Random EV thoughts.....

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

I actually hope this happens, and that Tesla charge around 80c/kWh for non signed up manufacturers, mainly just to shut up the Tesla owners who intentionally misrepresent the Ionity business model.

Plus I'd also be happy paying 80c/kWh when I was stuck and needed a charge

Likewise, I'd happily pay 80c/kWh if it means I got a high quality charging network for the odd time I need it

slave1

cannco253 wrote: »

https://electrek.co/2021/06/16/tesla-talks-open-supercharger-network-other-automakers-germany/

Pie in the sky ? I’m sure Tesla owners wouldn’t be too happy about it if it happened.

This has come up before, doubt it will ever happen, Superchargers are quite dumb, no more than multiple home charger boards inside the gravestones. The software protocols that non-Tesla cars would have to be capable of for usage and most importantly payment is immense.
Yes, Elon has said Tesla are open to other cars using the network in the past but the full quote is that they would have to adhere to the existing front and back end Tesla protocols without any compromise from Tesla.

unkel

So what about last year when Musk visited Diess? As a publicity stunt, Tesla allowed all cars to charge at the V3 superchargers for a few days. This "software bug" (my hole) got great publicity. Free publicity, as usual.

I don't believe for a minute it's difficult to let other cars charge technically. Perhaps the billing for it is tricky.

AndyBoBandy

As Slave says, the Superchargers are fairly dumb (when say compared to the ESB DC chargers, which are connected to home base...).

All the logic, communication, metering etc is handled by the car as opposed to the charger itself.... so for non Tesla's to use them (but unlike the V3 free for a few days publicity stunt when they simply free vended), it would take a fair bit of new software/logic to allow the cars connect with Tesla servers and tell Tesla, which charger they are using, for how long, and how much energy did they receive for billing purposes etc...

What EV's out there other than Tesla's and VW ID.'s can get OTA software updates?

I'm sure Tesla will happily allow other manufacturers to use the SuC network, but at what cost? (most likely the keys to the castle, and what OM is going to give the 'new' kid on the block access to their software..?).

ELM327

I've said this multiple times.
It's easy to implement free for all non teslas at the V3 units. The hard part is billing.

I would guess that an app would be needed to communicate with base (which a Tesla already does via the car not the SuC) to allow charging.


I would hope beyond hope that elon - as a fellow aspie like myself - will do what we folks do best and let logic prevail, and not open up the golden goose!

AndyBoBandy

1 thing that would go down like a lead balloon with Tesla owners would be arriving to a SuC site and seeing 3 Tesla's and 5 ID.s all plugged in, and having to wait......

maybe only designating 2 SuC's per site (or 25% of SuC's per site) for 'all EV's would work better, but still, I'd be a pretty pi$$ed off Tesla driver arriving at any SuC that was fully loaded, and even 1 car wasn't a Tesla...

ELM327

Yes, that's a big no no and I hope they never do it. The whole thing behind buying a tesla is seamless ease of use even on long trips.
If I have to queue behind bloody skodas and VW to get to the SuC then whats the point?

AndyBoBandy

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, that's a big no no and I hope they never do it. The whole thing behind buying a tesla is seamless ease of use even on long trips.

My OH had an overnight business trip to Cork on Tuesday night, and wanted to take the ICE to save all the hassle... She was fine using the SuC's, but would need a charge down there. The hotel she stayed at do have 3 Tesla Destination chargers, but even then, if they were not working, or occupied, she'd need an eCars charge somewhere to get back up to Ballacolla...

I convinced her to take the Tesla, which she did, and it was grand.. (all 3 chargers in the hotel were available, however they wouldn't start a charge!! (so it was panic stations). I called her and asked her to press the reset button on the side of the unit and then it started working.... (only 4kW @ 6 amps, but glorious volts nonetheless), so the entire trip of 600km, done with nothing more than 3 plug and charge charging sessions.....

Had we have had any other EV, there's not a chance in hell she'd have taken it, and would have ICE'd it all the way...

