Random EV thoughts.....

Black_Knight

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you prefer they not bother? Half a ciabatta is more than none

2050 will be 2060 will be 2070. So far in the future they can do absolutely nothing about it today and still hit that target.

cannco253

reminded me of this video, shows you what's possible, not that it could or would ever happen here.

The City with 16,000 Electric Buses & 22,000 Electric Taxis
https://youtu.be/0P7fTPLSMeI

the_amazing_raisin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you prefer they not bother? Half a ciabatta is more than none

I wouldn't call this bothering, I call this kicking the can down the road until all the current management are retired

unkel

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Dublin Bus going zero emission by 2050

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0603/1225756-dublin-bus/

Utterly pathetic :mad:

That's beyond retarded. Only in Ireland.

silver_sky

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

Dublin Bus going zero emission by 2050

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2021/0603/1225756-dublin-bus/

Utterly pathetic :mad:

There'll be a need to replace vehicles in the existing fleet before then at least once if not more times. They're not buying diesels any more... unless they're just planning to keep buying hybrids until forced not to. Crazy stuff.

NIMAN

Amazing the difference the weather has on range of an ev. Well, my ev anyway.

Nice warm weather, no wind, dry roads. Tonight I clocked my 2014 Leaf. I drove 18.4km and it used 12% of my battery.

In the winter, I'd say for 12% of my battery on wet roads in the wind, I would have been lucky to have got 12km.

Round Cable

unkel wrote: »

That's beyond retarded. Only in Ireland.

I'm pretty sure that the NTA buy the buses and allows their use by the individual transport companies. So Dublin Bus likely have zero influence on what fuel type that any of their buses actually use now or into the future.

unkel

silver_sky wrote: »

They're not buying diesels any more...

Yes they are still buying diesels. What else do you think they're buying. Diesels. They might have a tiny battery, but they're still puffing out cancerous emissions near people.

There's no justification to have anything with a diesel engine in it in urban areas by 2030

silver_sky

unkel wrote: »

Yes they are still buying diesels. What else do you think they're buying. Diesels. They might have a tiny battery, but they're still puffing out cancerous emissions near people.

There's no justification to have anything with a diesel engine in it in urban areas by 2030

I meant pure diesel but yes you're right, the hybrids are still diesel. My point was that they're going to try get away with the hybrids for as long as they can. Sure NTA already redid the branding to include a feckin leaf! greenwashing...

the_amazing_raisin

silver_sky wrote: »

I meant pure diesel but yes you're right, the hybrids are still diesel. My point was that they're going to try get away with the hybrids for as long as they can. Sure NTA already redid the branding to include a feckin leaf! greenwashing...

The worst part is that there are plenty of electric buses available now

In other sectors like long range haulage there literally isn't an electric option in the market yet, so they have no choice but to buy diesel

But electric city buses have been around for years, Dublin bus could order 300 of them tomorrow and they'd probably be delivered before the end of the year

Black_Knight

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

The worst part is that there are plenty of electric buses available now

In other sectors like long range haulage there literally isn't an electric option in the market yet, so they have no choice but to buy diesel

But electric city buses have been around for years, Dublin bus could order 300 of them tomorrow and they'd probably be delivered before the end of the year

Economically that'd be a bit of a waste, but as buses die out they should be replaced with electrics. What's the oldest DB bus in operation these days? 10 years old maybe? As I say, 2050 is such an easy target to hit they could literally do nothing about it for 10-15 years and still be fully electric by 2050 without breaking a sweat.

MJohnston

I think a little bit of what I said about charging infrastructure applies to something like buying electric buses — if you order 300 electric buses now, they will be out of date within 2 years.

zg3409

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

The worst part is that there are plenty of electric buses available now

In other sectors like long range haulage there literally isn't an electric option in the market yet, so they have no choice but to buy diesel

But electric city buses have been around for years, Dublin bus could order 300 of them tomorrow and they'd probably be delivered before the end of the year

There is typically a replacement plan from the NTA, but the other big factor is chargers at base, and that some routes may be above the range needed such as more rural parts of Dublin. In china I saw they moved some of their depot's to suit range or available power, that would cause union issues.

I am not saying it can't be done, particularly on one or two routes right now, but a massive rollout would be crazy expensive and might not make financial sense if you ignore pollution concerns. Heck hardly any government vehicles are EV, even though they are off the shelf in stock. Dublin bus has a few token full EV cars so at least they have some idea of real world issues.

