Random EV thoughts.....

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119968369#Comment_119968369

Buy any new EV up to €59,999 and the Govt gifts you €5k. Lower tax is a taxpayer subsidy. Not saying its wrong to do so but it is a subsidy.

An earlier comment mentioned that so long as public transport is cheaper than petrol then people would be incentivised away from cars. However, home charging can be up to 5 times cheaper than petrol so less likely that EV drivers look at the financial incentives of public transport use

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971263#Comment_119971263

The SEAI grant is a direct subsidy, tax brackets aren't a subsidy they are a taxation measure. You wouldn't say we are subsidising coffee to go because we charge the 9% VAT rate instead of the standard 23%.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971263#Comment_119971263

Well the incentive doesn't just need to be financial. As I said, driving into Dublin is so mind numbingly awful that I take the bus despite it actually being more expensive than the electricity cost

the_amazing_raisin

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=81cZ8CSRcH4&feature=youtu.be

Interesting happenings going on in the UK, drops in used EV prices

My guess is that they're coming off their totally unaffordable peaks. And with the UK staring down a recession people are perhaps not willing to roll the dice on an expensive EV that might lose a lot of value in a few years time

So the big question I guess is whether it will be reflected here as well. I'm not so sure yet, supply is still low enough that I think prices will stay high in 2023. However with a bunch of cars coming off PCP in the next couple of years, there will no doubt be some downward pressure on prices around then

EDIT: FWIW I did a spot check for my car (VW ID.4 1st Max) and it looks like the asking price is either what I paid in 2021, or up to €5k more than that. So I guess any price drops are yet to happen here

wassie

Irish used car market was impacted not only by the global shortage of new cars, but in turn Brexit which basically overnight stopped the private car import market thanks to VAT & customs being payable and in turn raised import prices with dealers.

If there is a significant price decline, then there may be value to be had importing again, particularly on higher spec models. Sterling has rebounded in last few months against the Euro trading, but still trading lower than the last couple of years also.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971839#Comment_119971839

Oh I agree and many will think the same way. However, the majority of people commuting by car are in single occupancy cars. This is despite the high cost of running ICEs. Will be even more difficult to shift people out of their serenely comfortable, tech laden and very economical to run EVs.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119971512#Comment_119971512

Who funds the grant?

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972906#Comment_119972906

Sorry hit post button in error. Meant to add the same people as those who fund the opportunity cost of the tax foregone by exempting EVs from VRT. I would take the same view on the policy decision to charge lower VAT on the hotel sector etc. Again not saying it is wrong to do so, just that it is subsidy to the sector funded as always by the taxpayer.

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972265#Comment_119972265

This does not just apply exclusively to EVs though. Irish used car prices have increased across the board, blame Brexit and supply constraints predominantly. Even with extortionate VRT rates on imports it was still very worthwhile importing used cars fron UK prior to Brexit. I brought in a 2017 smax titanium sport in Nov 2020 for €23.5k all in. I just checked online there and seeing asking prices of €27 to €28k. Madness but a product of our currently dysfunctional car market. Can't last forever though so hopefully we'll see a gradual transition to more affordable used EV prices over the next couple of years.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119972974#Comment_119972974

Words have meaning, a subsidy is a payment to keep the costs of a product or service low. It is not called a subsidy when you choose to apply differential levels of taxation against a product or service. The government does not subsidise hot coffee purchases.

Alkers

Crazy cold this morning, after the car running through two ten minute pre-heat cycles (10 mins each), the door handles were still frozen solid and then the charge cable was frozen into the port. Had to defrost both with water to free them up.

slave1

The UK with their hugely popular 3 year PCP deals occasionally flood the used market upsetting prices, we are different here and also on the cusp of possible grant change so this will support high used prices for EVs for the next 6months or so IMHO

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119973709#Comment_119973709

Got to use the new door opening from the app button today which means it doesn't matter if the handle is frozen 😁

AndyBoBandy

I just followed the Tesla procedure and gave each door handle a thwack with the butt of my fist and it worked a charm…..