TitianGerm

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes, that's a big no no and I hope they never do it. The whole thing behind buying a tesla is seamless ease of use even on long trips.
If I have to queue behind bloody skodas and VW to get to the SuC then whats the point?

If they opened up the charging to other manufacturers they'd open up a huge potential revenue stream which could easily surpass profits made on Tesla cars themselves (Tesla users get free charging don't they?).

Tesla are the same as every company, they want to increase profits and drive share value. Adding an extra revenue stream would be massive to those goals and a few pee'd off Tesla owners might not be enough to deter them actually doing it.

AndyBoBandy

TitianGerm wrote: »

(Tesla users get free charging don't they?)

No.

Some older Tesla Model S's (like Unkel's) have free Supercharging for life, but all new Tesla's have to pay for it at around €0.30/kWh.

The older ones will eventually attrition off...

New Model 3 Owners can get 1,500 free km's if they use a referral code to buy, and likewise, if someone uses their referral code, they can get an additional 1,500 km of free Supercharging.

I used a referral and had mine used 3 times, giving me a total of 6,000 free km's. In 15 months, we've only used 1,137 km's, so I've til October 2022 to use up the remaining 4,853...

The balance reduces very slowly... for example on Tuesday my OH put 26kWh (54%) into the car, and it only took 84km off the balance (whereas 26kWh will actually get us 162km of motorway driving at 120km/h). On Wednesday she put in 25kWh (50%) and it only took 100km's off the balance... so they last for ages....

TitianGerm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

No.

Some older Tesla Model S's (like Unkel's) have free Supercharging for life, but all new Tesla's have to pay for it at around @0.30/kWh.

The older ones will eventually attrition off...

You get free charging from referrals though don't you? Would one referral get you enough for more than one year or does that expire?

markpb

Considering the absolutely enormous queues at SuCs in California on busy weekends, I can't see them opening US SuCs to other manufacturers any time soon. EU is simpler because of CCS but I can't see them allowing access to other manufacturers in one region but not another, it just complicates things for everyone.

I do think this will happen, I just don’t see it happening very soon.

cannco253

eh what about the BMW i's, Mercedes EQs and Audit e-Trons? Why all the negativity around ID only? Would Tesla drivers be ok seeing premium German cars at the supercharger points, maybe even a Taycan?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2020/10/31/should-tesla-open-up-its-supercharger-network-to-other-brands/?sh=591a8bf21400

If Tesla can make more money opening the supercharger network to non Tesla cars then just keeping it private to Tesla cars, there must be a tipping point when it makes sense. Business is business and the Technoking is in the business of making money. I doubt that the issue is down to technology, but business agreements.

Look at what's happening in the UK with the amount of new charging hubs/forecourts being open at a rapid pace. The supercharger network is being gradually overtaken by competitors and is becoming less of a USP for Tesla, while here the expansion is at a snail's pace.

AndyBoBandy

TitianGerm wrote: »

You get free charging from referrals though don't you? Would one referral get you enough for more than one year or does that expire?

they last 6 months, but every additional referral puts an extra 6 months on your end date (up to a point though).

mine expire in October 2022, and the last referral was delivered in September 2020

innrain

The biggest excuse I heard in the last 30 months on why ecars do not progress with the charging network and why other private entities are not installing chargers is that is not profitable. So now we're told that is actually money to be made from this? I see this as a diversion.

Not that I would be displeased to have a hub in Sandyford and maybe ecars would learn from them. 200 yards apart you'd have one charger limited @50kW total vs 1MW total.

KCross

innrain wrote: »

The biggest excuse I heard in the last 30 months on why ecars do not progress with the charging network and why other private entities are not installing chargers is that is not profitable. So now we're told that is actually money to be made from this? I see this as a diversion.

Its all about scale. The Tesla supercharger network discussion is on a global level.

Ireland isnt even a dot in terms of that scale.

You cant compare the two things at all.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

So what about last year when Musk visited Diess? As a publicity stunt, Tesla allowed all cars to charge at the V3 superchargers for a few days. This "software bug" (my hole) got great publicity. Free publicity, as usual.