Existing depot's may not have the power needed locally and they may not be in the right position for the range of some routes.

unkel

Nobody is saying DB should dump all existing buses today and replace them all with electric buses by the end of the year.

They are still buying bloody diesels though for any old bus they replace, they should ONLY buy pure EVs

innrain

Black_Knight wrote: »

As I say, 2050 is such an easy target to hit they could literally do nothing about it for 10-15 years and still be fully electric by 2050 without breaking a sweat.

And they don't care anyway as they will be long retired to see it happening. Hec I'd be retired if still alive, using a self driving Dacia Spring XXI to get me through the bore tunnel to Ibitza which would be the defacto retiree island. People will smoke diesel bricks to remember the old times. Guinness Storehouse will lose its title of no1 attraction to the Broadstone Dublin Bus depot the only place in the world where one can still inhale diesel fumes without paying.
[/end random]

cannco253

Black_Knight wrote: »

Would love to see some X to Y route challenge in Ireland. Dublin to Kerry and back or something. A Wild atlantic way challenge would be interesting too, it's so desolate of chargers.

Heard about this earlier

Irish student proves his dad wrong by travelling length of Wild Atlantic Way in a Tesla

https://www.irishmirror.ie/lifestyle/motoring/irish-student-proves-dad-wrong-24245000

the_amazing_raisin

MJohnston wrote: »

I think a little bit of what I said about charging infrastructure applies to something like buying electric buses — if you order 300 electric buses now, they will be out of date within 2 years.

I'd actually say it's the opposite, because you have such a good idea now of what your routes and capacity are going to be for the next 10 years you can plan your energy needs quite easily

Even if your buses end up outdated it doesn't matter as long as they do what is needed

And one advantage with electric buses is they can make money while they aren't moving. If shift end is around 4pm and there's a number of buses in the depot with energy left in the batteries then you can sell that to the grid at peak demand times when it's quite valuable

Similarly, you can get paid to do grid balancing when there's excess wind or solar. The amount of capacity available in electric buses makes this viable and the technology already exists

MJohnston

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

I'd actually say it's the opposite, because you have such a good idea now of what your routes and capacity are going to be for the next 10 years you can plan your energy needs quite easily

Even if your buses end up outdated it doesn't matter as long as they do what is needed

And one advantage with electric buses is they can make money while they aren't moving. If shift end is around 4pm and there's a number of buses in the depot with energy left in the batteries then you can sell that to the grid at peak demand times when it's quite valuable

Similarly, you can get paid to do grid balancing when there's excess wind or solar. The amount of capacity available in electric buses makes this viable and the technology already exists

It should be noted that NTA have a procurement order out already for 800 fully-electric double-decker buses over the next 5 years:
https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/180289/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

What do the NTA control in terms of bus fleet in Ireland? Bus Eireann have around 1200 buses, Dublin Bus around 1016, and Go Ahead Ireland about 140.

So 800 BEV buses in the next 5 years is around a third of the entire NTA fleet.

I would have to strongly disagree that it makes any sense to replace more of the fleet at any one time with BEV buses. Electric bus technology is even more rapidly improving compared to cars, and I think it's sensible enough to wait another 5 years before replacing anything more.

If you replace buses too early, you're not just wasting the money spent on them, but you're wasting the carbon used to produce them. Beyond that, does the NTA even have the budget to replace more than a third of their fleet at any one time? I very much doubt it.

The other thing I'll say is that buses aren't the real problem if we're talking about emissions. I think the most up-to-date statistic is that the average Dublin bus already generates 87% fewer emissions per person than the average car. Convert part of that fleet to BEV and another part to hybrid, and that figure is going to grow (or shrink depending on how you look at it).

unkel

MJohnston wrote: »

I think the most up-to-date statistic is that the average Dublin bus already generates 87% fewer emissions per person than the average car.

That's based on the Euro 6 emissions norms. We all know they look good on paper but the real life emissions are many times worse

That's the whole reason we are accelerating more quickly towards EVs, thanks to the diesel emissions cheating of VW and others

If this was the conspiracy theories forum, I might even have suggested it was Elon himself who wrote the cheat software and made sure it was caught :pac:

silver_sky

Black_Knight wrote: »

Economically that'd be a bit of a waste, but as buses die out they should be replaced with electrics. What's the oldest DB bus in operation these days? 10 years old maybe? As I say, 2050 is such an easy target to hit they could literally do nothing about it for 10-15 years and still be fully electric by 2050 without breaking a sweat.

