Random EV thoughts.....

Thierry12

Thierry12 wrote: »

Think the Tesla Battery day highlighted the most gains are going to come from packaging, not higher density cells

Read somewhere that VW ID3 battery pack like many are only made up of 40% battery cells, by improving packaging ( cells to pack, cells to chassis etc ) they want to get that 40% to 60% cells to pack

58kWh becomes 87kWh without any change to battery chemistry

Yes, much of the Tesla talk was about reducing packaging, making the cells bigger reduces the amount of assembly work for starters, replacing the terminal tabs on the cell roll with a continuous conducting edge reduces assembly costs & time as well as making the cell smaller and improves heat transfer.



From the Tesla video, it appears that they're going to make the battery pack into a glued structural module and mount all the management systems under the seats instead of with the batteries. That alone will save about 20% of space.

Here is a video of a Bolt EV battery pack, lots of dead space in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssU2mjiNi_Q



The main game changer will be with the dry electrolyte assembly process, but it appears they're not quite there yet.

liamog

Thierry12 wrote: »

Think the Tesla Battery day highlighted the most gains are going to come from packaging, not higher density cells

Yeah, most of the Chinese manufacturers are working on cell to pack technologies. BYD have their blade cells where one cell is the full width of the car.

liamog

I was half thinking of posting a "Pictures of your EV thread" but then though nah it's grand we can just post in the main motors forum.
Which got me thinking, at some point in the future we may see a flip on boards, imagine the day when the motors forum is mostly Zero Emission Vehicles and their is a specialist section for combustion cars. We're a good few years away from that.

Black_Knight

liamog wrote: »

I was half thinking of posting a "Pictures of your EV thread" but then though nah it's grand we can just post in the main motors forum.
Which got me thinking, at some point in the future we may see a flip on boards, imagine the day when the motors forum is mostly Zero Emission Vehicles and their is a specialist section for combustion cars. We're a good few years away from that.

I'd almost say Hybrids should go to the main forum, and BEV & PHEV only go here. Hybrids are just the norm now.

slave1

No time for hybrids, I can see why some see them as stepping stones but personally I loathe them, it's like giving up the fags every weekend but still smoking Monday to Friday, to each their own though...

Black_Knight

slave1 wrote: »

No time for hybrids, I can see why some see them as stepping stones but personally I loathe them, it's like giving up the fags every weekend but still smoking Monday to Friday, to each their own though...

Can't say I loath them. I nothing them. They're not a selling point to me. It's like saying this car has ABS. Sure what car doesn't?

liamog

I can see what you mean, there was a recent thread where I made a similar point, I don't think anybody should be actively trying to buy a hybrid anymore, it's just a weapon in the arsenal of a fuel efficient combustion car.
That's not saying you should avoid a hybrid, just that it's not particularly a valuable decision point either way.

I'd still make a distinction for PHEVs as you have the extra requirement of plugging in, the questions re chargers etc are in same area as BEVs.

the_amazing_raisin

Black_Knight wrote: »

Can't say I loath them. I nothing them. They're not a selling point to me. It's like saying this car has ABS. Sure what car doesn't?

To me hybrids are all of the problems associated with a petrol car (fuel, maintenance, air pollution) with none of the advantages of an EV


PHEVs are fine for people who needs them, but there's plenty of folks I've seen driving around PHEVs which are never plugged in, so they're effectively just a petrol car.


To drive a PHEV in an ideal way (~90% electric driving) would probably cause more problems since the petrol motor would suffer from lack of use

yop

cruisey1987 wrote: »

To me hybrids are all of the problems associated with a petrol car (fuel, maintenance, air pollution) with none of the advantages of an EV


PHEVs are fine for people who needs them, but there's plenty of folks I've seen driving around PHEVs which are never plugged in, so they're effectively just a petrol car.


To drive a PHEV in an ideal way (~90% electric driving) would probably cause more problems since the petrol motor would suffer from lack of use

As a PHEV newbie owner, why oh why would anyone have a hybrid!
Or have a PHEV which is never plugged in.

My own GTE experience is not great 3 months in. The range isn't anywhere near what has been suggested (VW telling porkies...! )
Luckily I am not doing the trips to work (80km each way) that I was doing twice per week pre covid or I'd be seriously peed off.
Brilliant car when its charged and love the electric benefits and performance, but once its gone and its on petrol its a big estate passat on a 1.4 petrol.

So my aim will be to go full EV in the next 12 months.


