Random EV thoughts.....

Silent Running

DrPhilG wrote: »

On the back roads...

With a cold battery... :P

JPA

Silent Running wrote: »

With a cold battery... :P

Don't forget the roads have to be wet!

mp3guy

JPA wrote: »

Don't forget the roads have to be wet!

With a roof rack, in a storm.

MJohnston

Some chatter about VRT relief for EVs being tapered off above €40,000 with no relief above €50,000.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/diesel-price-hike-and-motor-tax-overhaul-proposed-for-budget-2021-1017909.html

Cyrus

MJohnston wrote: »

Some chatter about VRT relief for EVs being tapered off above €40,000 with no relief above €50,000.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/diesel-price-hike-and-motor-tax-overhaul-proposed-for-budget-2021-1017909.html

i knew it was coming, didnt know how quickly.

I really like the idea of this:

Warning: German audio.
5.5kwh battery. top speed 45kmph
Drive on a moped licence from 15 or 16 years of age.
Charge in 3 hours from a wall outlet.
According to the presenter, Jan, it costs €7k in France with lease deals for 20 euro per month in France.
Place your phone in the holster, hook up the bluetooth speaker and you are sorted.
Drive it to the airport or long distance bus stop and hop on to them for long distance travel.
smaller than a smart so you can park headlong in to half a parking spot.

If you have an old second car for use around the locality with big repairs coming then you can try this out.

France have a long history of quadricycles but I think the addition of electric motors and batteries can bring them in to the mainstream.

Another car I really like the idea of. I present to you the WULING HONGGUANG MINI EV

Warning! Chinese/Mandarin Audio

A four seater or two-plus-two for more corpulent people out there.
Another car that could replace your old second car which is on its last legs.

Silent Running

KCross wrote: »

Apparently a software bug in the v3 super chargers.

Won’t last long I’d say!

Oh really?

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/13/non-tesla-electric-cars-can-now-charge-for-free-on-some-european-tesla-superchargers/

Kramer

Silent Running wrote: »

Oh really?

https://cleantechnica.com/2020/09/13/non-tesla-electric-cars-can-now-charge-for-free-on-some-european-tesla-superchargers/

I can see them being forced to provide charging to non Tesla EVs, but not for free!

Silent Running

Kramer wrote: »

I can see them being forced to provide charging to non Tesla EVs, but not for free!

No, but I think that Tesla probably made one or two available at each V3 site to comply until they can figure out how to charge enough to put anyone off using them.

slave1

IF and it's a big IF as there is plenty of chat that this is not real legislation, then Telsa will surely follow the Tesla Destination Charger philosophy and have two superchargers all white for example and they will be for all cars, remaining superchargers Tesla exclusive.
If Tesla allow ALL superchargers for everyone to use then they have lost a considerable market advantage and both current Tesla owners and shareholders will blow a fuse. Kickback will be massive

AndyBoBandy

They'll have no way to enact billing on them will they? unless the V3's have some sort of rfid reader, or they can be activated via an app or something??

I wouldn't be a happy Tesla driver plugging into a Supercharger and being charged their going rate, and an ID.3 plugs in after me and charges for free....

jhegarty

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

They'll have no way to enact billing on them will they? unless the V3's have some sort of rfid reader, or they can be activated via an app or something??

I wouldn't be a happy Tesla driver plugging into a Supercharger and being charged their going rate, and an ID.3 plugs in after me and charges for free....

I think CCS can read the cars Vin number. That can be used for registration/online payment.

liamog

jhegarty wrote: »

I think CCS can read the cars Vin number. That can be used for registration/online payment.

It can read the MAC address of the network adapter used as part of the communications when setting up the connection. Plug&Charge is due in the next year or so, which allows digital certificates to be exchanged to identify the charging account. I believe Tesla already use a similar system for billing.

i.e. certificate on the car handles the identification and billing.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

It can read the MAC address of the network adapter used as part of the communications when setting up the connection. Plug&Charge is due in the next year or so, which allows digital certificates to be exchanged to identify the charging account. I believe Tesla already use a similar system for billing.

i.e. certificate on the car handles the identification and billing.

I wonder can I spoof the MAC address to bill the charging to someone else

liamog

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I wonder can I spoof the MAC address to bill the charging to someone else

Probably, but I expect it's going to take a lot of resources to figure out how I'm looking forward to your presentation at DEF CON.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

Probably, but I expect it's going to take a lot of resources to figure out how I'm looking forward to your presentation at DEF CON.

