Random EV thoughts.....

liamog

I was driving past the Peugeot dealer where I test drove an uncharged e208. It made me think, I wonder how the less clued in dealers have been storing their EVs?
Hopefully they charged them to around 70% and let them sit, but it wouldn't surprise me if some bright spark decide to leave it plugged in.

SomeGuyCalledMi

Is that electric mustang ever going to happen?

liamog

SomeGuyCalledMi wrote: »

Is that electric mustang ever going to happen?

This one? https://www.ford.ie/cars/mustang-mach-e

liamog

In light of the discussion of abbreviated names, I think we should suggest some alternates for current models.

I think we should call the e-Niro "The Robert" because its de Niro.
The e-Up! will be called "The Yorkshireman"
The Model 3 shall be called "Elon's affordable car for former BMW/Audi drivers"
The Ioniq shall be called "The Actual Affordable EV" (but only in it's 28kWh form, the updated version shall be called "The Letdown")

Anyone else got suggestions?

Busman Paddy Lasty

"The Jackeen" Mini EV with the rear lights :-)

+1 for Robert. eNiro in my driveway has been Robert since day 1

Gforcemurphy

That’s great, really - but here’s my conundrum:

We just found out a few days ago that the missus is pregnant with no. 3. Exciting, but a wee scary.

We’ve been thinking and talking about changing the car, but this news will probably force our hand one way or another. We currently drive a 2008 Audi Avant. Great car, but old now (if still in relatively good nick) and a diesel. We’ve been saying we would like to go electric for our next one, if at all possible. (One car is enough for us, I commute by Dart, or at least did before the madness.)

That’s the thing, though. From where I’m sitting, it’s really hard to hit all the bases we want, without being ‘mugs’ and buying new.

The car needs to be able to fit 5 people, and the stuff that comes with that, fairly comfortably. Our eldest will be 8 next year, so she could go to a booster and we won’t necessarily have to have 3 car seats, which would limit our options further.

I’ve been watching these boards for months now, and have been learning what I can about BEVs. I’ve also been obsessing a little about “that electric Mustang”, to address the posts above, and have been soaking up all news on that car on forums etc. The reason for this is that I think it looks great, but also occupies that rare space of being both a family car and a BEV, without being a Model X (or Y for that matter).

However I would still have to fork out €50k plus to get one. Of course were we all to fast-forward three or four years, maybe I wouldn’t feel like my hand is being forced so much. But here we are. Either I shell out big time (and I’ve never bought a new car), or I suck it up and get another ICE car, for now at least. (Not sure hybrid is the solution either, as it may not be as efficient an option.)

We could, at a stretch, afford the Mustang I suppose, but the finances would definitely feel it. (There is also the frustrating fact that Ford.ie won’t even let you pre-order, unlike US, UK, etc. so who knows when you could actually get one, maybe 2021 some time. Model Y would also be a waiting game.)

So what’s supposed to give? Our desire to get a BEV (for both noble and selfish reasons)? Our purchasing power after we stretch ourselves financially? Or do we just keep the current car and leave one of the kids in the house at all times?

unkel wrote: »

My car depreciated about GBP40k for the first owner over 3 years. Then it depreciated a further GBP32k for the second owner over the next 3 years. Given the resale value of the batteries, the car now only has a maximum of a few more thousand to depreciate. Many thanks to the previous owners for taking the brunt of the financial burden away from me

Experience_day

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

That’s great, really - but here’s my conundrum:

We just found out a few days ago that the missus is pregnant with no. 3. Exciting, but a wee scary.

We’ve been thinking and talking about changing the car, but this news will probably force our hand one way or another. We currently drive a 2008 Audi Avant. Great car, but old now (if still in relatively good nick) and a diesel. We’ve been saying we would like to go electric for our next one, if at all possible. (One car is enough for us, I commute by Dart, or at least did before the madness.)

That’s the thing, though. From where I’m sitting, it’s really hard to hit all the bases we want, without being ‘mugs’ and buying new.

The car needs to be able to fit 5 people, and the stuff that comes with that, fairly comfortably. Our eldest will be 8 next year, so she could go to a booster and we won’t necessarily have to have 3 car seats, which would limit our options further.

I’ve been watching these boards for months now, and have been learning what I can about BEVs. I’ve also been obsessing a little about “that electric Mustang”, to address the posts above, and have been soaking up all news on that car on forums etc. The reason for this is that I think it looks great, but also occupies that rare space of being both a family car and a BEV, without being a Model X (or Y for that matter).