Apologise if gone off topic

Black_Knight

cruisey1987 wrote: »

PHEVs are fine for people who needs them, but there's plenty of folks I've seen driving around PHEVs which are never plugged in, so they're effectively just a petrol car.

I would have always thought so, but there's another market. Those who are unsure/scared of such a big change. Those who argue "what if I need to drive 200km to Dublin and back, and then there's an emergency and i've to drive to Mizen head?". My mother in law is basically that category. A BEV would suit her perfect. About 20k km a year, mostly tipping around town locally, then the odd 160km round trip or 160km overnight trip. Super rare 300km+ round trip. Completely competent, but irrational about how a 400km range car would catch her out.

yop wrote: »

Apologise if gone off topic

I think that's the purpose of this thread.

A nice way to dip your toe in though. Imagine going full EV and believing the range the manufacture quotes. I'd say you've learned plenty from your experience with a PHEV.

yop

Black_Knight wrote: »

I would have always thought so, but there's another market. Those who are unsure/scared of such a big change. Those who argue "what if I need to drive 200km to Dublin and back, and then there's an emergency and i've to drive to Mizen head?". My mother in law is basically that category. A BEV would suit her perfect. About 20k km a year, mostly tipping around town locally, then the odd 160km round trip or 160km overnight trip. Super rare 300km+ round trip. Completely competent, but irrational about how a 400km range car would catch her out.



I think that's the purpose of this thread.

A nice way to dip your toe in though. Imagine going full EV and believing the range the manufacture quotes. I'd say you've learned plenty from your experience with a PHEV.

I have indeed. For me its not going to work. IF I had received the suggested KMs as VW said then it would work a dream. But even though I talked it out with the VW team and they knew my daily trip back then, this isn't what I am getting.

A 1.4 petrol engine with a car like this when the range is averaging around 40km is just a guzzler. MAYBE they would be better with a 1.4 diesel.

But its just pushed/hurried me to a full EV. For now I'm a bit vain and what was there in the EV world in my pocket I couldn't find anything I liked and what had the size of an estate.
But now even 7 months later from my search and decision the ID 4, Skoda EV, etc etc has come out.

garo

Some of us here have a Model S. Just saying

yop

garo wrote: »

Some of us here have a Model S. Just saying

Adding you the "I hate you" list with Cruisey1987. Bloody rich kids


**kidding of course. Just jealous

garo

Pretty sure I spent less on that 2016 Model S than you did on your VW PHEV.

the_amazing_raisin

yop wrote: »

Adding you the "I hate you" list with Cruisey1987. Bloody rich kids


**kidding of course. Just jealous

Haha, I wish, I'm one of the poor commoners driving around in a 1st Gen Leaf

the_amazing_raisin

yop wrote: »

As a PHEV newbie owner, why oh why would anyone have a hybrid!
Or have a PHEV which is never plugged in.

My own GTE experience is not great 3 months in. The range isn't anywhere near what has been suggested (VW telling porkies...! )
Luckily I am not doing the trips to work (80km each way) that I was doing twice per week pre covid or I'd be seriously peed off.
Brilliant car when its charged and love the electric benefits and performance, but once its gone and its on petrol its a big estate passat on a 1.4 petrol.

So my aim will be to go full EV in the next 12 months.


Apologise if gone off topic

I think there was some BIK advantage for PHEVs as company cars up until last year, as well as the 2500 VRT rebate. So I think a lot of folks bought them through work without any intentions of charging them. Certainly my neighbours 530e hasn't seen a charger since it was bought


There was definitely an advantage to PHEVs when EVs were so scarce, or if you really want a particular body type like an estate or big SUV. That advantage is disappearing fast though

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

To me hybrids are all of the problems associated with a petrol car (fuel, maintenance, air pollution) with none of the advantages of an EV


PHEVs are fine for people who needs them, but there's plenty of folks I've seen driving around PHEVs which are never plugged in, so they're effectively just a petrol car.


To drive a PHEV in an ideal way (~90% electric driving) would probably cause more problems since the petrol motor would suffer from lack of use

To be honest I've been considering my "next move" car wise for some time now and I'd still consider a phev. The new x5 45e has a 24kWh battery so that would cover most of my local tipping about with a nightly charge, along with a lovely 6cyl engine note for longer trips, along with BMW premium interior (infinitely better than my Tesla).


