Random EV thoughts.....

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964166#Comment_119964166

It’s the French government looking at the overwhelming evidence showing the impact of climate change and the massively polluting industry that is air travel and forcing people to take a cleaner option. People’s preference of flying vs train has to take a back seat when it comes to something important like this.

AMKC

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965074#Comment_119965074

Yes you are right. Planes are getting cleaner do. They will soon be using synthetic fuels I think whether that is better or not I do not know.

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965120#Comment_119965120

Synthetic fuels are hokum, pandered by the likes of O'Leary and Shell to hoodwink the public.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesmorris/2021/03/27/synthetic-fuels-wont-save-the-planet-so-dont-say-they-could/

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964166#Comment_119964166

Could easily be done here too, there's a train from Killarney, Limerick or Cork to Dublin. Donegal is a 1hr flight, presume you've to check in 2hrs before, makes it 45 mins quicker than driving, not including getting to/from the airports at either end. Doesn't seem like a huge time saving for the environmental cost

Markcheese

Even if synthetic fuels were the be all and end all , they wouldn't be cheap ,

And the airline industry is very sensitive to fuel price increases as it is ..

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965120#Comment_119965120

When the EU rules on aviation fuel tax come into effect, we’ll soon find out how serious the aviation industry is about clean alternative fuels.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965431#Comment_119965431

At least the business/VIP class will still be able to swan around in their executive jets without a care in the world, while the ordinary Joe takes the hit for the environment. Proper order, let the peasants eat sustainable cake instead

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965628#Comment_119965628

Pretty sure it's business class will be hit hardest given they have a much higher emmisions per passenger mile than economy

They'll still be able to afford it sure, but there'll be a big tax bill for the privilege

Besides the main focus is on cutting down short haul flights which are more polluting and alternatives are possible. There's basically no business class on most of those flights anyway

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966175#Comment_119966175

My point is that I thought corporate jets, emissions from which amount to nearly 20% of total, will be exempted from regulations. All for the greater good I suppose

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/corporate-jets-to-escape-eu-s-green-aviation-fuel-tax-1.4618545

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119966940#Comment_119966940

Well the good news is that article I linked earlier says the French government will be hitting corporate jets with some extra taxes to even things out.

And since France apparently has a large percentage of corporate jets based there I imagine it'll sting a bit

I agree there needs to be EU wide legislation on that issue, otherwise private jets will just get based elsewhere

zg3409

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119965334#Comment_119965334

No we subsidised the regional flights, as in they run at a loss subsidised by the taxpayer. They claim they are needed so business in rural far flung areas can be liked to Dublin and international flights mainly for those who need to fly in and out of country for company visits. But Mary down the road also gets cheapo flights to Dublin too. Remember aircraft fuel is tax free unlike petrol or diesel for roads, so airline fuel is relatively cheap versus petrol costs.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967693#Comment_119967693

And I hope we all remember that the next time a politician comes knocking and we ask them why a plane to Kerry is worth subsidising but a high speed rail line to Cork and Kerry isn't 😁

unkel

Intercity (non-cummuting) trains are not worth subsidising either. Far too little demand for it. Last time I was in a train from Dublin to Cork, I reckon I was the only passenger paying full fare. Full of OAP and students who travel for free or for half nothing, courtesy of the tax payer.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967939#Comment_119967939

Agree, that whole travel pass thing needs reform/overhaul/canning

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967939#Comment_119967939

I'd argue that if the service is crap it'll never get used to the point where it's profitable, whereas if you put in a decent high speed service then people will use it because it presents a viable alternative to car travel

Think about it like this, you've someone employed in Dublin who wants to buy a house. Closest place with anywhere near achievable house prices these days is probably around Carlow

So now our poor worker has to suffer the constant traffic jam that is the M7. But a high speed train would probably get him to Heuston in about 45 mins

As long as it's cheaper than petrol and our worker has a decent chance at a seat then he'll probably take the train

To put it another way, you'd effectively extend the commuter belt deep into rural areas by introducing a decent high speed rail service

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968259#Comment_119968259

The subsidisation of EVs together with access to low cost charging in their own driveway new houses will not encourage many commuters to swap their shiny new preheated EVs for such services.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968336#Comment_119968336

Not sure about that, I've an EV with access to low cost charging and I live in County Dublin, but I won't drive into the city when I'm going to work. The bus is about 30-45 mins faster than driving

For someone out in the countryside the car journey is much greater. If anything you might see those EVs being used to drop someone off at the train station instead of being driven all the way to Dublin

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968336#Comment_119968336

Are EVs being subsidised? I thought that they were simply not being taxed as heavily as ICE cars.

