Taking a child out of gaelscoil?

G&T22

Hi
My 6 yr old had an assesment by a psychologist. He has just finished junior infants in a gaelscoil. The psychologist has now recommended we take him out of the gael scoil (which he loves) and put him into a English speaking school and to keep him back a year. I was very shocked to hear this. He has language difficulties and is at the fifth percentile. I just don't know where to go from here... schools are closed...any advice would be appreciated.

byhookorbycrook

Has he had a speech and language assessment?If not, that would be my next port of call.

Most children with SEN can do as well in an Irish-medium school as they will in an English speaking one.I'm surprised the psychologist mentioned "keeping a child " back, all of the research says that this isn't helpful at best and can seriously impact on a child's self esteem.
https://www.cdl.org/articles/grade-retention-achievement-and-mental-health-outcomes/

G&T22

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Has he had a speech and language assessment?If not, that would be my next port of call.

Most children with SEN can do as well in an Irish-medium school as they will in an English speaking one.I'm surprised the psychologist mentioned "keeping a child " back, all of the research says that this isn't helpful at best and can seriously impact on a child's self esteem.
https://www.cdl.org/articles/grade-retention-achievement-and-mental-health-outcomes/

Yes. He was attending the primary care team s&l for about 8 weeks and was called back for a review this week. He only did half of the assesment last week so due back again this week. He refused to complete it saying he didn't know the answer. I plan on talking to her this week about what was said.

The psychologist said; research tells us, which is that students that are struggling to acquire their first language struggle significantly in a second language.

seasidedub

Bull, bull, bull. Kids can learn 2nd, 3rd and more languages easily. My daughter was born abroad and went to kindergarten , primary and secondary school in that country via the language of that country. When she was little she had the usual state psychology assessment to id any issues in kids. He told me that speaking one language in school and another at home was "confusing " her. Nonsense. There are bilingual kids all over the world. I just pressed on. Knowing 2 languages natively has meant she learns new ones in about 2 months. She studies language in uni here in Dublin and is on her 6th now.
Get a psychologist who understands about language and will work with you.

Stephen15

If the child is happy in the Gaelscoil why take him/her out. If the child is having difficulties with the Irish speaking element then they wouldn't love being in a Gaelscoil surely.

G&T22

The fact that he is not grasping his first language well at all is the problem which leads to problems in learning everything through Irish. Well that was my understanding of what was said. She is a very good psychologist and have had her recomendation from an OT and through a resource teacher I know said she is very reputiple. I am just so shocked with her suggestion I have been in turmoil all day and feel so guilty even though I know I shouldn't... I appreciate all of the replies and points of view it will help me consider our next step.

Corca Baiscinn

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Has he had a speech and language assessment?If not, that would be my next port of call.

Most children with SEN can do as well in an Irish-medium school as they will in an English speaking one.I'm surprised the psychologist mentioned "keeping a child " back, all of the research says that this isn't helpful at best and can seriously impact on a child's self esteem.
https://www.cdl.org/articles/grade-retention-achievement-and-mental-health-outcomes/

I haven't read your link yet but but while it may be the case in general that a child with an SEN will do fine in a Gaelscoil remember that the op says that the difficulty refers specifically to language so that puts a different complexion on it

Corca Baiscinn

Stephen15 wrote: »

If the child is happy in the Gaelscoil why take him/her out. If the child is having difficulties with the Irish speaking element then they wouldn't love being in a Gaelscoil surely.

He has only finished Junior Infants so the actual amount of Irish has been scanty so far one assumes and he may well love the teacher, the atmosphere, being with his friends etc

Tigerandahalf

The psychologist is correct here. If your child is struggling to speak its first language (its primary means of communicating) it won't help them by being in a classroom where a different language is spoken.

You don't say why your child has issues with language - is it hearing related, language delay or some other issue.

Nothing wrong with keeping a kid at a class level for a 2nd year either. They may benefit from it hugely especially in the early years.

Corca Baiscinn

G&T22 wrote: »

The fact that he is not grasping his first language well at all is the problem which leads to problems in learning everything through Irish. Well that was my understanding of what was said. She is a very good psychologist and have had her recomendation from an OT and through a resource teacher I know said she is very reputiple. I am just so shocked with her suggestion I have been in turmoil all day and feel so guilty even though I know I shouldn't... I appreciate all of the replies and points of view it will help me consider our next step.

