Random EV thoughts.....

innrain

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-news/2021/ecotricity-and-gridserve-to-power-the-electric-highway
Gridserve bought 25% of Ecotricity. They are going to replace 300 old chargers "by this summer" while also deploying HPCs.

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-news/2021/ecotricity-and-gridserve-to-power-the-electric-highway
Gridserve bought 25% of Ecotricity. They are going to replace 300 old chargers "by this summer" while also deploying HPCs.

Great, can they buy ESB while they're at

KCross

innrain wrote: »

https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-news/2021/ecotricity-and-gridserve-to-power-the-electric-highway
Gridserve bought 25% of Ecotricity. They are going to replace 300 old chargers "by this summer" while also deploying HPCs.

Gridserve is the dream!

Just to remind people what their vision looks like...

UK folks have been complaining about Ecotricity now for years as their chargers were a decade old, single points of failure in alot of cases and they had a stranglehold on the MSA's in the UK... I'd say they got a nice chunk of money off Gridserve to open up that monopoly they had!

Havent watched this one yet...

Black_Knight

KCross wrote: »

Gridserve is the dream!

Just to remind people what their vision looks like...

UK folks have been complaining about Ecotricity now for years as their chargers were a decade old, single points of failure in alot of cases and they had a stranglehold on the MSA's in the UK... I'd say they got a nice chunk of money off Gridserve to open up that monopoly they had!

Havent watched this one yet...

Don't get the NI folks all excited. Britain's motorways, not the UK. NI is doomed for another while longer.

JohnC.

Am I reading that right? 6 to 12 HPC through the whole of GB? And it says "pumps" rather than hubs. Doesn't sound that great.

innrain

JohnC. wrote: »

Am I reading that right? 6 to 12 HPC through the whole of GB? And it says "pumps" rather than hubs. Doesn't sound that great.

Ecotricity ranked last (16) in a top of UK charging providers.
https://www.zap-map.com/revealed-uks-top-ranking-electric-vehicle-networks/
They have to adress this before going to invest into HPC.
This is showing us how a small market we are, with just 4 players.

Silent Running

KCross wrote: »

Gridserve is the dream!

Just to remind people what their vision looks like...



UK folks have been complaining about Ecotricity now for years as their chargers were a decade old, single points of failure in alot of cases and they had a stranglehold on the MSA's in the UK... I'd say they got a nice chunk of money off Gridserve to open up that monopoly they had!

Havent watched this one yet...

With a lot of time spent at Ecotricity chargers under my belt. This is music to my ears.

the_amazing_raisin

Volkswagen presented it Tesla inspired BatteryPower Day

https://www.electrive.com/2021/03/05/vw-aims-for-70-ev-sales-in-europe-by-2030/

There's a few key points

VW are developing a 'standard' battery cell which can handle different chemistrys and will be manufactured by different providers. Aim is to get cost down by 50%

The new cell will be a cell-to-pack design without the need for modules

Cheaper EVs will use LFP cells, performance cars from Porsche & Audi will use cells bought in from other providers

Aiming for 240GWh battery production by 2030 from 6 European plants. Some of these will be operated by VW, others by external manufactuers such as Northvolt

Some quick math on the above gives 4 million EVs per year by 2030, assuming 60kWh per vehicle. So the target of 70% pure EV sales in Europe seems realistic

VW is looking to build 18,000 150kW+ chargers throughout Europe by partnering with local energy companies (BP, Iberdola & Enel were mentioned). They're also keeping their stake in Ionity

MEB cars will support bidirectional power from 2022, although there's no mention of whether the inverter will be in car or external. A V2G wallbox is mentioned which could indicate an external inverter

Overall, there's a lot of big numbers coming from VW. Hopefully they can deliver on their promises

MJohnston

It’ll be great to have the Germans on the case of battery technology! If nothing else, it provides a diversity of companies driving the technology forward, rather than just relying on a certain now-monarchical US-centric company.

AndyBoBandy

MJohnston wrote: »

It’ll be great to have the Germans on the case of battery technology! If nothing else, it provides a diversity of companies driving the technology forward, rather than just relying on a certain now-monarchical US-centric company.

at least there'll be someone doing it with a sense of humour...

the_amazing_raisin

MJohnston wrote: »

It’ll be great to have the Germans on the case of battery technology! If nothing else, it provides a diversity of companies driving the technology forward, rather than just relying on a certain now-monarchical US-centric company.

The more the merrier, and I like that they've built in battery recycling from the start with 95% of the pack being recovered

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

VW is looking to build 18,000 150kW+ chargers throughout Europe by partnering with local energy companies (BP, Iberdola & Enel were mentioned). They're also keeping their stake in Ionity

If you have a good enough network you don't need big batteries even if you are giving the Customers a few thousand units of free high speed charging for a the first few years.
VAG would much prefer to be selling cars with 2000 euro less of batteries in them and getting Customers to pay 2000 or 3000 euro in near pure profit for slightly larger alloys and metallic paint and colour coded vents or all of that other stuff that is onboard but not enabled unless you pay a price.
A 45kwh battery that can take 80 or 100kw for a good proportion of the charge cycle can travel huge distances. If you can get the cars charging fast and automatically registered when they hook up to the charger you can increase the utilisation on the charge network and avoid having to install so much infrastructure.