Retrofit alongside replacement is the answer. If they're serious about sustainability then just buying new isn't the best or fastest way about it.

I don't see why they can't retrofit and refurbish buses. Paint and interior can be redone and is common in the private hire operators to extend the service life. Unless there's some serious structural issues...

the_amazing_raisin

silver_sky wrote: »

Retrofit alongside replacement is the answer. If they're serious about sustainability then just buying new isn't the best or fastest way about it.

I don't see why they can't retrofit and refurbish buses. Paint and interior can be redone and is common in the private hire operators to extend the service life. Unless there's some serious structural issues...

In general the changes are so extensive that it doesn't make sense economically. Remember the battery is the most expensive component, so it's not a massive saving

Better to replace the buses with electric as they reach end of life. Unfortunately DB are still buying diesel "hybrid" buses, which would probably release less pollution if they were literally set on fire

A simple commitment by DB and the NTA to not buy any more ICE vehicles where there is an electric or hydrogen alternative would go a long way

Black_Knight

cannco253 wrote: »

Heard about this earlier

Irish student proves his dad wrong by travelling length of Wild Atlantic Way in a Tesla

https://www.irishmirror.ie/lifestyle/motoring/irish-student-proves-dad-wrong-24245000

Full video posted earlier today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks6Bus6M4fw

Rich kids drive Tesla somewhat on the wild atlantic way, staying in luxury hotels.

Great footage mind you, but seems a bit like they skipped chunks of the wild atlantic way in favour of main roads and fancy hotels with tesla chargers. Fair play though.

McGiver

unkel wrote:

Yes they are still buying diesels. What else do you think they're buying. Diesels. They might have a tiny battery, but they're still puffing out cancerous emissions near people.

Unkel, I love you for this thing. Great that you always remind people what poison and disgusting technology the diesel is.

Cancerous toxic crap. Also, it costs the EU many bilions in "externalities" (dead and or sick people).

The sooner the diesel engine vehicles in cities are thrown to the dustbin of history the better. There should be no diesel engine used near human settlements and it should be legislated as the such at nearest opportunity. It belongs to the museums and antique collectors. I've no issue with collectors driving diesel cars for the craic on private property or away from the settlements.

McGiver

McGiver wrote: »

Unkel, I love you for this thing. Great that you always remind people what poison and disgusting technology the diesel is.

Cancerous toxic crap. Also, it costs the EU many bilions in "externalities" (dead and or sick people).

The sooner the diesel engine vehicles in cities are thrown to the dustbin of history the better. There should be no diesel engine used near human settlements and it should be legislated as the such at nearest opportunity. It belongs to the museums and antique collectors. I've no issue with collectors driving diesel cars for the craic on private property or away from the settlements.

I just picked up a new petrol car and looking at the engine bay I couldn't help but feel a huge sadness.

Obviously petrol isn't perfect but when you think how advanced, efficient, clean and low-maintenance petrol engines have become it's a bit sad that they're now going to be replaced.
But what really saddened me is that at this point in the evolution of combustion engines instead of refining petrol further and further we've spent the last almost 2-decades encouraging people out of 1-litre turbos that sit around silently and putting them into expensive, lumbering, rattling, filth-spewing diesel-engined cars.
I've probably mentioned before a few years ago I was visiting someone in Canada and sat on a street outside a pub it felt eerily quiet. I looked to the road and there was plenty of traffic, mostly pick-up trucks. Compared to 2-litre diesels everywhere here it was positively idyllic and no puffs of soot out of an old Volvo or Saab.


I had a bit of a thought last night (I know, need to be careful with that kind of stuff) and at this point I wonder if lowering the price of petrol would actually improve EV penetration. The car manufacturers seem to be taking huge profits on EVs and a big part of the price difference to consumers can be justified by not having to pay for petrol. I wouldn't be surprised if making petrol cheaper would help to lower the prices of EVs.

Black_Knight

Deleted User wrote: »

I just picked up a new petrol car and looking at the engine bay I couldn't help but feel a huge sadness.