OP of course its understandable that you're in turmoil so take some time to absorb the advice and results and of course you have to complete the other half of the assessment which might clarify things a bit. The advice above re bilingualism being no problem for children is not relevant in your case because you are talking as you said re acquisition of his first language. I would be inclined to listen carefully to the psychologist's advice re change of school even though of course it will be disruptive, maybe not even easy depending on where you live. Not trying to add to your stress but bear in mind it might even be recommended that your boy be exempted from Irish to avoid confusion.

Ask the psychologist and the SLT re how you can help him yourselves over the summer . Also while schools are closed its only since last Thurs/Fri, so principals may still be around doing end of year admin or the school may be running courses so there may be someone to talk to.

I'd be a bit concerned re the blow to his self-esteem of repeating the year. I wonder could he proceed to Senior Infants and avail of resource teaching. Is he barely 6 or well 6 and is he small or big for his age? More children are 5 than 4 now starting off so maybe the gap isn't so bad.

As for the guilt, again, most of us have been there over some aspect of parenting so dont beat yourself up

Tigerandahalf

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

He has only finished Junior Infants so the actual amount of Irish has been scanty so far one assumes and he may well love the teacher, the atmosphere, being with his friends etc

Gaelscoileanna have a 'total immersion' policy so it could be the case that Irish is only spoken in the classroom except for English/phonics lessons.

Reati

G&T22 wrote: »

The psychologist said; research tells us, which is that students that are struggling to acquire their first language struggle significantly in a second language.

Research tells us lots of stuff doesn't mean it applies. I'd be asking to see said research and note the assumptions and proven causations.

Anyway, just to clarify, is your child is struggling with English but is OK with Irish? Or struggling with both?

G&T22

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

The psychologist is correct here. If your child is struggling to speak its first language (its primary means of communicating) it won't help them by being in a classroom where a different language is spoken.

You don't say why your child has issues with language - is it hearing related, language delay or some other issue.


Nothing wrong with keeping a kid at a class level for a 2nd year either. They may benefit from it hugely especially in the early years.

It is speech and language delay. He can still talk the hind legs off a donkey! He also has fine motor skills problems.

Corca Baiscinn

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Gaelscoileanna have a 'total immersion' policy so it could be the case that Irish is only spoken in the classroom except for English/phonics lessons.

Yes of course, I meant that since most of the children likely come from English speaking homes and are aged 5 ad settling in to a new environment, the instructions/dialogue are likely simple, "Suígí síos", "Tógaigí sos a pháistí", "Amach libh" or whatever Likely not overly stressful as mouthfuls of sentences not required from the children

Reati

G&T22 wrote: »

It is speech and language delay. He can still talk the hind legs off a donkey! He also has fine motor skills problems.

I guess it comes down to why you have the child in a Gaelscoil now. For example, If you have a passion for Irish and want them to be a fluent strong speaker of it, then you will need to work a plan for the child to stay at the Gaelscoil.

If they are there for other reasons, it's worth asking which is more important, solving the language delay issues with English or them having Irish.

I'd argue having both languages should be the goal and a action plan to solve the other issues at play is drawn up. I'm biased though as I believe bilingualism is a key skill that all child and adults should aim to have.

Tigerandahalf

G&T22 wrote: »

It is speech and language delay. He can still talk the hind legs off a donkey! He also has fine motor skills problems.

Is it that he is difficult to understand and not pronouncing his words correctly so?

I would have his hearing tested. You could then rule that out.
When you say he has motor skill issues this could also mean that the muscles in his mouth that control how he makes sounds may also be affected/delayed.

Was he in preschool?

G&T22

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Is it that he is difficult to understand and not pronouncing his words correctly so?

I would have his hearing tested. You could then rule that out.
When you say he has motor skill issues this could also mean that the muscles in his mouth that control how he makes sounds may also be affected/delayed.

Was he in preschool?

Hearing all good. Fine motor skills i.e. writing, cutting but has really come on in this area. Prnoucination is part but understanding questions also. Today he didn't understand what backwards was. Or he couldn't tell you why say 2 items are similar. A swing and a slide why are they similar? He could not answer that.

G&T22

G&T22 wrote: »

Hearing all good. Fine motor skills i.e. writing, cutting but has really come on in this area. Prnoucination is part but understanding questions also. Today he didn't understand what backwards was. Or he couldn't tell you why say 2 items are similar. A swing and a slide why are they similar? He could not answer that.

