Random EV thoughts.....

Mickeroo

Kramer wrote: »

"Go faster stripes" or does it actually, err, go faster?
It isn't dropped or anything radical changed, that I can see .

Dunno about performance but there's a full body kit on it too, side skirts, spoilers and all that. Presume it's just an excuse to stick a few grand on the price.

shovel

As a former Toyota driver who went to Kia because I needed a diesel,I am wondering have any of you had any feedback on the Toyota hybrids.
I see the ad where they say the most popular car is a Toyota hybrid.
I would have been interested in a Corolla or Rav 4 at the time(Jan 2019) but couldn't get any information as the models did not come till march.
So any Toyota hybrid drivers out there and how are you getting on with model,fuel consumption,rural or urban driving??.
In other words are you happy with your purchase??

mp3guy

shovel wrote: »

As a former Toyota driver who went to Kia because I needed a diesel,I am wondering have any of you had any feedback on the Toyota hybrids.
I see the ad where they say the most popular car is a Toyota hybrid.
I don't know anyone that has one.
I would have been interested in a Corolla or Rav 4 at the time(Jan 2019) but couldn't get any information as the models did not come till march.
So any Toyota hybrid drivers out there and how are you getting on with model,fuel consumption,rural or urban driving??

Had a 191 Yaris Hybrid the past year, really liked it. Previous car was a 1.6 diesel Mondeo which I hated driving after the Yaris. Typical commute 25km each way, about 1/3rd city traffic, 1/3rd hilly countryside roads, 1/3rd 100kph+ motorway. Typical fuel usage 5.2l/100km average. Driving from Cork-Dublin I'd get 5.6l/100km. Short city only driving easy 4.5l/100km.

The hybrid CVT gear box takes some getting used to, but I love it. The response with the electric motor for pulling off is great, if you're waiting at lights and need to change lanes those manual BMWs and Audis beside you will be way slower off the mark unless they're revving up the engine and ready to do a proper launch.

Trading it in for a RAV4 hybrid soon.

unkel

mp3guy wrote: »

Had a 191 Yaris Hybrid the past year, really liked it. Previous car was a 1.6 diesel Mondeo which I hated driving after the Yaris. Typical commute 25km each way, about 1/3rd city traffic, 1/3rd hilly countryside roads, 1/3rd 100kph+ motorway. Typical fuel usage 5.2l/100km average. Driving from Cork-Dublin I'd get 5.6l/100km. Short city only driving easy 4.5l/100km.

The hybrid CVT gear box takes some getting used to, but I love it. The response with the electric motor for pulling off is great

You need to go drive an EV. Any EV! That response in an EV is far better again than in a hybrid

mp3guy wrote: »

if you're waiting at lights and need to change lanes those manual BMWs and Audis beside you will be way slower off the mark unless they're revving up the engine and ready to do a proper launch.

Indeed. A lot of the time I've nearly eached the other end of the cross roads by the time I hear their engine starting (because of their retarded start-stop system)

mp3guy

unkel wrote: »

You need to go drive an EV. Any EV! That response in an EV is far better again than in a hybrid

Yes I bought a Kona last month.

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. A lot of the time I've reached the other end of the cross roads and their engine has only just started (because of their retarded start-stop system)

It's a lot of fun

kanuseeme

I found hybrids give around the same economy as a diesel, If you want to save go electric, or plug-in hybrid, both depend on your commutes, ability to charge and budget.

peposhi

shovel wrote: »

As a former Toyota driver who went to Kia because I needed a diesel,I am wondering have any of you had any feedback on the Toyota hybrids.
I see the ad where they say the most popular car is a Toyota hybrid.
I would have been interested in a Corolla or Rav 4 at the time(Jan 2019) but couldn't get any information as the models did not come till march.
So any Toyota hybrid drivers out there and how are you getting on with model,fuel consumption,rural or urban driving??.
In other words are you happy with your purchase??

A colleague had an Auris “Self-Charging” hybrid - guess what he’s driving now - T-Cross diesel and he’s saving money although only marginal amount. With his driving routine and habits he’d been a perfect EV driver, but had no courage going the EV route, yet.

kanuseeme

peposhi wrote: »

A colleague had an Auris “Self-Charging” hybrid - guess what he’s driving now - T-Cross diesel and he’s saving money although only marginal amount. With his driving routine and habits he’d been a perfect EV driver, but had no courage going the EV route, yet.

It is a big ask in fairness, spend 30 k on something that you know will cost you so much every week and meets your needs or spend same or more on something thats only around for few years, might take longer to do a long commute, looking for charging points, worry about battery degradation and then if you over come those points who is going to buy it in a few years and they having the same line of thought.

peposhi

kanuseeme wrote: »

It is a big ask in fairness, spend 30 k on something that you know will cost you so much every week and meets your needs or spend same or more on something thats only around for few years, might take longer to do a long commute, looking for charging points, worry about battery degradation and then if you over come those points who is going to buy it in a few years and they having the same line of thought.