I don't believe for a minute it's difficult to let other cars charge technically. Perhaps the billing for it is tricky.

Moves post to conspiracy theory forum

unkel

Tesla has invested an insane amount of money in the global Supercharger network. And very few Tesla owners pay very little for its use. Many / most Model S and Model X owners have free supercharging. Many / most Model 3 / Y users mainly use up the free mileage that comes with the car and referrals.

This money has obviously been paid by people buying new Teslas. And there is still a premium on second hand Teslas because of this. Tesla owners would not be pleased if the plebs were allowed to charge at the superior chargers they have paid for unless there is some sort of kickback to them from these third party users

Unless of course by government intervention. Some people who have never worked a day in their lives, live in my estate in the same house type as myself. Not too happy about it, myself and mrs unkel both work full time to pay for our house and for their free houses, but the government has ruled this to be fair :rolleyes:

unkel

liamog wrote: »

Moves post to conspiracy theory forum

Nothing to do with conspiracy theories. The Supercharger (V3) network can be switched to freevend easily as other posters have confirmed after my post.

liamog

unkel wrote: »

Nothing to do with conspiracy theories. The Supercharger (V3) network can be switched to freevend easily as other posters have confirmed after my post.

The conspiracy is that it was done deliberately rather than a simple software bug.

never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity

slave1

From an Irish perspective all SuC here are not CCS and the same with all Euro V2s which there are a lot of.
Only V3 onwards are CCS.

liamog

slave1 wrote: »

From an Irish perspective all SuC here are not CCS and the same with all Euro V2s which there are a lot of.
Only V3 onwards are CCS.

The Irish Superchargers were provided with a CCS connector. V2s are compatible with CCS.

liamog

It will happen eventually, probably triggered by another manufacturer attempting to build a private access network.
Long term it's not in anyone's interest for their to be a collection of distinct manufacturer chargers at a service area.
I find the concept of technically compatible infrastructure with a software lock to prevent access to be abhorrable.
The rumours that Porsche were looking to roll out a private access network should trigger a ban on further development of them.

Now you come to the question of how to pay for overall network access. I could easily envision a circumstance where Tesla join/partner with the Ionity group.
Tesla owners would then get supercharger rates at Ionity chargers, and Ionity members would get Ionity rates when using superchargers whilst subscribed.

There would then need to be some arrangement for manufacturers who are avoiding infrastructure investments, how much do you charge owners of cars from the Stellantis group (Peugeot/Opel etc)

slave1

innrain wrote: »

The biggest excuse I heard in the last 30 months on why ecars do not progress with the charging network and why other private entities are not installing chargers is that is not profitable. So now we're told that is actually money to be made from this? I see this as a diversion.

Not that I would be displeased to have a hub in Sandyford and maybe ecars would learn from them. 200 yards apart you'd have one charger limited @50kW total vs 1MW total.

KCross wrote: »

Its all about scale. The Tesla supercharger network discussion is on a global level.

Ireland isnt even a dot in terms of that scale.

You cant compare the two things at all.

Charger cost would also be taken into consideration.
eCars are paying how much for a 150kW unit or Ionity for their more powerful ones.
SuC are bundled home charger boards so no great expense there, these stalls/gravestones are mostly air on the inside.
It's the cabinets that house and produce the power

slave1

liamog wrote: »

The Irish Superchargers were provided with a CCS connector. V2s are compatible with CCS.

Were they, so long since I've used one I'd forgotten, ones I used in Scotland were Tesla only connectors so that's probably what I was thinking.

In the US there's a Tesla only connection, it's very similar to Type 2 but there's an extra notch from memory that would be an issue perhaps, or maybe not, they could be the early ones, I've never used a US charger

slave1

Still cannot see this happen, the amount of negativity from existing Tesla owners would be off the planet, it's a significant USP.
I often look at the UK occupancy when charging and over there there is plenty of "short waits" or "long waits" already popping up on the screen and Tesla have introduced dynamic higher day time pricing to alleviate, imagine making this worse, huge self inflicted wound.

