Random EV thoughts.....

pad199207

ELM327

So still nowhere near parity with ICE cars.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

So still nowhere near parity with ICE cars.

True, but that's looking more down to cartel behaviour by the car manufacturers than any real cost of materials

The Peugeot e208 is a great example, the Active Petrol costs just under €20k whereas the Active Electric costs €27.5k after grants

So where's that €7k coming from? Is the e208 that much more expensive to produce? Does Peugoet save literally nothing from not producing a petrol engine for that car?

Of course not, they can probably produce the car for only a slight amount more than the ICE version and still make a profit

It's simply that the cheapest EVs in Ireland are around the €27-29k region and all the manufacturers are selling everything they produce. So there's no reason for them to undercut one another to boost sales

water-man

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

True, but that's looking more down to cartel behaviour by the car manufacturers than any real cost of materials

Not necessarily true. While I don't work in the car industry I do work in something similar and I know form experience our Electric / hybrid machines are a good bit more expensive to manufacture and obviously they want to make the same margin. And one of the main reason for cost increase is actually the skill set to build & test them is different and they just take longer to build.

WM

cannco253

https://instavolt.co.uk/instavolt-ceo-issues-statement-in-response-to-hmrc-vat-brief-25-may-2021/

UK - reduced vat rate of 5% does not now apply to public charging, 20% vat rate should be applied.
Public charging prices to increase immediately. I presume other providers will have to do the same after Instavolt increases its prices.

I see that here we pay 13.5% reduced rate, probably only a matter of time before this gets raised?
https://www.esb.ie/ecars/news/2020/2020/06/30/ev-drivers-to-benefit-from-reduced-vat-rate-on-esb-s-public-charging-network

innrain

cannco253 wrote: »

https://instavolt.co.uk/instavolt-ceo-issues-statement-in-response-to-hmrc-vat-brief-25-may-2021/

UK - reduced vat rate of 5% does not now apply to public charging, 20% vat rate should be applied.
Public charging prices to increase immediately. I presume other providers will have to do the same after Instavolt increases its prices.

I see that here we pay 13.5% reduced rate, probably only a matter of time before this gets raised?
https://www.esb.ie/ecars/news/2020/2020/06/30/ev-drivers-to-benefit-from-reduced-vat-rate-on-esb-s-public-charging-network

No here we were charged 23% for about 10 months until Revenue decided that this services qualifies for the reduced rate.

JohnC.

Google unveil a Street View equipped I-Pace in Dublin

https://www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2021/5/25/22453703/jaguar-i-pace-google-street-view-dublin-air-quality

MJohnston

A random thought — imo “range anxiety” is not about the range that your EV will travel. It is much more about not having confidence in the estimated range your car gives you on a journey.

So, how accurate do you find the estimates that your EV gives you? Should this be a more important purchasing metric than range alone?

Irishjg

MJohnston wrote: »

A random thought — imo “range anxiety” is not about the range that your EV will travel. It is much more about not having confidence in the estimated range your car gives you on a journey.

So, how accurate do you find the estimates that your EV gives you? Should this be a more important purchasing metric than range alone?

What a great point. The fantasy figures quoted by the manufacturer in many cases bear no relation to reality. Also people need to understand that 50-10% real range is much less than 90-50%. kWh/100km is not linear and will increase at lower SOC. Then take external forces like weather and temperature into account and the figures will become even more foggy. The WLTP quoted figures cannot match real world driving.

markpb

MJohnston wrote: »

A random thought — imo “range anxiety” is not about the range that your EV will travel. It is much more about not having confidence in the estimated range your car gives you on a journey.

In my limited EV driving experience (thanks a bunch COVID!), I don’t worry about the cars estimated range much. I worry that the charge point I plan on using will be broken or in use. So now I need to act like a long distance pilot and plan on my primary and secondary charge points before I leave.

the_amazing_raisin

markpb wrote: »

In my limited EV driving experience (thanks a bunch COVID!), I don’t worry about the cars estimated range much. I worry that the charge point I plan on using will be broken or in use. So now I need to act like a long distance pilot and plan on my primary and secondary charge points before I leave.

