Random EV thoughts.....

AndyBoBandy · 27-08-2020 12:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe some day we'll have ev's with generators be they fuel cell or some form of synthetic biofuel, with a 64 kwh battery fuel consumption would be minuscule but the benefits of on board generator are huge and you wouldn't have all the nonsense of these chargers or lack of, broken, in use, queues etc.

Wireless charging, while parked or driving along motorways/national roads will be the future of EV's, you'll leave the motorway with a full charge. (that that's Off Topic, and a few decades away)

No need to lug heavy (inefficient) generators around with you.

27-08-2020 1:20pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Wireless charging, while parked or driving along motorways/national roads will be the future of EV's, you'll leave the motorway with a full charge. (that that's Off Topic, and a few decades away)

No need to lug heavy (inefficient) generators around with you.

lol well for the next few decades a generator is more than good enough and the rex is cheaper to run on petrol than charge at Ionity for the same 100 Kms. Could be fuel cell or Bio fuel, synthetic maybe.

I use maybe 8 litres of Petrol every 2-3 months, probably a bit more in the Winter, costs me around 10 Euro's for a fill, the tank is 8 litres. Avoids completely the need for public charging and is best of both worlds and no need to build out expensive infrastructure that's going to take a long time.

liamog · 27-08-2020 1:28pm

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

Wireless charging, while parked or driving along motorways/national roads will be the future of EV's, you'll leave the motorway with a full charge. (that that's Off Topic, and a few decades away)

No need to lug heavy (inefficient) generators around with you.

I don't see wireless motorway charging really catching on. Wireless chargers in car parks would make sense.

unkel · 27-08-2020 2:20pm

Wireless induction charging for EVs is current tech. It is not technically difficult. In fact it was offered by BMW (of all suppliers!) years ago as a complete home install for €3k iirc, this included the fitting of a pad into the concrete floor of your driveway / garage.

It sure is the way forward for slow stationary charging. Using cables is beyond ridiculous. But I've been saying that about mobile phones for a long time too and still plenty of people seem to plug their phone in to charge. Really backwards when nearly all phones have wireless charging now and a half decent wireless charger costs just a tenner.

liamog · 27-08-2020 2:27pm

unkel wrote: »

It sure is the way forward for slow stationary charging. Using cables is beyond ridiculous. But I've been saying that about mobile phones for a long time too and still plenty of people seem to plug their phone in to charge.

As much as I like wireless charging for phones, the drawbacks to doing so are too high. I tend to charge my phone whilst using it, so in that case it's just easier to go with a wire.
The car is different, I'd love to have a wireless charging pad in the space outside the house. Just park up and it kicks in automatically.

ELM327 · 27-08-2020 2:39pm

Deleted User wrote: »

lol well for the next few decades a generator is more than good enough and the rex is cheaper to run on petrol than charge at Ionity for the same 100 Kms. Could be fuel cell or Bio fuel, synthetic maybe.

I use maybe 8 litres of Petrol every 2-3 months, probably a bit more in the Winter, costs me around 10 Euro's for a fill, the tank is 8 litres. Avoids completely the need for public charging and is best of both worlds and no need to build out expensive infrastructure that's going to take a long time.

There's a real argument to be made for that, maybe with a 20l tank.

300km EV range and then you're on petrol. No public infrastructure needed, just "fill up" at home overnight and use petrol for longer trips.

unkel · 27-08-2020 2:43pm

liamog wrote: »

I tend to charge my phone whilst using it

Seriously? Why? Not wanting to go too far off topic here, but that intrigues me

If you're sitting at your desk (or where ever) would you not just have a wireless charger in front of you and plonk the phone on it any time you are not actively using it?

Unless your battery is either useless / near dead and / or you are a super heavy phone user. In both cases I would just strap a 20Ah powerbank to the phone and use that :pac:

MJohnston · 27-08-2020 3:18pm

unkel wrote: »

Seriously? Why? Not wanting to go too far off topic here, but that intrigues me

If you're sitting at your desk (or where ever) would you not just have a wireless charger in front of you and plonk the phone on it any time you are not actively using it?