However I would still have to fork out €50k plus to get one. Of course were we all to fast-forward three or four years, maybe I wouldn’t feel like my hand is being forced so much. But here we are. Either I shell out big time (and I’ve never bought a new car), or I suck it up and get another ICE car, for now at least. (Not sure hybrid is the solution either, as it may not be as efficient an option.)

We could, at a stretch, afford the Mustang I suppose, but the finances would definitely feel it. (There is also the frustrating fact that Ford.ie won’t even let you pre-order, unlike US, UK, etc. so who knows when you could actually get one, maybe 2021 some time. Model Y would also be a waiting game.)

So what’s supposed to give? Our desire to get a BEV (for both noble and selfish reasons)? Our purchasing power after we stretch ourselves financially? Or do we just keep the current car and leave one of the kids in the house at all times?

First thing that jumps out at me is your reluctance to finance. If you're having qualms now I'd say trust your instinct and wait til financially better. There is a question mark on where world economy is going so personally would be avoiding unneeded debt at the moment. 2008 Audi is pretty nice, a lot more modern and pleasant than a lot of people's. If it's not costing the earth to run, I'd question buying a 50k replacement. Maybe save up a bit more and reassess in 2 years? You are going to have your hands full anyway with number 3! (Congrats!!)

drunkmonkey

Nurse on the Avant, there will be plenty of bargains in a few months and I'd say well into next year, now's not the time to buy.
Personally I think with the 3 you could do with a 7 seater, something like a Peugeot 5008, xc90, x5, q7 is probably what you should be looking at or just save the pennies until the Avant gives up.

Black_Knight

If the Avant can suffice for the 5 of ye, use that time to let the ev you want depreciate. Second hand Model X, model S (7 seater option also).
Is the desired move to EV to be more eco friendly, or fuel cost savings?
Do ye do much driving as is?
Work out what the Avant is costing per year (tax, NCT, fuel, servicing, depreciation (of which there shouldn't be much)) Vs an EV (depreciation will be a big one here though - less of an issue if you're charging car regardless). Might help focus on when the right time to change is.

Would you be sure the ford would fit 3 in the back (2 car seats and a booster)?

Gforcemurphy

Black_Knight wrote: »

If the Avant can suffice for the 5 of ye, use that time to let the ev you want depreciate. Second hand Model X, model S (7 seater option also).
Is the desired move to EV to be more eco friendly, or fuel cost savings?
Do ye do much driving as is?
Work out what the Avant is costing per year (tax, NCT, fuel, servicing, depreciation (of which there shouldn't be much)) Vs an EV (depreciation will be a big one here though - less of an issue if you're charging car regardless). Might help focus on when the right time to change is.

Would you be sure the ford would fit 3 in the back (2 car seats and a booster)?

Our driving wouldn’t be heavy at all. Nearby School runs, shopping, odd trip into town (from Greystones) or down to Wicklow to visit family. Kerry about twice a year. Did a camping trip by ferry to South of France last year but that might be the last(!)

To be honest the EV desire is both eco and cost savings focused. Just think it’s the way forward also, and we’re not the types to change cars every couple of years. Plus if I’m being honest there’s a ‘shiny new thing’ aspect about the Mach E and electric cars in general. Fun to drive (apparently).

So you’re probably right about separating want and need. On the latter, I’d say at a squeeze we could fit the three kids in the back of the Avant with a bit of ingenuity. Having looked at the specs, I do think the Mach E would work (it’s a bit wider than the Avant anyway).

Thanks all for the advice. The cost comparison Excel sheet is a good idea also, will serve to focus the mind.

markpb

We recently added a third child to our family and our Insigna died around the same time so we were on the hunt for a car that could hold 3 car seats or 2 car seats and a booster. I’m not a fan of SUV/CUVs and tried really hard to find a saloon that would meet our requirement. I also wanted it to be an EV, partly for eco reasons. In the end I gave up, none of them seemed like viable options. Cars just aren’t built for the mini-thrones that car seats seem to be. There are some options like putting the baby seat in the middle but that just seems like a royal pain if the baby ever needs to come out(!).