Well, after more than 150000 EV only KM over the last 5 years I can tell 9 of 10 people I know would be better off with an EV in 100% of their daily driving. The fear is in the eye of the beholder. After 5 years of EV discussions in work another colleague of mine got an L24 and he’s already agreed he should have done it years ago. And more people are now opening up to it...

JPA

peposhi wrote: »

Well, after more than 150000 EV only KM over the last 5 years I can tell 9 of 10 people I know would be better off with an EV in 100% of their daily driving. The fear is in the eye of the beholder. After 5 years of EV discussions in work another colleague of mine got an L24 and he’s already agreed he should have done it years ago. And more people are now opening up to it...

People massively overestimate how much they drive on a daily basis.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

JPA wrote: »

People massively overestimate how much they drive on a daily basis.

They also overestimate the size of Ireland and the number of road trips they do.

Mickeroo

Naomi Microscopic Rifle wrote: »

They also overestimate the size of Ireland and the number of road trips they do.

And seem to think when they reach a destination they instantly turn the car around and drive back.

mp3guy

Mickeroo wrote: »

And seem to think when they reach a destination they instantly turn the car around and drive back.

And apparently having a means of refueling your car at home isn't convenient enough to ever mention.

Kramer

JPA wrote: »

People massively overestimate how much they drive on a daily basis.

Naomi Microscopic Rifle wrote: »

They also overestimate the size of Ireland and the number of road trips they do.

Mickeroo wrote: »

And seem to think when they reach a destination they instantly turn the car around and drive back.

Yes to all of the above but also remember costs - almost €52,000 (before the taxpayer to manufacturer subsidy of €10k) for the tiny Kona with inexorably rising prices.
That's just plain crazy :rolleyes:.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Kramer wrote: »

Yes to all of the above but also remember costs - almost €52,000 (before the taxpayer to manufacturer subsidy of €10k) for the tiny Kona with inexorably rising prices.
That's just plain crazy :rolleyes:.

EV's are expensive new, but I think removing the subsidy (the government just doesnt tax them as much) is not giving a realistic picture. Also there is a second hand market out there, and unfounded fears of buying second hand mean there are bargains to be had.

A new model 3 SR+ is about 49k which in BMW 3 series terms is a bargain. Same price as a dog slow 318d without any options.

peposhi

Kramer wrote: »

Yes to all of the above but also remember costs - almost €52,000 (before the taxpayer to manufacturer subsidy of €10k) for the tiny Kona with inexorably rising prices.
That's just plain crazy :rolleyes:.

Have you seen the price of a new Skoda Scala once you kit it to match the spec you are getting in a standard SVE L40? Back in 2015 on a monthly basis a brand new L24SV was costing me cheaper to finance to buy than to run a 12 years old (next to faultless) A4 Avant.
Yes a removal of the subsidy would put an extra €100 a month on a new EVs now but most of what’s on the market has already decent range and it’s worth it IMO.

Kramer

peposhi wrote: »

Have you seen the price of a new Skoda Scala once you kit it to match the spec you are getting in a standard SVE L40?

I've no idea what a Skoda equivalent costs, nor the respective running costs of a Leaf 24 vs 12 year old Audi.
I am aware though that the Kona petrol (or diesel, can't remember which) was available for just over €20k (with scrappage offer) while the same car now costs €52k before subsidies, in EV format.

I think that's ridiculous & completely antithetical to mass EV adoption.

MJohnston

Kramer wrote: »

I've no idea what a Skoda equivalent costs, nor the respective running costs of a Leaf 24 vs 12 year old Audi.
I am aware though that the Kona petrol (or diesel, can't remember which) was available for just over €20k (with scrappage offer) while the same car now costs €52k before subsidies, in EV format.

I think that's ridiculous & completely antithetical to mass EV adoption.

Wait, hold on, it does your argument no favours at all to give the ICE Kona an unstated scrappage discount, and compare it to an EV Kona where you don’t include the subsides which are available to pretty much everyone.

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

Wait, hold on, it does your argument no favours at all to give the ICE Kona an unstated scrappage discount, and compare it to an EV Kona where you don’t include the subsides which are available to pretty much everyone.

Hyundai are responsible for the scrappage discount whereas my taxes contribute to the €10k subsidy/subvention. The scrappage discount technically costs the manufacturer, the €10k goes straight to them as largely profit (I'll wager).

Regardless, the point remains there's little to no incentive for most to consider going green, as evidenced by the 3% market penetration we're seeing.

MJohnston

Kramer wrote: »

Hyundai are responsible for the scrappage discount whereas my taxes contribute to the €10k subsidy/subvention. The scrappage discount technically costs the manufacturer, the €10k goes straight to them as largely profit (I'll wager).

Regardless, the point remains there's little to no incentive for most to consider going green, as evidenced by the 3% market penetration we're seeing.

Your taxes contribute only to the SEAI half of the subsidy, the other half is simply a VRT discount. But you’re also paying taxes whether you purchase an EV or not, so that doesn’t make any sense as an argument.