Sorry just to add he attended preschool for 2 terms. They reported fine motor skills issues which I was working with him on.

ted1

G&T22 wrote: »

Hi
My 6 yr old had an assesment by a psychologist. He has just finished junior infants in a gaelscoil. The psychologist has now recommended we take him out of the gael scoil (which he loves) and put him into a English speaking school and to keep him back a year. I was very shocked to hear this. He has language difficulties and is at the fifth percentile. I just don't know where to go from here... schools are closed...any advice would be appreciated.

I’d get a second opinion. I bet the feeling that he doesn’t understand how GaelScoils work

Tigerandahalf

G&T22 wrote: »

Hearing all good. Fine motor skills i.e. writing, cutting but has really come on in this area. Prnoucination is part but understanding questions also. Today he didn't understand what backwards was. Or he couldn't tell you why say 2 items are similar. A swing and a slide why are they similar? He could not answer that.

That is definitely an area for a psychologist to look at. Perhaps he has difficulty with picturing things in his head and memory issues.

Most kids will know what a slide or swing is having been on them. Was he shown pictures of a slide/swing or just had the words spoken to him? I presume the word 'similar' wasn't just used - using phrases like 'are they different?', 'why is this not a slide?' would be more appropriate for a 5/6 year old.

byhookorbycrook

I’d await the second part of the SLT assessment before rushing into anything . Some psychologists seem to recommend moving a child from a Gaelscoil as a default.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

I would ignore the advice given. It's fluff. The child's happy, leave him be.

Calhoun

Was the psychologist brought in by the school or how did it work? What has the existing school done for his development plan if anything?

I wouldn't be pulling him out of anything until they let you know how they are meeting his needs.

Has the SENO being involved?

James Bond Junior

Lorelei Narrow Ritual wrote: »

I would ignore the advice given. It's fluff. The child's happy, leave him be.

On what grounds would you say it is fluff?

G&T22

Calhoun wrote: »

Was the psychologist brought in by the school or how did it work? What has the existing school done for his development plan if anything?

I wouldn't be pulling him out of anything until they let you know how they are meeting his needs.

Has the SENO being involved?

He was referred by an OT not the school. The school have a good set up regarding resource teaching but I really need to have a meeting with the teaching team going forward.

G&T22

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That is definitely an area for a psychologist to look at. Perhaps he has difficulty with picturing things in his head and memory issues.

Most kids will know what a slide or swing is having been on them. Was he shown pictures of a slide/swing or just had the words spoken to him? I presume the word 'similar' wasn't just used - using phrases like 'are they different?', 'why is this not a slide?' would be more appropriate for a 5/6 year old.

He was shown a picture of 3 items and to pick out the two that were similar which he did. He was asked to say why they are alike or similar as in they are both in a playground or you can play on them etc

Kathnora

As an experienced primary teacher I think children should only be sent to a gaelscoil if the Irish language is an integral part of the child's life and not just something that's used during school hours only. So many children who attend a gaelscoil never encounter Irish outside of their school day. Many parents don't speak it or have lost it (and of course that's one of the motivating factors behind sending a child to a gaelscoil). Of course the average child who attends a gaelscoil will benefit and have an advantage over other children when they enter secondary school. I get all that. But, a child with S&L difficulties is struggling right now. Ok, byhookorbycrook recommended waiting on the outcome of the final assessment before making a final decision...fair enough. The child's first language is English and presumably that is the language he hears most often. He needs support and resource teaching. He needs time to catch up on his peers if he is experiencing a difficulty in processing and understanding language and in the past year he has been immersed in a whole new language. I feel so sorry for the child. Ok, the child is happy in the school but that is not a good enough reason for leaving him there. Yes, being happy is important and children learn better when they are content and stress free but we all send our children to school to learn and reach their potential. I think that has to be the priority in this case. Every parent wants to do right by their child and no one wants to see a child struggle with a second language when they have issues with their first language. A move to another school may be daunting but children are very adaptable and such challenges can often turn out to be "a 9 day wonder". Parents can often worry a lot more than the children do!
Some posters suggested that a second language should be no bother but I think they are forgetting that perhaps their children are very bright whizz kids and the op's child has specific difficulties right now.

Calhoun

You really need to think it over OP and consider what is best for your child. Remember that the person that is best advocate for your child is yourself.

The school and teachers may not necessarily have your childs best interest at heart and could be looking to just pass a problem on. I am not saying that is happening in this case but as a father of a daughter with special needs i have had our school try and get us voluntarily to pull her from school, and even go as far as suggesting we don't bring her to social events like a sports day.

There is statutory protection for children when it comes to education and that is not just in terms of the learning but also social skills, so you have to make sure that they have at least being trying to work with your child.