Unless your battery is either useless / near dead and / or you are a super heavy phone user. In both cases I would just strap a 20Ah powerbank to the phone and use that :pac:

Did you know that for phones, which are in very close contact with the induction coils, wireless charging is on average 40% less efficient than wired charging? This is a severe problem with the technology in compact devices, no matter how convenient it might be.

Cars are more sophisticated and less compact than a phone obviously, so they can mitigate a lot of the energy loss, and are therefore much more efficient.

liamog · 27-08-2020 3:54pm

unkel wrote: »

Seriously? Why? Not wanting to go too far off topic here, but that intrigues me

Get yourself addicted to a Star Trek Fleet command, and you'll drain the battery between morning and 6pm. Similarly when I go to bed, I tend to read a lot on the phone before drifting off to sleep. Having the cable means I don't have to worry about placing the phone in the right place.

I find Qi charging useful for places like the car, where I will put the phone in one place, and resist the urge to pick it up until I stop driving.

unkel · 27-08-2020 4:19pm

liamog wrote: »

when I go to bed, I tend to read a lot on the phone before drifting off to sleep. Having the cable means I don't have to worry about placing the phone in the right place.

Fair enough. I wish I had that problem of falling asleep so easily

MJohnston wrote: »

Did you know that for phones, which are in very close contact with the induction coils, wireless charging is on average 40% less efficient than wired charging?

So it costs 1.5c to fully charge your phone wirelessly instead of 1c?

A recent study of wireless charging taxis in Norway found that there was very little in it between wired and wireless charging of the cars. As per above example, I couldn't care less if it cost me €250 instead of €230 to charge my car at home for the full year. The utter convenience of just parking and leaving. Beats even my tethered setup where my charge cable head is resting just inches away from the charge connection in my car.

Calahonda52 · 27-08-2020 4:23pm

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/0827/1161643-electric-car-sales-europe-2020-coronavirus/
.
The shift to electric

Economic factors are likely to be playing a role in the very large shift to electric vehicles. First, the variety of EVs available has increased, even in the last six months. And each new model appears more and more aligned with the driving needs of the typical family (range, charging and size).

Second, it is possible that the EV buyer segment, who tend to be wealthier, has been less affected by the crisis. Evidence from a different car segment might support this hypothesis: in Germany, for example, the decline in sales of more expensive luxury brands was lower. In terms of EV prices, while many government COVID-19 recovery packages included more grants for EVs (Germany and France), these changes came too late in the year (June) to explain the above trends.

My emphasis: must be all those Teslas:D

27-08-2020 7:13pm

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Second, it is possible that the EV buyer segment, who tend to be wealthier, has been less affected by the crisis.

My emphasis: must be all those Teslas:D

The more senior the role, the more likely they are to be able to WFH thus also saving on commuter costs as well, virtually no "shopfloor" staff are able to WFH.

MJohnston · 27-08-2020 8:25pm

unkel wrote: »

Fair enough. I wish I had that problem of falling asleep so easily

So it costs 1.5c to fully charge your phone wirelessly instead of 1c?

A recent study of wireless charging taxis in Norway found that there was very little in it between wired and wireless charging of the cars. As per above example, I couldn't care less if it cost me €250 instead of €230 to charge my car at home for the full year. The utter convenience of just parking and leaving. Beats even my tethered setup where my charge cable head is resting just inches away from the charge connection in my car.

I wasn’t really referring to personal cost, just the environmental cost of widespread wireless charging.

unkel · 27-08-2020 8:45pm

Clutching at straws much?

It makes feck all difference to the environment if all 5 billion mobile phones in the world are charged wirelessly. Let's concentrate on getting a billion diesel vehicles off the road first and then just to make all electricity zero emissions, shall we...

Jizique · 27-08-2020 8:55pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The more senior the role, the more likely they are to be able to WFH thus also saving on commuter costs as well, virtually no "shopfloor" staff are able to WFH.

A high proportion of car sales in Germany are corporate (the tax system favours the important industry), so these cars would tend to be sold anyway, except in a severe recession.

MJohnston · 28-08-2020 9:58am

unkel wrote: »

Clutching at straws much?