I had resigned myself to buying a regular SUV/CUV like the 5008 but I got lucky and got a second-hand Model X in the UK. For anyone who can afford it (they definitely are not cheap!), they’re a terrific family car, especially the 6 seat model. There’s plenty of room in the third row for children (even an adult at a push), getting babies in with the FWD is a breeze and the boot isn’t bad and the frunk helps with additional storage. The gap between the two seats in the middle row means that kids and their scooters can get to the third row without waiting an eternity for the middle row to shuffle forwards. This might sound silly but they’re already very easy to keep clean. There are very few places where little people can shove crayons or food where it can’t be retrieved. And yes, I’d still prefer a saloon.

Black_Knight

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

Our driving wouldn’t be heavy at all. Nearby School runs, shopping, odd trip into town (from Greystones) or down to Wicklow to visit family. Kerry about twice a year. Did a camping trip by ferry to South of France last year but that might be the last(!)

To be honest the EV desire is both eco and cost savings focused.

EV will be environmentally friendly for sure, and running costs will be next to nothing. (I do a bit less than 15k km a year these days and Vs my old 09 Passat cc I reckon in saving about 1000 a year, but my second hand ioniq is depreciating more than that, but... New/shiney as you say)

Cost savings will be hard to justify a new car in paper. 50k to save ~1k per year (ex depreciation) on an EV Vs maybe 40k on an ice car. 10 years to be worth it. Price up your options yourself and see how the maths stacks up against ya... Then manipulate them.

Having said all that, I'll be in a similar situation to yourself shortly enough, and I can't see myself going ICE if we can afford an EV which works for us. They're a much more pleasant drive.

Water John

Murphy, all your attention wasn't taken up on Boards, obviously. Congrats.
Know this has been discussed but has anyone a list of what EVs are for launch in the next couple of years?
Covid -19 might actually bring EV changeover forward in factories.

Lantus

Murphy, if you can easily afford 50k go for it but why spend so much on a car? Buy a 25 to 30k car and imagine what crazy adventures you could enjoy with the difference. When your kids are old and left you won't reminisce about the electric mustang.

I'd have a keen eye on a 5008. A nice bit of metal to transport you to places where you can watch your kids smile and still have a few quid to buy them an ice cream.

kanuseeme

Make/Model 2016 Price (New) 2019 Valuation Depreciation %
1 Volvo XC90 T8 (Hybrid) £64,150 £44,250 31%
2 Mercedes- C350e (Hybrid) £42,285 £25,500 40%
3 Tesla Model S (Electric) £66,880 £38,250 43%
4 Mitsub Out PHEV (Hybrid) £34,749 £19,000 45%
5 Audi A3 e-tron (Hybrid) £35,875 £18,900 47%
6 VW Golf GTE (hybrid) £31,625 £16,400 48%
7 BMW i3 (i3 REX) (Electric) £31,060 £15,600 50%
8 Nissan Leaf (Electric) £27,835 £13,100 53%
9 BMW 330e (Hybrid) £33,880 £15,900 53%
10 Renault Zoe (Electric) £19,988 £7,830 61%
Data: InsuretheGap, based on 3 years, 30,000 miles

Reading the posts got me thinking on depreciation of electric and hybrids, if you can believe it, I was surprised by Volvo being the best and only a plug in at that.

I done a quick search on auto trader and found this https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202003168473321?make=MERCEDES-BENZ&model=C%20CLASS&aggregatedTrim=C350e&sort=relevance&body-type=Estate&postcode=cv92pz&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&advertising-location=at_cars&maximum-mileage=30000&radius=1500&year-from=2017&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&page=1
2018 25k miles vrt around 2100 euro, all in you could get it for 26000 euro.

Plug in range is only 20 km or so but 2 hours would give you another 20 km,

Congratulations also

Gforcemurphy

markpb wrote: »

We recently added a third child to our family and our Insigna died around the same time so we were on the hunt for a car that could hold 3 car seats or 2 car seats and a booster. I’m not a fan of SUV/CUVs and tried really hard to find a saloon that would meet our requirement. I also wanted it to be an EV, partly for eco reasons. In the end I gave up, none of them seemed like viable options. Cars just aren’t built for the mini-thrones that car seats seem to be. There are some options like putting the baby seat in the middle but that just seems like a royal pain if the baby ever needs to come out(!).

I had resigned myself to buying a regular SUV/CUV like the 5008 but I got lucky and got a second-hand Model X in the UK. For anyone who can afford it (they definitely are not cheap!), they’re a terrific family car, especially the 6 seat model. There’s plenty of room in the third row for children (even an adult at a push), getting babies in with the FWD is a breeze and the boot isn’t bad and the frunk helps with additional storage. The gap between the two seats in the middle row means that kids and their scooters can get to the third row without waiting an eternity for the middle row to shuffle forwards. This might sound silly but they’re already very easy to keep clean. There are very few places where little people can shove crayons or food where it can’t be retrieved. And yes, I’d still prefer a saloon.