ELM327

VW/VAG seem to have a good charging curve too, looking at the likes of etron, taycan etc (I have not seen ID 3/4 charge curve yet)

the_amazing_raisin

Deleted User wrote: »

If you have a good enough network you don't need big batteries even if you are giving the Customers a few thousand units of free high speed charging for a the first few years.
VAG would much prefer to be selling cars with 2000 euro less of batteries in them and getting Customers to pay 2000 or 3000 euro in near pure profit for slightly larger alloys and metallic paint and colour coded vents or all of that other stuff that is onboard but not enabled unless you pay a price.
A 45kwh battery that can take 80 or 100kw for a good proportion of the charge cycle can travel huge distances. If you can get the cars charging fast and automatically registered when they hook up to the charger you can increase the utilisation on the charge network and avoid having to install so much infrastructure.

Spot on! It's also a great selling point for EVs that have a good charging network to back them up (Tesla)


VW would likely be able to sell more cars if they can say to potential customers that there'll be no problems finding a charger


They may also be able to generate a decent income out of the charging network in time

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

VW/VAG seem to have a good charging curve too, looking at the likes of etron, taycan etc (I have not seen ID 3/4 charge curve yet)

The ID cars aren't as good as the E-Tron, but they don't have the same size buffer in the battery


They're pretty good if you can get the battery nearly empty and warm, they generally seem to keep full power up to 30% and will still take 50kW at 80%



The main bonus is that when OTA updates are rolled out then VW can change the charging curve at will same as Tesla. It's likely they're being conservative at the moment until they get an idea of the battery degredation


I imageine the budget model ID cars using LFP cells will have a somewhat slower curve. But if they can make an electric Polo with ~45kWh and for under €20k I reckon they'll have people queueing up to buy one

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Spot on! It's also a great selling point for EVs that have a good charging network to back them up (Tesla)


VW would likely be able to sell more cars if they can say to potential customers that there'll be no problems finding a charger


They may also be able to generate a decent income out of the charging network in time

I don't think they'll ever make large profits out of charger network. People will buy the right size of battery that allows them to satisfy 95 to 99% of their charging needs at home and then just need the safety blanket of being able to add 150km of range in 15 minutes on exceptional long journeys.
If that is the mentality which becomes prevalent in consumers then very little will be earned from the charging network and the Manufacturer will just try to push fast chargers so they need to have maybe 4 pieces of hardware at a motorway service station instead of 8.

I believe VW ID3 costing more for 100kw charging instead of 50kw is counter-productive to their best interests. There is talk of mid year firmware upgrades which will push up charging speeds from 50kw/100kw to more e.g. 65/120kw.

the_amazing_raisin

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think they'll ever make large profits out of charger network. People will buy the right size of battery that allows them to satisfy 95 to 99% of their charging needs at home and then just need the safety blanket of being able to add 150km of range in 15 minutes on exceptional long journeys.
If that is the mentality which becomes prevalent in consumers then very little will be earned from the charging network and the Manufacturer will just try to push fast chargers so they need to have maybe 4 pieces of hardware at a motorway service station instead of 8.

I believe VW ID3 costing more for 100kw charging instead of 50kw is counter-productive to their best interests. There is talk of mid year firmware upgrades which will push up charging speeds from 50kw/100kw to more e.g. 65/120kw.

If you look at some of Bjorn Nyland's videos from last summer, all the fast charging sites in Norway were jammed up with EVs. I'd say they made a bit of profit off the chargers then


But yes, it's probably not realistic to make money all year round with fast chargers.


However, they do have one great advantage which is that someone is stuck there for around 15-20 mins (going by VW's projected charging times) and will probably want a coffee and a nice pastry



I imagine once EVs get to the point where there's a fairly constant stream of cars charging, then charging companies will start demanding money from site owners to build charging stops there


If you look at the Gridserve site in the UK with 30x fast chargers, I imagine they're making most of their money from renting out retail space to Costa and WH Smith and the charging barely pays for itself

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

If you look at some of Bjorn Nyland's videos from last summer, all the fast charging sites in Norway were jammed up with EVs. I'd say they made a bit of profit off the chargers then


But yes, it's probably not realistic to make money all year round with fast chargers.


However, they do have one great advantage which is that someone is stuck there for around 15-20 mins (going by VW's projected charging times) and will probably want a coffee and a nice pastry



I imagine once EVs get to the point where there's a fairly constant stream of cars charging, then charging companies will start demanding money from site owners to build charging stops there


If you look at the Gridserve site in the UK with 30x fast chargers, I imagine they're making most of their money from renting out retail space to Costa and WH Smith and the charging barely pays for itself

Dwell time is too long compared to the fossil fuel customer who pays 1-2cpl in margin, and buys a coffee and muffin, in 5 mins.