How much was the scrappage?

liamog

Even if you going to compare the Kona ICE, to Kona Electric, at least have the decency to pick ones with an equal spec.

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

I've no idea what a Skoda equivalent costs, nor the respective running costs of a Leaf 24 vs 12 year old Audi.
I am aware though that the Kona petrol (or diesel, can't remember which) was available for just over €20k (with scrappage offer) while the same car now costs €52k before subsidies, in EV format.

I think that's ridiculous & completely antithetical to mass EV adoption.

Kona is an extreme example as you well know. Not only has it a very long range (that people are prepared to pay a very high premium for). But also it has a high spec compared to the base model and an enormous performance difference. Have a look how much a base VW Golf one litre petrol is compared with a top spec Golf GTI and then come back here

I bought new Ioniq EV 3 years ago for €25k on the road. About the same price as a mid level spec Skoda Octavia diesel. The total cost of ownership of the Ioniq is only a fraction of that of the Octavia. Not just fuel cost or maintenance, but diesel cars have huge depreciation compared to EVs.

kanuseeme

you would have to do nearly 250 000 km to recover the cost difference between the kona ev and kona diesel @ 1.35 euro a liter doing 4.5/100km

unkel

kanuseeme wrote: »

you would have to do nearly 250 000 km to recover the cost difference between the kona ev and kona diesel @ 1.35 euro a liter doing 4.5/100km

Will you stop comparing these please and compare like for like EV with internal combustion car? Like a Ioniq / Leaf EV vs say Skoda Octavia diesel?

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

Kona is an extreme example as you well know.

The new Ioniq increased in price to almost what, €37k? The E-Niro is increasing to €42k(swapping the paddy spec 8" screen for the newer 10.25"), E-Soul not far off, base M3 starts at €48k..............all net of €10k subsidy/subvention.

Why would anyone spend those amounts with mainstream media disparaging EVs at every turn & then face the public charging infrastructure debacle :rolleyes:.
Unless there's a seismic shift in something, EV adoption may well plateaux soon, in low single digits, because the stasis at present doesn't serve anyone bar oil companies, traditional car manufacturers & governments of course - love their tax!

You've already said there's no real value in EVs at present, save for a few models. That's with a €10k reduction on ALL EVs.
Buying a bargain basement Ioniq three years ago was all well & good, but that's meaningless now. A new 38kWh Ioniq for €25k...........now that would be something to get excited about & what is necessary for progress IMO.

I'm inclined more towards pessimism to be honest as all we have from those in power is platitudes & soundbites.

unkel

Aye I agree with you Kramer that progress hasn't exactly been stellar in the last few years and nothing much is happening this year either. I'll remain positive for what's to come from next year though

kanuseeme

unkel wrote: »

Will you stop comparing these please and compare like for like EV with internal combustion car? Like a Ioniq / Leaf EV vs say Skoda Octavia diesel?

I know what your saying, but you have 2 kona side by side in a factory car park, every one in the canteen will be asking questions about the kona's not the skoda parked beside them.

Nothing on the EV model justifies they expense of it.

cheapest leaf is €29,890 sv 40kWh MY19 270km Range (WLTP*)

cheapest skoda is Skoda Octavia Hatchback 1.0 TSI 115BHP ACTIVE
Starting Price: €22,025 acceleration is only 2 seconds behind the leaf and they say 60 mpg.

say 47 mpg which is 6 l/100 km 8.70 euro every 100 km

difference in price is 7865 which will give you 90 000 km till you pay the same as a leaf.


I know not the same , but its a hard sell on that alone without any of problems of dealing with phev's at a rapid.

unkel

kanuseeme wrote: »

I know what your saying, but you have 2 kona side by side in a factory car park, every one in the canteen will be asking questions about the kona's not the skoda parked beside them.

Nothing on the EV model justifies they expense of it.

It was the best selling EV in Ireland last year, so a lot of people wouldn't agree with you.

kanuseeme

302 out of 658 kona's were EV.

peposhi

kanuseeme wrote: »

Nothing on the EV model justifies they expense of it.

cheapest leaf is €29,890 sv 40kWh MY19 270km Range (WLTP*)

cheapest skoda is Skoda Octavia Hatchback 1.0 TSI 115BHP ACTIVE
Starting Price: €22,025 acceleration is only 2 seconds behind the leaf and they say 60 mpg.

say 47 mpg which is 6 l/100 km 8.70 euro every 100 km

difference in price is 7865 which will give you 90 000 km till you pay the same as....

Following your line a thought - let’s compare Dacia Sandero for €12k off the shelf vs cheapest L40SV for €30k...
wow that’s €18k difference - enough to buy a second Sandero, just in case the first one gets f...d up and you’re left with €6k to spare for fuel and lollipops...

I’m not saying Kona EVs price is what it should be (I can’t justify purchase of one either hence I never even bothered looking at it) but as I mentioned earlier - a Skoda Scala fully kitted to match the spec of an L40SVE comes close to €2k more expensive than the Leaf... Octavia, severely kitted to match Kia eSoul matches the price and exceeds it once you put some more extras....