I would also not pull them out voluntarily without making sure you have the support in place elsewhere.

Reati

Kathnora wrote: »

As an experienced primary teacher I think children should only be sent to a gaelscoil if the Irish language is an integral part of the child's life and not just something that's used during school hours only. So many children who attend a gaelscoil never encounter Irish outside of their school day.

I agree and disagree but that's for another thread.

You have touched on a point I was tried to ask earlier about what the goal of having the child in the Gaelscoil is and taking that into account when making a next step decision.

G&T22

Thanks everyone. We are making inquiries to send him to an English speaking school. We have spoken to a principal but it has to go to the board .management?

byhookorbycrook

No, not at all.

byhookorbycrook

Calhoun wrote: »

The school and teachers may not necessarily have your childs best interest at heart and could be looking to just pass a problem on.

Sorry, have to reply to this. The school weren't involved in what the psychologist said. I take exception to you saying a school/teacher won't act in the best interest of children in our care as well. Why on earth would an SEN teacher not want what's best for a child?

Calhoun

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Sorry, have to reply to this. The school weren't involved in what the psychologist said. I take exception to you saying a school/teacher won't act in the best interest of children in our care as well. Why on earth would an SEN teacher not want what's best for a child?

I didn't know the school wasn't involved hence why i clarified.

I wasn't talking about SEN teacher, for the most part they know the score and want whats best for the child. I am mainly talking about non sen teachers and at a push the principals.

As i said we had a situation where our teacher was implying we should move the child from the school voluntarily. They also asked off the record if we would leave her home from the sports day. How is socially excluding a child in the best interest? It doesn't really give a whole we are inclusive feel.

G&T22

Just an update. We have got our son a place in pur local English school. I think this is the best for him with the information we have. Hopefully he will settle in. Doing a summer camp there so he can get a feel for the place. Thank you for all of your opinions.

byhookorbycrook

G&T22 wrote: »

Just an update. We have got our son a place in pur local English school. I think this is the best for him with the information we have. Hopefully he will settle in. Doing a summer camp there so he can get a feel for the place. Thank you for all of your opinions.

The best of luck to you all.

deirdremf

Kathnora wrote: »

As an experienced primary teacher I think children should only be sent to a gaelscoil if the Irish language is an integral part of the child's life and not just something that's used during school hours only.

I have just seen this, and I thank you for clearly setting out your opinion that all children should be educated in their home language.


It's a valid ideological point of view, but a great many studies internationally validate education in a second language. You obviously disagree with all of that documentation (presumably you have read a lot of it, and have reasoned arguments against it?)


It also means that you are disagreeing with most parents who send their children to a Gaelscoil, 95% of whom do not speak Irish in the home.


You are in fact disagreeing with the raison d'etre for the Gaelscoil movement, which of course you are entitled to do.


However, you came onto this thread with the statement that you are an experienced primary teacher, thus setting yourself up as an expert in the eyes of the parent whose child was attending a Gaelscoil, when it is clear to all that you have actually got an axe to grind - made even more obvious by your single long paragraph - always a give-away.


This is unfortunate, and given that you do not know the child in question I would expect you to be more circumspect - if indeed you have any experience as a primary teacher.


There is nothing new about diatribes like yours.


I know a woman who was being brought up through Irish, and was apparently slow to speak. A doctor advised the parents to speak to the child in English, which they did, and thus engineered language change in the whole famaliy.


The child in question grew up to work in 3rd level education, and to speak a second and third language - but not Irish.
The doctor either had no idea of what he was talking about in the first place, or he had preconceived ideas; perhaps both.
I suspect that the same cap fits yourself.

heldel00

^^^ attack the post, not the poster.

deirdremf

heldel00 wrote: »

^^^ attack the post, not the poster.

A fair point, on the face of it; however the poster claimed to be an expert by dint of being a primary school teacher. We have no way of knowing whether this is true, or what relevant qualifications the poster has to give this advice.
The poster tells us that s/he is not in favour of children being sent to a Gaelscoil unless they have Irish in the home, though, so this must be kept in mind when evaluating any advice they give.

I'd consider myself quite knowledgeable on the subject - but certainly not enough to "advise" the OP as this poster did.

To recap, the OP's child was attending school X, and the child was attending an OT to improve motor skills.
On the advice of the OT the child was brought to a psychologist who said the child should be taken out of the Gaelscoil.

Would it be usual for an OT to give this sort of advice? I don't know, but it seems strange to me.

In fact, the whole situation seems unusual to me to say the least.