Re free SuC for life, the last session was late 2019 when new X's and S's had free SuC for a short time, to boost sales I assume.

After free SuC was withdrawn across the board it was available for a time as an add on, $1,500/€1,400

liamog

It won't be self inflicted, these kind of things tend to follow a predictable path in EU markets. Companies are given a strong suggestion to co-operate or face regulation forcing them to do so. If you co-operate by choice you end up with more control over the results.

zg3409

the_amazing_raisin wrote: »

It'd be interesting to see what habits need to change to reduce that evening peak

Ideally you want to move things that can easily be moved and automated. Things like a timer on your immersion or a sensor to turn it off at high cost times. Similarly to turn off heat pumps during peak hours.

Most washing machines and dishwashers have a delay start feature, future ones might detect high rate times and automatically delay.

Hot water is simplest, particularly if it is a large tank and you don't tend to have lots of baths at peak time.

the_amazing_raisin

slave1 wrote: »

Still cannot see this happen, the amount of negativity from existing Tesla owners would be off the planet, it's a significant USP.
I often look at the UK occupancy when charging and over there there is plenty of "short waits" or "long waits" already popping up on the screen and Tesla have introduced dynamic higher day time pricing to alleviate, imagine making this worse, huge self inflicted wound.

Re free SuC for life, the last session was late 2019 when new X's and S's had free SuC for a short time, to boost sales I assume.

After free SuC was withdrawn across the board it was available for a time as an add on, $1,500/€1,400

I remember this was discussed a bit by Bjorn Nyland and there seemed to be basically 2 options

1 - Tesla would open up some sort of payment portal that allows other cars to pay for SuC usage. This would require other car makers to build the software necessary to interface with Tesla's backend. SuC users would then pay whatever rate Tesla agrees to sell SuC usage for

2 - Car companies (let's say VW) pay Tesla a fixed cost per car to support the network, in the same way that Tesla holds back a certain amount per car sale to build the network. Tesla would then give VW the keys to allow all of their cars to use the SuC network

It seems scenario 1 is more likely given that I can't see other car makers paying a fixed amount that's likely to be in millions for access to a network they have no control over

Scenario 1 would require some work on Tesla's part but to be frank it would probably be more reliable than the garbage collection of RFID cards and apps that EV owners have to put up with. The majority of work would be with the car makers who would have to implement a system to mimic Tesla's plug & charger protocol

As I've said, as a non Tesla owner I'd pay Ionity prices or higher for access to the network. For the rare occassion I would be using it it's a fair price to pay and if it helps support the SuC network then it's worthwhile

the_amazing_raisin

zg3409 wrote: »

Ideally you want to move things that can easily be moved and automated. Things like a timer on your immersion or a sensor to turn it off at high cost times. Similarly to turn off heat pumps during peak hours.

Most washing machines and dishwashers have a delay start feature, future ones might detect high rate times and automatically delay.

Hot water is simplest, particularly if it is a large tank and you don't tend to have lots of baths at peak time.

I've always had this theory that there are energy usage tasks that can happen anytime and tasks which are harder to move around

Washing machines, dishwashing, EV charging, water heating and to an extent space heating can be moved around a fair bit. You don't car when they happen, just that they're done by a certain time

As you rightly mentioned, this stuff can be easily automated with delay timers, or even energy manager which will tagrte the cheapest times of the day

Some things are trickier like cooking dinner, you can't eat all your meals at 5am when electricity is cheap. Moving the main meal to lunchtime is better from both an energy usage and health standpoint and a lot of workplaces are starting to provide canteens which are generally more efficient than a bunch of people cooking dinners themselves

As I said, I think one of the main reasons people have the big meal at dinnertime is because of schoolkids. So a hot meals programme for schools would have tangible environmental benefits as well as health benefits

As unkel said, the stick is the one of the best methods to force change, but it helps a lot when you can offer a viable alternative