Obviously petrol isn't perfect but when you think how advanced, efficient, clean and low-maintenance petrol engines have become it's a bit sad that they're now going to be replaced.
But what really saddened me is that at this point in the evolution of combustion engines instead of refining petrol further and further we've spent the last almost 2-decades encouraging people out of 1-litre turbos that sit around silently and putting them into expensive, lumbering, rattling, filth-spewing diesel-engined cars.
I've probably mentioned before a few years ago I was visiting someone in Canada and sat on a street outside a pub it felt eerily quiet. I looked to the road and there was plenty of traffic, mostly pick-up trucks. Compared to 2-litre diesels everywhere here it was positively idyllic and no puffs of soot out of an old Volvo or Saab.


I had a bit of a thought last night (I know, need to be careful with that kind of stuff) and at this point I wonder if lowering the price of petrol would actually improve EV penetration. The car manufacturers seem to be taking huge profits on EVs and a big part of the price difference to consumers can be justified by not having to pay for petrol. I wouldn't be surprised if making petrol cheaper would help to lower the prices of EVs.

I can never understand people who buy the mini one diesel.

unkel

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can never understand people who buy the mini one diesel.

Well most diesels really. But the ones that gets me most is you see a beautiful and elegant car like a Mercedes coupe or an Audi convertible and then they drive away and you hear that rough agricultural clatter :rolleyes:

Mod Note: Snip, keep it appropriate

Atlantic Dawn

Black_Knight wrote: »

I can never understand people who buy the mini one diesel.

Or diesel convertibles. They were swindled by the cheap motor tax offering and salesmen who sold them a pup, some didn't even know their car needed long drives or adblue.

Irishjg

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Or diesel convertibles. They were swindled by the cheap motor tax offering and salesmen who sold them a pup, some didn't even know their car needed long drives or adblue.

I honestly believe the issues with diesel have not been properly addressed in this country. Sure it’s changing but at a very slow pace. Most people I know have diesel engined cars because they were led/enticed down that path by government policy and the motor industry. Even though I’m asked a lot of questions about my EV, I’m not convinced any of my mates intend or will change. Reasons they give are a mix of financial outlay, mistrust in EVs, lack of infrastructure, procrastination for cars with better range and lots of other issues too. Sadly I can’t see diesel going anywhere for a long time.

Roger_007

Irishjg wrote: »

I honestly believe the issues with diesel have not been properly addressed in this country. Sure it’s changing but at a very slow pace. Most people I know have diesel engined cars because they were led/enticed down that path by government policy and the motor industry. Even though I’m asked a lot of questions about my EV, I’m not convinced any of my mates intend or will change. Reasons they give are a mix of financial outlay, mistrust in EVs, lack of infrastructure, procrastination for cars with better range and lots of other issues too. Sadly I can’t see diesel going anywhere for a long time.

I think that the major issue with EVs that has not been addressed yet is the cost to the state, (you and me), of the changeover from ICE vehicles.
Current policy is to replace about 1 million ICE vehicles with EVs by 2030.
At present each new EV costs the state about €10k in grants and waived VRT. So, to replace 1 million vehicles will have an up-front cost of €10 billion. Added to that is the revenue which will be lost on an ongoing basis from loss of excise duties on fuel sales.
Im sure that the gurus in the Dept of Finance must be hatching some new ways to raise revenue from the motoring sector but I’ve yet to hear anything about it.

electricus

Roger_007 wrote: »

I think that the major issue with EVs that has not been addressed yet is the cost to the state, (you and me), of the changeover from ICE vehicles.
Current policy is to replace about 1 million ICE vehicles with EVs by 2030.
At present each new EV costs the state about €10k in grants and waived VRT. So, to replace 1 million vehicles will have an up-front cost of €10 billion. Added to that is the revenue which will be lost on an ongoing basis from loss of excise duties on fuel sales.
Im sure that the gurus in the Dept of Finance must be hatching some new ways to raise revenue from the motoring sector but I’ve yet to hear anything about it.

The electricifation of transport, and a move to renewable energy sources has the potential to save money in the long term and reduce our dependance on imports (keeping money in the economy).


Currently dependent on oil and gas imports for our transport energy, at a cost of about €5bn pa. We also face EU fines for failing to meet emissions targets.