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975186#Comment_119975186

How does that work? Do the door handles have electronic actuators to push them open from the inside?

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119975953#Comment_119975953

It's the same as pressing the button on the inside of the door, electronic switch drops the window and unlocks door you just have to push it then. From outside it popped open a few cms. Only came out a few weeks ago

https://youtu.be/DIsC3vTxEJg

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119973536#Comment_119973536

Sure words have a meaning but applying a lower rate of tax on a specific product / service so as to differentiate it from similar products / services in order to stimulate demand effectively means the taxpayer is subsidising this product / service

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119978346#Comment_119978346

Subsidy refers the transfer of money to the provider of the good/service to make to make it available at a lower price. Taxation measures are the opposite, you impose a tax to increase the cost of an item.

It's wrong to claim that you are effectively subsiding a product by charging a lower rate of tax, as to do so makes the word subsidy completely meaningless for any item in a market other than the one that has the highest rates of tax and duties. You would not say we effectively subsidise the purchase of sausages because they have lower tax than a packet of cigarettes.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979971#Comment_119979971

creedp specificity said it’s a subsidy if the tax rate differs between two similar products. An ICE and an EV are similar and one attracts lower tax rates. Sausages and cigarettes are not similar products so no one is comparing their tax treatment.

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119980265#Comment_119980265

You also wouldn't say we subsidise cars based on the motor tax emissions band. Are we saying that every vehicle that doesn't pay the highest motor tax band of €1809 is subsidised by the government?

obi604

Went to plug in my car there at the house and the cable is fairly rigid/frozen. Not totally frozen and a small bit of give in it.

Is it dangerous to charge the car when the cable is like this?

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984734#Comment_119984734

I think it should be fine, as the cable carries current it'll warm up and loosen out

Might be worth checking the specs on the charger and cable to be safe

CoBo55

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119984734#Comment_119984734

I wouldn't think it can do you or the car any harm I'm sure all these possibilities are catered for when designing the cables and sockets.

innrain

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985881#Comment_119985881

Not really all but a good bit considering they test these cars at the Arctic circle.

Not so sure they cater for pouring boiling water onto the plastic bits as it is customary here but let's hope they did

mfceiling

Just came down to my local taxi rank...sorry charger to top up.

I'm moving to a house next year with no off street parking so regrettably the car will have to go. Finding a free charger in Dublin now is like getting 6 numbers on the lotto.

MightyMunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986324#Comment_119986324

What's the craic with this, are these taxis running 24/7 with multiple drivers? Have been in a few EV taxis and they all said they don't need to charge during their work day.

the_amazing_raisin

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986324#Comment_119986324

No chance of getting a charger installed? Is it street parking or a private car park?

If it's the latter I've heard that you can have some success, unfortunately the councils apparently say no to everything

creedp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119980494#Comment_119980494

A bit of 'pedantism' going on here I think. Reality is that the Govt has always considered private cars to be luxury items and a cash cow and taxed them heavily. This was long before we cottoned on to justifying this policy on environmental grounds.

In my uncomplicated mind if the Govt decides to incentivise the sale of EVs by either giving a grant to people who purchase them or exempting them from tax, the outcome is the same. Tax revenues will either be used to subsidise the price of the car or tax revenues will be reduced in order to achieve the same result. In any case it will only be a temporary measure as the Govt will want to quickly replace the revenue forgone from this traditional cash cow and will come up with another means to heavily tax privately owned EVs. Enjoy it whole it lasts

slave1

"In any case it will only be a temporary measure as the Govt will want to quickly replace the revenue forgone from this traditional cash cow and will come up with another means to heavily tax privately owned EVs."

i.e. Smart Metering

liamog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119987128#Comment_119987128

Our old systems was very much a system of taxation as a luxury good with engine size standing in for value. The emissions systems tried to set the tax based on impact of usage. I expect the next system will seek to replace the annual taxation and consumption tax with a system of road usage. Designing a system will be complex and we'll likely wait until after another European country (probably the UK) do so.

I would expect for road usage to be introduced to all vehicles and result in extra taxes on ICE vehicles as a further disincentive.