Random EV thoughts.....

mr potato head

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I'd say the issue is around cost, I'm not sure what a 2MW grid connection costs but I assume it isn't cheap, especially when a service station has to stump up all of the cash for grid upgrades to their site. I'm guessing the capital outlay just didn't make sense at the moment and ESB probably weren't budging on prices so they're in limbo for now

I wonder what the cost is of the battery buffer type DC chargers that might be able to bridge the gap in some lower use areas?

innrain

RandomViewer wrote: »

Petrol station forecourts will be fitting chargers on most sites when EVs hit around 8-10%, you'll be paying €10-20 for your half hour, as the technology evolves and charging gets quicker the time will fall and you'll pay by the minute, Service stations employ thousands of people and these jobs will be protected,

Wait until the shopping centers will realize there is money to be making. Do you remember the times when cinemas were a standalone operation? Urban fuel stations won't be so protected. Not sure about motorway services as people would still need breaks but in the future of the 90kWh batteries and 15kWh/100km winter consumption you can drive point to point without the need of charging. Destination charging would be important but does not need to be in a fuel station. Can be anywhere you park your car.

RandomViewer

innrain wrote: »

Wait until the shopping centers will realize there is money to be making. Do you remember the times when cinemas were a standalone operation? Urban fuel stations won't be so protected. Not sure about motorway services as people would still need breaks but in the future of the 90kWh batteries and 15kWh/100km winter consumption you can drive point to point without the need of charging. Destination charging would be important but does not need to be in a fuel station. Can be anywhere you park your car.

Vandalism will be a risk with any street based network, let the fuel stations with their multiple cameras do the job,

MJohnston

RandomViewer wrote: »

Vandalism will be a risk with any street based network, let the fuel stations with their multiple cameras do the job,

I know you're determined to find every possible angle you can to attack EVs, but this one is truly absurd!

In the electric future (and that means fully electric - it will take decades to rid ourselves of the last ICE vehicles in ownership) there will be intercity service stations as people will want some place to stop, snack, and piss. In addition, as said above, charging points will be all over shopping centres and 'destinations'.

There might be some car wash spots or something like that around cities and towns, but we won't need filling stations to the extent that we do at the minute. Lots of prime development land that the station owners will make a pretty penny off of!

timsey tiger

MJohnston wrote: »

I know you're determined to find every possible angle you can to attack EVs, but this one is truly absurd!

In the electric future (and that means fully electric - it will take decades to rid ourselves of the last ICE vehicles in ownership) there will be intercity service stations as people will want some place to stop, snack, and piss. In addition, as said above, charging points will be all over shopping centres and 'destinations'.

There might be some car wash spots or something like that around cities and towns, but we won't need filling stations to the extent that we do at the minute. Lots of prime development land that the station owners will make a pretty penny off of!

Warning fact free post ahead

Profitability of petrol stations, will drop off a cliff when ev ownership begins to take off. This will lead to closures of forecourts esp. in valuable urban environments and it will happen a lot earlier in the adoption curve than people expect. As margins will be hit, owners of capital will wish to switch to more profitable uses with better growth potential.

the_amazing_raisin

timsey tiger wrote: »

Warning fact free post ahead

Profitability of petrol stations, will drop off a cliff when ev ownership begins to take off. This will lead to closures of forecourts esp. in valuable urban environments and it will happen a lot earlier in the adoption curve than people expect. As margins will be hit, owners of capital will wish to switch to more profitable uses with better growth potential.

Sure urban petrol stations have been closing down for years, between taxes and fuel efficiency the profit margins keep getting squeezed. Only the motorway services would have the turnover to keep a large forecourt running

I'm curious as to what the cost difference between setting up a petrol station and an EV charging hub would be. Can't see a charging hub being more expensive considering the ground works would be a fraction of what's needed for petrol tanks

slave1

timsey tiger wrote: »

Warning fact free post ahead

Profitability of petrol stations, will drop off a cliff when ev ownership begins to take off. This will lead to closures of forecourts esp. in valuable urban environments and it will happen a lot earlier in the adoption curve than people expect. As margins will be hit, owners of capital will wish to switch to more profitable uses with better growth potential.

LOL, how much do petrol stations make off a litre of fuel? Look at the wholesale rates of electricity and how much like of Ionity are charging.

When stopping for a charge folk will pop in for a tea/coffee/snack and this is where the margins are, there is significantly higher chance of this whilst waiting for an EV charge versus a liquid fuel stop....

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

LOL, how much do petrol stations make off a litre of fuel? Look at the wholesale rates of electricity and how much like of Ionity are charging.

When stopping for a charge folk will pop in for a tea/coffee/snack and this is where the margins are, there is significantly higher chance of this whilst waiting for an EV charge versus a liquid fuel stop....