Gridserve is powered largely by solar so it's "free". Unless lots of people plug in. They make more money on the rental of unit space for sure.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

Dwell time is too long compared to the fossil fuel customer who pays 1-2cpl in margin, and buys a coffee and muffin, in 5 mins.

You're obviously a bit quicker than me, I don't think I'd get out of a service station in under 10 mins and that's with time to fill the car, get coffee and donut, and pay



And if you've kids and the missus needing food and bathroom breaks, you'd be doing well to get away in under 30 mins

eagerv

The other day I had barely time for a Pee, Coffee and a few quick calls. Being a man I don't do multitasking . If the charging was much quicker something would have to be omitted..



And if it wasn't free (atm) I would have only stayed half the time, enough to get home..

the_amazing_raisin

eagerv wrote: »

The other day I had barely time for a Pee, Coffee and a few quick calls. Being a man I don't do multitasking . If the charging was much quicker something would have to be omitted..



And if it wasn't free (atm) I would have only stayed half the time, enough to get home..

It's interesting to note that you can walk away from a charger, but not from a petrol pump, so there's a couple of mins lost there


And those pay-at-pump things easily lose 5 mins from trying to get the payment to go through :rolleyes:

The Black Oil

Janey. Bjorn is pretty wiped with Covid.

Orebro

UK Government to target grants at more affordable models:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plug-in-car-van-and-truck-grant-to-be-targeted-at-more-affordable-models-to-allow-more-people-to-make-the-switch

innrain

Orebro wrote: »

UK Government to target grants at more affordable models:

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/plug-in-car-van-and-truck-grant-to-be-targeted-at-more-affordable-models-to-allow-more-people-to-make-the-switch

I think it is good as it will push manufacturers to limbo the threshold. As more and more people jump on the wagon instead of removing the subsidy completely you play hard to get.

However, " including spacious family cars, such as the Hyundai Kona 39kWh" an American reading this will choke with laughter and discredits the article for me.

ELM327

innrain wrote: »

I think it is good as it will push manufacturers to limbo the threshold. As more and more people jump on the wagon instead of removing the subsidy completely you play hard to get.

However, " including spacious family cars, such as the Hyundai Kona 39kWh" an American reading this will choke with laughter and discredits the article for me.

Don't even need to be an american to laugh at that. You'd have to chop your kids legs off to use the back seats!

markpb

innrain wrote: »

However, " including spacious family cars, such as the Hyundai Kona 39kWh" an American reading this will choke with laughter and discredits the article for me.

Peoples expectations are different in different places. I'm sure many European people would choke with laughter at the idea of their houses blowing over in a stiff breeze but that's perfectly acceptable in large parts of America. It doesn't discredit anything.

innrain

I drive a Kona. I got my driving license on a Daewoo Matiz, then owned a Fiat Punto. But I will not call Kona large family car.

the_amazing_raisin

innrain wrote: »

I think it is good as it will push manufacturers to limbo the threshold. As more and more people jump on the wagon instead of removing the subsidy completely you play hard to get.

However, " including spacious family cars, such as the Hyundai Kona 39kWh" an American reading this will choke with laughter and discredits the article for me.

I'm definitely for focusing the subsidies on lower priced cars to force manufactuers to focus on that segment, but it seems that £35k might be too low given the levels of adoption in the UK at the moment


Am I right in saying they also cut £500 from the grant, I'm fairly sure it used to be £3000?


Hopefully the Irish government doesn't get any ideas about cutting the SEAI grant

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

You're obviously a bit quicker than me, I don't think I'd get out of a service station in under 10 mins and that's with time to fill the car, get coffee and donut, and pay



And if you've kids and the missus needing food and bathroom breaks, you'd be doing well to get away in under 30 mins

Theres an argument for this, but you absolutely could fill up and leave in 5 mins.

eagerv wrote: »

The other day I had barely time for a Pee, Coffee and a few quick calls. Being a man I don't do multitasking . If the charging was much quicker something would have to be omitted..



And if it wasn't free (atm) I would have only stayed half the time, enough to get home..

This is a good point, along with the kids + pee stops etc above.
We're at an interesting point where the EVs charge too fast to be slow enough to do other things (eg if I have a meeting to join, it's 30 minutes and the car is done before the meeting ends), and too slow to be fast enough to consider it "5 mins" mentally (even if it's closer to 10).

the_amazing_raisin

The Black Oil wrote: »

Janey. Bjorn is pretty wiped with Covid.

Just watched his update yesterday, yeah he seems like a pretty unhappy camper


The low energy and generally being unable to do anything is my big worry rather than being hospitalised. With 2 small kids to look after it'd be a bit of a nightmare