Also, EV owners pay the same for their electricity as everyone else.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119967939#Comment_119967939

Have you been on it recently? The trains are absolutely jammed these days. …

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968390#Comment_119968390

No, my experience was a few years ago, certainly well before COVID. So jammed these days, with people paying the full whack? Or people travelling for free or otherwise heavily subsidised? If the former, that would be good news, time to drop all existing subsidies, maybe even expand on the services if they are profit making.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968369#Comment_119968369

Less tax is the same as a subsidy. It’s an incentive to do something that costs the government money. In the case of EVs it costs the SEAI grants, the VRT forgone and the motor tax forgone.

fits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968458#Comment_119968458

Jammed with commuters. But even when I’ve taken it on weekends it’s always busy. With all kinds.

( I bought my ev for Dublin commute and promptly changed to a job that I can commute to by train )

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968458#Comment_119968458

The subsidies are there for a reason, it's a political choice for the government to give free travel to pensioners and cheap travel to students and minors

Irish Rail still get paid for the tickets, it's just the government footing the bill so it doesn't mean the rail service doesn't make a profit

Personally I'm fine with passenger fare subsidies, public transport needs to be cheap to make it accessible for everyone. At the risk of angering some pensioners, I do think they should get reduced fares instead of free travel but that's my only complaint

Typically rail services don't make much money on passenger services, freight is where the money is. Irish Rail pretty much lost all their freight contracts years ago which effectively hollowed out most of their income and turned it into a permanent loss maker

MightyMunster

Is public transport not a public service, do we really expect it to make a profit?

On the train from Limerick to Dublin, used to link with the Cork train when I used it around 20yrs ago. Was always full, regularly had to stand or sit on the ground the whole way.

Bus was nearly always a better option as guaranteed a seat and was a quarter of the price.

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968336#Comment_119968336

Low cost charging? A thing of the past unfortunately, night rate on day/ night meters are what my 24 hour rate was a few months ago. Nobody in their right mind would get one of those stupid 2 hour EV smart meter plans and pay through the nose every other hour of the day. I'll be looking in 2024 to change the phev, it will be interesting to see how the figures stack up then.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968842#Comment_119968842

I think it's fine not to make a profit but operating at a huge loss wouldn't be viable either. A service which is entirely dependent on government funding is vulnerable to the whims of whatever political party is in power at the time

Having said that, not all routes will be cost effective to run and will need extensive support. I remember one of the Limerick routes was about to be closed down a few years ago until Irish Rail basically got forced to run the service

One thing I always thought might be a winner was high speed shuttle trains for cars and trucks.

Freight rail only works in a situation where you have a lot of bulky material being moved in high volumes between two fixed points, like a car factory to a port, or an iron mine to a smelting plant. Otherwise it's cheaper to just pave a road and use trucks

But if you had a situation like the channel tunnel where you could load trucks onto a train and go from something like Dublin to Cork. It would suit truck drivers since it effectively halves their travel time for a long distance load, and since they're resting while the train is moving it doesn't eat into their driving time.

So you could potentially get another load of cargo in a day than otherwise, meaning more income

And if the service could be made cheaper than the diesel costs of running the same journey in a truck then it's a cost saving too

I'm sure someone has crunched the numbers and said it doesn't work, but if combined with a passenger rail service it would add an extra revenue stream

unkel

@MightyMunster - "Bus was nearly always a better option as guaranteed a seat and was a quarter of the price."

You answered your own question there. The private sector can do it cheaper and better and without the tax payer having to foot most of the bill. If it was up to me, I would withdraw every cent of subsidy from all the unprofitable train routes overnight.

But hey, I think this is the wrong forum for all of this 😁

markpb

The 1960s called. They’re quite keen to get their opinions back. Dr. Beeching is lost without them!

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119969855#Comment_119969855

Regrettably the 1960s were a workers paradise compared to the crap people put up with today

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968676#Comment_119968676

They don't get paid per ticket though, they get an annual travelpass subvention.. meaning if 1 or 1000000 journeys take place they get the same subvention