I heard a quote a while back that petrol stations make more money from a cup of coffee than a €50 sale of diesel

MJohnston

slave1 wrote: »

LOL, how much do petrol stations make off a litre of fuel? Look at the wholesale rates of electricity and how much like of Ionity are charging.

When stopping for a charge folk will pop in for a tea/coffee/snack and this is where the margins are, there is significantly higher chance of this whilst waiting for an EV charge versus a liquid fuel stop....

I think the posters point was — how much are people going to bother with those kinds of long stop charges at filling stations in cities?

Wouldn't you rather do the same long charge at a Tesco, or a cinema, or a coffee shop with an on-street charger outside? Or home?

What's the need for dedicated filling station-style areas in a future where charging points are all over the place?

liamog

Currently petrol sales are co-located with convenience stores, the future is charging stations co-located with supermarkets, coffee shops and fast food restaurants.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Currently petrol sales are co-located with convenience stores, the future is charging stations co-located with supermarkets, coffee shops and fast food restaurants.

Absolutely, and if county councils had any forethought they'd be putting fast charging hubs into town centers to help bring in some business and revitalise them somewhat

I think shopping centres, supermarkets, gyms and restaurants will be the main locations for 50kW hubs. 1-2 hours parked wouldn't be abnormal for these types of business and 50kW can delivery plenty of power in that time. IMO, if you had a 300kW grid connection, then 6x 50kW chargers would be better than 2x 150kW ones

Save the HPCs for motorway services and outside citied where there's more need

AC parks for housing estates, apartments, train stations hotels and workplaces

Now I just need someone to listen to my grand plans

RandomViewer

MJohnston wrote: »

I know you're determined to find every possible angle you can to attack EVs, but this one is truly absurd!

In the electric future (and that means fully electric - it will take decades to rid ourselves of the last ICE vehicles in ownership) there will be intercity service stations as people will want some place to stop, snack, and piss. In addition, as said above, charging points will be all over shopping centres and 'destinations'.

There might be some car wash spots or something like that around cities and towns, but we won't need filling stations to the extent that we do at the minute. Lots of prime development land that the station owners will make a pretty penny off of!

Service stations is a large source of employment and revenue for the state, free charging is not something that will be happening in the future, having assigned charging stations whether at existing service stations or sectioned off area of car parks they will be for profit, most stations are on the outskirts of towns so no longer prime development

liamog

RandomViewer wrote: »

Service stations is a large source of employment and revenue for the state, free charging is not something that will be happening in the future

I don't think anyone is claiming there is a future in free charging. Charging will be supplied at cost price just as fuel is, and done so in a location that incentivises other economic activity

mfceiling

RandomViewer wrote: »

Service stations is a large source of employment and revenue for the state, free charging is not something that will be happening in the future, having assigned charging stations whether at existing service stations or sectioned off area of car parks they will be for profit, most stations are on the outskirts of towns so no longer prime development

It's not a large source of employment for the state. If it was the number of filling stations wouldn't have dropped as dramatically as it has in the last 20 years.

Of course there will be an expense to charge in the future. Government gets a huge tax take from fossil fuels and they'll need to recoup that elsewhere.

liamog

mfceiling wrote: »

Of course there will be an expense to charge in the future. Government gets a huge tax take from fossil fuels and they'll need to recoup that elsewhere.

Cost to charge will probably stay pretty flat, we're more likely to move towards a system of road usage pricing. It has the double effect of also acting as an incentive to switch, as you can make all vehicles pay the usage tax without removing the duties on petrol and diesel.

Taxing EV charging is too difficult as it's too easy to find an alternative source of electricity.

mr potato head

liamog wrote: »

we're more likely to move towards a system of road usage pricing.

I have wondered recently about the potential use of RFID toll tags for this sort of thing, why use a piece of paper for a tax disc when insurance and tax disc could be rolled into this.

I know the argument against it would be that it's essentially tracking people, so some oversight/safeguards would have to be in place.

the_amazing_raisin

mr potato head wrote: »

I have wondered recently about the potential use of RFID toll tags for this sort of thing, why use a piece of paper for a tax disc when insurance and tax disc could be rolled into this.

I know the argument against it would be that it's essentially tracking people, so some oversight/safeguards would have to be in place.