Interesting take, thanks a mil - also interesting that you found the 6-seater to be particularly family friendly. I would have through the 7-seater would be the go-to option as it would be wide enough for three kids and then use the third row of and when needed (the odd trip with friends or family), and loads of boot space most of the time. How do you find the boot space if you don’t mind me asking, assuming you need that third row most of the time? (I do get want you’re saying though re the ease of access through the gap in the second row, that could be pretty handy alright.)
Finance though is the elephant on the room for us. Cheapest on Autotrader right now is £50k, then there’s transport and VRT (after grant) to factor in, maybe another €5k? As you say, not cheap but definitely ticks all the other boxes.

liamog

kanuseeme wrote: »

Reading the posts got me thinking on depreciation of electric and hybrids, if you can believe it

I know there has been issues calculating depreciation on EV's. For instance the list price of the Leaf in that chart is £27,835 but if you look at wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20160202004319/http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/electric-vehicles/leaf/prices-and-equipment/compare-leaf-models.html you can see that a UK Leaf started at £15,790 and goes up to £21,490 for a Tekna. A lot of the depreciation reports ignore the grants that came with the purchases.

Most people will count depreciation against what they actually paid, not against some hyptothetical number before grants/incentives.

Gforcemurphy

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

Interesting take, thanks a mil - also interesting that you found the 6-seater to be particularly family friendly. I would have through the 7-seater would be the go-to option as it would be wide enough for three kids and then use the third row of and when needed (the odd trip with friends or family), and loads of boot space most of the time. How do you find the boot space if you don’t mind me asking, assuming you need that third row most of the time? (I do get want you’re saying though re the ease of access through the gap in the second row, that could be pretty handy alright.)
Finance though is the elephant on the room for us. Cheapest on Autotrader right now is £50k, then there’s transport and VRT (after grant) to factor in, maybe another €5k? As you say, not cheap but definitely ticks all the other boxes.

Jaysus, sorry for all the typos.

markpb

Gforcemurphy wrote: »

Interesting take, thanks a mil - also interesting that you found the 6-seater to be particularly family friendly. I would have through the 7-seater would be the go-to option as it would be wide enough for three kids and then use the third row of and when needed (the odd trip with friends or family), and loads of boot space most of the time. How do you find the boot space if you don’t mind me asking, assuming you need that third row most of the time? (I do get want you’re saying though re the ease of access through the gap in the second row, that could be pretty handy alright.)
Finance though is the elephant on the room for us. Cheapest on Autotrader right now is £50k, then there’s transport and VRT (after grant) to factor in, maybe another €5k? As you say, not cheap but definitely ticks all the other boxes.

I have a feeling the 3 seats in the middle row might not take 3 child seats, it would be the same problem as a standard saloon. You might possibly fit 2 child seats and a booster though.

One of the big benefits of the 6 seats configuration (apart from easy access to the third row) is space. It makes the entire cabin and, crucially, the third row feel roomier. The driver doesn’t have a headrest blocking the rear view mirror and they don’t have seats blocking their view of people in the third row. People in the back can see straight through, they can stretch their legs and they can easily carry on a conversation with people in the front.

The other advantage (relates to storage) is that it opens a lot of floor space for storing stuff. Scooters roll straight into the car and onto the floor. Shopping bags are fired into middle of the car. There’s ample space under the middle row seats to store a large baby bag and not have to wrestle it out of the car. It’s all very convenient.

The boot is a funny thing. It’s quite big but it’s tall rather than long which isn’t always convenient. It is very tall though, deceptively so. The shelf is very handy for splitting the boot in two. It folds away easily for stowing a pram. The back row folds (in newer models, the middle row of a 7 seat also fold) to make a roomy enough place. I had two childrens bikes and three children in the car today and still had plenty of room. There’s also the frunk which I use for storing car cleaning stuff, bottles on the way to the bottle bank, hot food collections, etc because of the limited space for them to move/spill. Empty, it will take a few shopping bags or sports bags too.

Between the baby and coronavirus, we haven’t been on any long drives or holidays yet ☹️☹️ so it’ll be interesting to see what it’s like getting two adults, three children, a pram and suitcases into the car but I’m up for a challenge!