Seconded

the_amazing_raisin

MJohnston wrote: »

A random thought — imo “range anxiety” is not about the range that your EV will travel. It is much more about not having confidence in the estimated range your car gives you on a journey.

So, how accurate do you find the estimates that your EV gives you? Should this be a more important purchasing metric than range alone?

Yeah it's very frustrating when you see ads like the ID.4 "500 km" range. I know it's based on WLTP which is lab conditions and not real world, but at the same time should it be okay to use those figures in advertising?

It's the same for ICE cars, remember when you'd get a Diesel mobile that says it'll get 70 mpg and then you can barely get above 40?

I always advise people to check EV database. It's not the best reference but you can get a good idea of the worst case

MJohnston

I’m not even referring to those kinds of lab estimated ranges, more so the onboard computer calculated estimates. If that range says 40km until empty, I’m almost certain to believe it’ll be 20km, because I don’t trust it.

Onboard range estimates seem to largely be calculated by simple averaging of usage figures.

I think it’s long past time that cars started getting better at this. They have access to current weather conditions, location, most have onboard navigation maps, etc. There’s no reason a car shouldn’t be able to look at a route and predict range much more intelligently using these “sensors” and others.

But also, I’d like to see more active testing of onboard range calculations - give cars a rating based on their onboard range accuracy, for example.

TheSpinmaster

Irishjg wrote: »

What a great point. The fantasy figures quoted by the manufacturer in many cases bear no relation to reality. Also people need to understand that 50-10% real range is much less than 90-50%. kWh/100km is not linear and will increase at lower SOC. Then take external forces like weather and temperature into account and the figures will become even more foggy. The WLTP quoted figures cannot match real world driving.

Have never heard this before (the non linear kWh/100km part). Why does it increase at lower SOC?

the_amazing_raisin

TheSpinmaster wrote: »

Have never heard this before (the non linear kWh/100km part). Why does it increase at lower SOC?

It doesn't do that for all cars but it can happen

Basically measuring the exact energy content of the battery pack is not quite straightforward

The battery management system estimates the current capacity based on the known characteristics of the battery, including the level at which the voltage is too low to provide power

Since it's an estimate, it can be inaccurate, and those inaccuracies can get worse over time as individual cells in the battery degrade faster than others

So sometimes when a car hasn't been driven down to a low SoC for a while the battery percentage will drop rapidly as it approaches zero. Basically the management system has recalibrated where the lowest SoC really is

Some cars are worse for this than others it seems, apparently the Ioniq is a bit notorious for the battery charge dropping rapidly below 50%

McGiver

slave1 wrote:

They'll have to use all the street light poles

Good idea but too low power, I hear you can get only 2 kW really out of them.

McGiver

TheSpinmaster wrote:

Have never heard this before (the non linear kWh/100km part). Why does it increase at lower SOC?

the_amazing_raisin wrote:

Basically measuring the exact energy content of the battery pack is not quite straightforward

It's more to do with non-linear discharge curve of Li-ion cells, I'd say. The top 50% of the SOC <> the bottom 50% of the SOC, in terms of energy content (power available).

Note: LFP cells suffer from this much more than NMCA cells.

Silent Running

McGiver wrote: »

Good idea but too low power, I hear you can get only 2 kW really out of them.

I don't think it's about using the current cabling. The installed infrastructure (ducts, electrical connectivity and posts) is what could be very useful.

McGiver

Silent Running wrote:

I don't think it's about using the current cabling. The installed infrastructure (ducts, electrical connectivity and posts) is what could be very useful.

Right.

If using the current cabling - they say they can give 24 A, if it's converted to a LED lamp, the supply is typically 25 A (in the UK). I think the voltage is 230 V. That gives around 5 kW single phase. Not bad actually.

While lamp posts are a good idea they aren't dense enough. It's a good start and will be a low hanging fruit for the local authorities.

