the "something else" might be.

Peregrinus

Aegir wrote: »

Other than leaving with some form of deal, whatever happens will have people screaming that is was anti democratic.

Leaving with a deal will also be described as anti-democratic, both by Hard Brexiters who will insist that the deal is not the True Brexit™ that people voted for in 2016, and by Remainers who will insist that a majority now want to remain, or that a majority do not approve of the deal, or both of these things.

But, if we're honest, Brexit is fated to be denounced as undemocratic because there has, in truth, been a substantial democratic deficit in the way the project has been advanced and implemented. Brexiters haven't sought to implement Brexit in a democratic way because of an awareness that, if they did, there were unlikely to secure the Brexit they wanted.

ILoveYourVibes

If he wants to leave with no deal he will have to suspend parliament. He has already sought legal advice on such a situation.

There will be uproar in the uk.

Peregrinus

He may not have to suspend parliament. It remains to be seen whether parliament can get its act together, soon enough, to take the kind of actions that would be needed to force Johnson to seek and accept a deferral.

(And of course there is nothing Parliament can do to force the EU to grant a deferral. Nobody has really considered the question of how the EU will react if Boris is forced by Parliament to seek a deferral that he doesn't, in fact, want and has no plans to use in any constructive way.)

A refusal of an extension would be a sight to behold. The frantic efforts to reframe "They're trying to trap us." to "They're don't want us and they want a border in Ireland."