It makes feck all difference to the environment if all 5 billion mobile phones in the world are charged wirelessly. Let's concentrate on getting a billion diesel vehicles off the road first and then just to make all electricity zero emissions, shall we...

Clutching at straws—what? I simply replied to your incredulity about why people wouldn't always use wireless charging with one possible reason. <<Mod Note: snip>>

I personally use wireless charging all the time, but I'm not so short-sighted as to think that other people won't be taking the inefficiencies into account.

MJohnston · 28-08-2020 10:01am

By the by, I'd bet a lot of people have cheap, ****ty wireless chargers which create way too much heat. As well as being severely inefficient, those ones will rapidly degrade your phone's battery. Maybe that is something you care about?

ELM327 · 28-08-2020 10:04am

I personally don't get the obsession with wireless charging.
For EVs especially, transferring that amount of power is going to be super inefficient.

Black_Knight · 28-08-2020 10:11am

ELM327 wrote: »

I personally don't get the obsession with wireless charging.
For EVs especially, transferring that amount of power is going to be super inefficient.

Ditto. Might change my mind when it becomes the standard (like it's going in phones) but right now I'm ok with plugging in the car (if I could get it fixed) and getting 10% losses.

MJohnston · 28-08-2020 10:15am

ELM327 wrote: »

I personally don't get the obsession with wireless charging.
For EVs especially, transferring that amount of power is going to be super inefficient.

Apparently it's not, though it's hard to find a study on this that isn't done by one of the companies pushing wireless EV charging!

US Department of Energy claims 97% efficiency: https://insideevs.com/news/340478/120-kw-wireless-charging-proves-97-efficient/

But that's under lab conditions.

KCross · 28-08-2020 10:36am

MJohnston wrote: »

Apparently it's not....

But that's under lab conditions.

Thats the key there.

Its easy to make it efficient if you can line up the two plates. Obviously in the lab they will have that down to a fine art.

Any wireless charging system in an EV would need to be automated in some way. It cant be a "parking sensor" type system where you get lights or beeps to tell you that you are aligned and then having to back up and try again to get it right. I'd rather just spend the 5 secs pushing in the cable and be done with it.

If they implement a system where you drive up to the general area of the pad and it automatically interlocks for you then grand, i'll have that.

But they are still developing charging standards for cables, not to mind wireless!
And no doubt it will be an expensive add-on if/when it arrives so dont hold your breath for it.

MJohnston · 28-08-2020 11:04am

Yes, to be clear, I'm not clamouring for wireless EV charging at all, just pointing to some studies done on the topic.

Kramer · 28-08-2020 5:41pm

KCross wrote: »

Its easy to make it efficient if you can line up the two plates. Obviously in the lab they will have that down to a fine art.

BMW managed it seamlessly, with no lab required :P.

With the advent of autonomous cars, it would be very easy for the car to align itself perfectly over a charging plate on a driveway, or embedded in a parking space.
I think it would be great to just park on a driveway & walk away.

28-08-2020 5:57pm

Kramer wrote: »

I think it would be great to just park on a driveway & walk away.

I can just see it now, in the future people will drive to their front door, get out and send off their cars to park up!

JohnC. · 28-08-2020 6:18pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I can just see it now, in the future people will drive to their front door, get out and send off their cars to park up!

I remember Tesla were toying with that a few years ago, but with a plug. Combining self driving to get the car beside a home charge point and they made a charge point that could then plug itself into the car. Wireless would be even better.

Found a prototype video. It looks a bit creepy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI

Kramer · 28-08-2020 6:19pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I can just see it now, in the future people will drive to their front door, get out and send off their cars to park up!

Sure just park up in your own driveway/garage, like this guy. No need to send the car anywhere

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28-08-2020 6:37pm

I was thinking more about the lazy sods who would drive through their front doors if they could to avoid walking a few metres.

Kramer · 28-08-2020 6:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I was thinking more about the lazy sods who would drive through their front doors if they could to avoid walking a few metres.

The guy above has actually driven into his house, right to the foot of the stairs :eek:.
He looks rather slim though & obviously is a successful professional, having chosen an executive German saloon, so he can't be too lazy I guess

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