These folks have very good ideas on where else to do on-street charging - limpets, geckos and armadillos. Installed on existing objects - on signposts, kerbs, walls.
https://www.connectedkerb.com

They make a good point:

Nearly half of all vehicle owners – 43% – do not have a driveway, which is why,we at Connected Kerb believe the future of electric vehicle charging will be focused on urban residential streets. Current fossil fuel forecourts will not be able to cope with expected demand and, as demand for charging increases, the UK power network will not be able to sustain a rapid charging solution for all.

The only viable option is a low power, low cost, low impact residential solution which can be rolled out nationally.

The UK power network cannot currently cope with a mass rollout of rapid chargers. Whilst rapid chargers have their place, the average time to charge is 30 minutes and the existing UK infrastructure for powering vehicles simply does not have the forecourt space to cope with multiple vehicles charging at any one time. This applies going forward too, based on the expected speeds of rapid charging over the next 20 years.

The current providers of on-street charging solutions have experienced many roadblocks to their solutions, not least cost.

The only viable solution is a rollout of a residential on street charging network.

Black_Knight

Lol at the outlander fast charging at dungarvan Nissan dealer. Commitment to freeloading.

Old diesel

Cant seem to see anything online about the new Citroen eC4 pricing or launch date for Ireland.

Does anyone have any good Citroën dealer contacts?????.

Thank you

cannco253

Has anyone used an evbox public charger before?

https://evbox.com/en/products/business-chargers/businessline

Was trying to activate it in Portumna yesterday but eCars or EasyGo card/fob didn't do anything - first time I've seen one in Galway.

Not sure if it's been switched on yet?

innrain

cannco253 wrote: »

Has anyone used an evbox public charger before?

https://evbox.com/en/products/business-chargers/businessline

Was trying to activate it in Portumna yesterday but eCars or EasyGo card/fob didn't do anything - first time I've seen one in Galway.

Not sure if it's been switched on yet?

Yes I used 2 years ago the charger from Sligo Park Hotel. https://www.plugshare.com/location/177662
They had a fob of their own @ the reception desk.
From what I see in the pictures from plugshare it seems the one you're referring is not activated as there are no lights ON.

unkel

MJohnston wrote: »

A random thought — imo “range anxiety” is not about the range that your EV will travel. It is much more about not having confidence in the estimated range your car gives you on a journey.

Exactly

MJohnston wrote: »

So, how accurate do you find the estimates that your EV gives you? Should this be a more important purchasing metric than range alone?

One of the best things about Tesla, the navigation is super accurate in terms of the percentage range left at destination. Never have to worry / never get range anxiety when the car says you will have 2-3% left upon arrival

the_amazing_raisin

unkel wrote: »

One of the best things about Tesla, the navigation is super accurate in terms of the percentage range left at destination. Never have to worry / never get range anxiety when the car says you will have 2-3% left upon arrival

Sure the Leaf is the same, you can drive it down to something like -10% before it dies

MJohnston

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Sure the Leaf is the same, you can drive it down to something like -10% before it dies

That's just as bad though, isn't it!

slave1

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Sure the Leaf is the same, you can drive it down to something like -10% before it dies

Think he meant faith in GOM and destination arrival accuracy, if we're leaving on a longer trip in the Leaf the Leaf may say I can get to my destination with say, 8% but reality is there is no way the Leaf will actually make that destination as the GOM is so inaccurate.
With the Tesla if it says I will get to a far away destination with say, 4% then I would have zero anxiety that a) I can actually get there and b) I will have damn close to 4% SOC when I do.
This is where Supercharging comes into its own

the_amazing_raisin

MJohnston wrote: »

That's just as bad though, isn't it!

Probably the safer option than letting you drive down to empty

The Leaf was pretty conservative with the buffers, I think newer cars have a smaller bottom buffer

MJohnston

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Probably the safer option than letting you drive down to empty

The Leaf was pretty conservative with the buffers, I think newer cars have a smaller bottom buffer

Yeah, but I think I want to have an accurate estimate, not one that under or over-estimates.

Because even if most times you end up having more range than was originally estimated, you'll always have the worry in your mind that this time it might be over-estimating.

Black_Knight

Grabbing a few 99s, limited parking, so I'm EVing the pumps.