I can guarantee someone's going to try

Silent Running

cruisey1987 wrote: »

I can guarantee someone's going to try

...or is already doing it, but keeping quiet about it for obvious reasons.

MJohnston

Here's a white paper on the insecurity of EV chargers:
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/sec19-baker.pdf

There's a section 9.3 that's relevant to this discussion. Essentially, the charging stations themselves are the weak link, as their network communications can be snooped to capture MAC addresses of valid cars charging.

Otherwise you'd have to guess the MAC address of a valid car, which would be very difficult.

markpb

MJohnston wrote: »

Otherwise you'd have to guess the MAC address of a valid car, which would be very difficult.

MAC addresses for computers are very predicable. Are CCS MAC addresses any different?

MJohnston

markpb wrote: »

MAC addresses for computers are very predicable. Are CCS MAC addresses any different?

They have the same upper 24-bit manufacturer addressing, but I don't think you can predict anything beyond that (that's a guess though!) and network sniffing is the only practical way of getting a valid MAC to misuse (remember you'd have to guess not only a specific car, but one that has been registered with that exact auto-charging network).

This could all be solved with a bit of simple 2-factor authentication though — car is plugged in, MAC address matches, owner of car matching MAC address gets an app notification or text to tell them that charging will start in 1 minute.

If they do nothing, charging starts. If they respond that it's fraud, then charging does not start, the charging cable locks to the car, and the cops get called (maybe the last two parts are overkill).

liamog

As implemented by Fastned at the moment it's just using the MAC address as a distinct identifier. The ISO 15118 Plug&Charge system is much more complex. It's all based on PKI, if you want to geek out on it, here's an interesting report https://www.elaad.nl/uploads/files/Exploring_the_PKI_for_ISO_15118_in_the_EV_charging_ecoystem_V1.0s2.pdf

cannco253

Interesting article about Scotland EV loans - would this ever happen here?

"Scotland’s government will extend the Low Carbon Transport Loan to cover used EVs for the first time, starting on September 28. The extension will now enable an individual or business to obtain a loan of up to £20,000, interest free, over five years."

https://electrek.co/2020/09/15/scotland-interest-free-government-loans-used-evs/?fbclid=IwAR0krxGIBKCyY_Vi4Aoa4OvFspEnwHGNu1uk7MKrqerZY0y43zlAiazYpdw

slave1

Whatever chance we had of that is blown with Covid costs, we're gonna be a poor country for quite a while

MJohnston

And that's not true of Scotland?

Laviski

when budget is out will make for some reading.
grant to be tapered off for car's above 40k, nothing for anything 50k+
changes to the motor tax, EV should benefit but ICE cars will pay more.

graememk

Laviski wrote: »

when budget is out will make for some reading.
grant to be tapered off for car's above 40k, nothing for anything 50k+
changes to the motor tax, EV should benefit but ICE cars will pay more.

Well no mention of the grant in the rumours, but the VRT exemption is.

What way is the VRT calculated on new electric cars?

Say private buyer walks in and buys a car for 40k

in that 40k there is a VRT rebate of 5k and an SEAI grant of 5k

Is VRT calculated on the non grant price, Looking on the revenues website, its percentage payable of the open market selling price.

So the same new car without the seai grant and VRT rebate would be 50k? So 7000 euro of VRT? 14% of 50k

Then the SEAI grant comes off it, and then also the VRT rebate comes off it, and we're back to 40k?

Water John

The car dealership usually look after the paperwork on SEAI and VRT and you pay the net price.

Black_Knight

Laviski wrote: »

when budget is out will make for some reading.
grant to be tapered off for car's above 40k, nothing for anything 50k+
changes to the motor tax, EV should benefit but ICE cars will pay more.

What EV is there for less than 40k pre grants? Not sure any EV is an economical buy without the grants. Id4, enyaq, neither will be affordable here.

amadangomor

cannco253 wrote: »

Interesting article about Scotland EV loans - would this ever happen here?

"Scotland’s government will extend the Low Carbon Transport Loan to cover used EVs for the first time, starting on September 28. The extension will now enable an individual or business to obtain a loan of up to £20,000, interest free, over five years."

https://electrek.co/2020/09/15/scotland-interest-free-government-loans-used-evs/?fbclid=IwAR0krxGIBKCyY_Vi4Aoa4OvFspEnwHGNu1uk7MKrqerZY0y43zlAiazYpdw

I would jump at this if it happened here.

With the government's ability to borrow very cheaply at the moment it wouldn't cost them too much to roll it out.