Personally I'd like to see a system where motorway tolling is a tag on/tag off system instead of a toll booth that everyone tries to avoid. Fairer IMO and better use of resources as it discourages people hopping on the motorway for a single exit

Could do something similar for cities, have congestion charges in Dublin to encourage people to use public transport or cycle

Truth be told, road tax doesn't pay for the road maintainence and hasn't for years. It's just another income source for the government. All the tax revenue goes into a single budget and is doled out by the government

liamog

Road Tax is only paid by a subset of Irish people who are angry at cyclists

Motor Tax is what everyone else pays and goes into general taxation

MJohnston

RandomViewer wrote: »

Service stations is a large source of employment and revenue for the state

Are they? I can't imagine they're a huge source of employment. They may be a source of revenue, but only in terms of fuel duty, which is going to go anyway :shrugs:

free charging is not something that will be happening in the future

It's not really something that's happening right now. Most EV owners are fine with paying for charging, given that we all used to pay much more for petrol or diesel anyway. Non-issue.

No offence, but if you're going to come into an EV thread trying to spread disinformation in order to put people off, you've definitely come to the wrong forum :pac:

timsey tiger

slave1 wrote: »

LOL, how much do petrol stations make off a litre of fuel? Look at the wholesale rates of electricity and how much like of Ionity are charging.

When stopping for a charge folk will pop in for a tea/coffee/snack and this is where the margins are, there is significantly higher chance of this whilst waiting for an EV charge versus a liquid fuel stop....

In 10,000km of ev driving, I've never once darkened the forecourt of a filling station. I used a public charger once, just to know how it was done. They may not make money form the petrol, but where is the "footfall" without it?

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Road Tax is only paid by a subset of Irish people who are angry at cyclists

Motor Tax is what everyone else pays and goes into general taxation

We should lobby to change it to 'Engine Tax' so that EVs are exempt

the_amazing_raisin

timsey tiger wrote: »

In 10,000km of ev driving, I've never once darkened the forecourt of a filling station. I used a public charger once, just to know how it was done. They may not make money form the petrol, but where is the "footfall" without it?

There's always people travelling long distances, so there'll always be some people using motorway services

As for urban chargers, there's a lot of people who have no home charging and probably won't for a long time, so they'll need to use public chargers

Silent Running

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

We should lobby to change it to 'Engine Tax' so that EVs are exempt

Well, isn't the current tax based on emissions? Yet they charge zero emission cars €120 per year.

timsey tiger

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

There's always people travelling long distances, so there'll always be some people using motorway services

As for urban chargers, there's a lot of people who have no home charging and probably won't for a long time, so they'll need to use public chargers

There are certainly people currently without access to home charging, but that won't last, the political pressure over this will increase with ev adoption and of course car ownership esp. in urban environments is going to fall, it is already doing so in the younger cohorts.

RandomViewer

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Absolutely, and if county councils had any forethought they'd be putting fast charging hubs into town centers to help bring in some business and revitalise them somewhat

I think shopping centres, supermarkets, gyms and restaurants will be the main locations for 50kW hubs. 1-2 hours parked wouldn't be abnormal for these types of business and 50kW can delivery plenty of power in that time. IMO, if you had a 300kW grid connection, then 6x 50kW chargers would be better than 2x 150kW ones

Save the HPCs for motorway services and outside citied where there's more need

AC parks for housing estates, apartments, train stations hotels and workplaces

Now I just need someone to listen to my grand plans

Don't eat the head off me but aren't the town centres to be pedestrianised

the_amazing_raisin

RandomViewer wrote: »

Don't eat the head off me but aren't the town centres to be pedestrianised

I'd actually be happy with a lot of town centers being pedestrianised or made more pedestrian friendly

There'll always be a road somewhere nearby, and a parking lot for those folks who need to drive to town, so if there was a row of chargers there that'd be an ideal setup I think

RandomViewer

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I'd actually be happy with a lot of town centers being pedestrianised or made more pedestrian friendly

There'll always be a road somewhere nearby, and a parking lot for those folks who need to drive to town, so if there was a row of chargers there that'd be an ideal setup I think

I think the Green plan will be rented parking spaces away from the town centre with some sort of bus or tram into the centre,

Kramer

RandomViewer wrote: »

I think the Green plan will be rented parking spaces away from the town centre with some sort of bus or tram into the centre,

You'd want to mind out for the wolves though .

DrPhilG

So what are the views on what happens next, with the grant changes etc. Will the overall price of EVs increase? If so, will the second hand values bump up a little too?

Or will the manufacturers all just drop their prices to match the grant reduction?

I'm still ticking over a possible e-Niro switch but I'm wondering about 2 things:

1 - will the second hand price of the Niro increase if I wait.

2 - will my i3 value increase at all if I hold off on selling it.

slave1

1 - will the second hand price of the Niro increase if I wait.
Perhaps, it's got desirable range and very good rep


2 - will my i3 value increase at all if I hold off on selling it.
I don't think so, it's an aged REX, 4 seater, both of which would go against it I think, that and less range than newer cars coming out today...