I wrote on another thread recently that I was IMO screwed on VRT. Revenue valued my two year old car (MCUv1, APv2.5, 75d) just €20k under the price of a brand new long range model X so I paid 7k in VRT. I collected the car myself so the flight and ferry were cheap and the drive to Holyhead all by myself in my new car was the best holiday in years :-) I was the only EV on the ferry on the way back so I had the entire deck to myself. VIP travel!

kennethsmyth

kanuseeme wrote: »

Make/Model 2016 Price (New) 2019 Valuation Depreciation %
1 Volvo XC90 T8 (Hybrid) £64,150 £44,250 31%
2 Mercedes- C350e (Hybrid) £42,285 £25,500 40%
3 Tesla Model S (Electric) £66,880 £38,250 43%
4 Mitsub Out PHEV (Hybrid) £34,749 £19,000 45%
5 Audi A3 e-tron (Hybrid) £35,875 £18,900 47%
6 VW Golf GTE (hybrid) £31,625 £16,400 48%
7 BMW i3 (i3 REX) (Electric) £31,060 £15,600 50%
8 Nissan Leaf (Electric) £27,835 £13,100 53%
9 BMW 330e (Hybrid) £33,880 £15,900 53%
10 Renault Zoe (Electric) £19,988 £7,830 61%
Data: InsuretheGap, based on 3 years, 30,000 miles

Reading the posts got me thinking on depreciation of electric and hybrids, if you can believe it, I was surprised by Volvo being the best and only a plug in at that.

I done a quick search on auto trader and found this https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/202003168473321?make=MERCEDES-BENZ&model=C%20CLASS&aggregatedTrim=C350e&sort=relevance&body-type=Estate&postcode=cv92pz&fuel-type=Hybrid%20%E2%80%93%20Petrol%2FElectric%20Plug-in&advertising-location=at_cars&maximum-mileage=30000&radius=1500&year-from=2017&onesearchad=New&onesearchad=Nearly%20New&onesearchad=Used&page=1
2018 25k miles vrt around 2100 euro, all in you could get it for 26000 euro.

Plug in range is only 20 km or so but 2 hours would give you another 20 km,

Congratulations also

A lot of the depreciation on electrics seems to be early on and then stop at a level where the car is still very usable and keeps a base value. Whereas the normal cars or hybrids will continue to depreciate in the future with no base value being realised other than a normal secondhand value. I probably didnt explain that well but hopefully you can read through the mire.

YFlyer

Will there be a significant increase in sales of ebikes and scooters due to Covid19?

Water John

Avoiding public transport?

YFlyer

Water John wrote: »

Avoiding public transport?

Yes.

Water John

The're could options to consider. Is the bike to work scheme still in place?

YFlyer

Water John wrote: »

The're could options to consider. Is the bike to work scheme still in place?

I don't know. I'm based in Limerick city. It should be manageable for many people to cycle from one side of the city to the other. People living in Corbally/Shannon banks could get to the University and Castletroy via the river.

unkel

Pandemic or not, the sale of electric bike and scooters will go through the roof. It already has in other countries like the Netherlands where for the first time electric bikes outsold push bikes last year. Ireland is as usual a year or two behind the curve, but it's happening here too.

YFlyer

unkel wrote: »

Pandemic or not, the sale of electric bike and scooters will go through the roof. It already has in other countries like the Netherlands where for the first time electric bikes outsold push bikes last year. Ireland is as usual a year or two behind the curve, but it's happening here too.

Without me googling for figures, I'm sure majority of adults in the Netherlands have a bicycle or few. Sure the parents are probably given one of the bikes to their children and buying an electric bike.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Pandemic or not, the sale of electric bike and scooters will go through the roof. It already has in other countries like the Netherlands where for the first time electric bikes outsold push bikes last year. Ireland is as usual a year or two behind the curve, but it's happening here too.

just imagine if everyone in Dublin got an electric scooter!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZupwFOhjl4

Black_Knight

Fully charged put up a video on affordable EVs. Was hoping to be surprised and see any decent sized car o wasn't aware of, but no. Shame they're all small cars.

Affordable, yes. Good value Vs their ice alternatives, I'm not so sure.

KCross

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/aldi-announces-plans-to-open-new-store-in-cork-1001933.html

Powered by 100% green electricity, it will also include two free-to-use electric vehicle charging points outside the store.

Presumably slow chargers which wont be much use but anyway....