As I no longer commute to work, and would probably only go in one day a week in future, I no longer need a long range EV.

cannco253

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/uncertainty-over-installation-of-electric-car-charging-points-in-county/

"Connemara area councillor Alastair McKinstry said that there could also be issues with the amount of electric current available in some places in the western part of the county."


I've never heard of issues around the amount of electric current available before - is this a problem countrywide?

graememk

cannco253 wrote: »

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/uncertainty-over-installation-of-electric-car-charging-points-in-county/

"Connemara area councillor Alastair McKinstry said that there could also be issues with the amount of electric current available in some places in the western part of the county."


I've never heard of issues around the amount of electric current available before - is this a problem countrywide?

Nope, not in the north west, the reports im hearing is generally we have too much power coming from the windmills and being derated because the link from west > east isnt good enough!

MJohnston

Figured I’d continue this conversation from another thread here:

garo wrote: »

I don't understand. Why should we not planning where we put DC chargers?Also, charging an EV using renewable electricity is about as sustainable as we can get.

Look I am all in favour of WFH. Have been doing it since March. But you have to accept if someone is travelling during the pandemic for work, their job pretty much requires travel.

I think you misunderstood what I said garo - I’m not saying don’t plan where to put DC chargers, I’m saying don’t plan it around car usage patterns that will be unlikely to return even post-pandemic.

garo

Ok I definitely misunderstood then. Thanks for clarifying.

Thierry12

liamog wrote: »

Yeah, most of the Chinese manufacturers are working on cell to pack technologies. BYD have their blade cells where one cell is the full width of the car.

Yeah that blade battery looks class

140wh/kg and €80 per kw/h supposedly

50kWh pack costing €4,000 or €2,000 more for a 75kWh pack, autogiants can't blame battery costs anymore, 535kg for a 75kWh blade pack is some weight though.

Be interesting where it ends up with CTP and LFP

VW have part ownership of Svolt and Chinese Guoxuan who specialise in lfp cells and ctp is what the MEB platform is designed for

Korean's giants Hyundai/Kia loyality to home nation company's LG,Samsung, SK who have invested big time in NMC will hurt them, they could have back the wrong horse in NMC, batteries with Cobalt won't be the future and i'd say Nickel too

Then you have Tesla on NCA and GM looking at NMCA

Fine for now use those higher density chemistries, but if we have a race to the bottom and massive consumer demand the fancy cobalt batteries will be dropped imo

MG have started this in the UK, don't know what cells they use, read CATL

52kWh, 350km WLTP, 0-60 7secc, Estate car for £25,000

Looks really well imo

https://www.chorleygroup.co.uk/mg/new-cars/mg5-ev/

the_amazing_raisin

Thierry12 wrote: »

Yeah that blade battery looks class

140wh/kg and €80 per kw/h supposedly

50kWh pack costing €4,000 or €2,000 more for a 75kWh pack, autogiants can't blame battery costs anymore, 535kg for a 75kWh blade pack is some weight though.

Be interesting where it ends up with CTP and LFP

VW have part ownership of Svolt and Chinese Guoxuan who specialise in lfp cells and ctp is what the MEB platform is designed for

Korean's giants Hyundai/Kia loyality to home nation company's LG,Samsung, SK who have invested big time in NMC will hurt them, they could have back the wrong horse in NMC, batteries with Cobalt won't be the future and i'd say Nickel too

Then you have Tesla on NCA and GM looking at NMCA

Fine for now use those higher density chemistries, but if we have a race to the bottom and massive consumer demand the fancy cobalt batteries will be dropped imo

MG have started this in the UK, don't know what cells they use, read CATL

52kWh, 350km WLTP, 0-60 7secc, Estate car for £25,000

Looks really well imo

https://www.chorleygroup.co.uk/mg/new-cars/mg5-ev/

I think it's really interesting how much of a factor packaging is to batteries

I recently watched a video of a cell swap in a 24kWh Nissan Leaf for a 62kWh pack. They basically took the old cells out and rebuilt the pack with new cells.

Granted the cells had higher energy density, but they were able to pack a lot more in by not using the metal module cases that nissan used and with some better design.

Just shows what some different design choices can get you

liamog

Hyundai and Kia have announced they are working with Digital Charging Solutions GmbH to provide their charging solution.
It's the same company that work with BMW and Mini for their charging system.
Not currently available in the UK or Ireland by the looks of it.

https://chargemyhyundai.com/web/hyundai-global
https://kiacharge.com/web/kia-global

cannco253

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1007/1169939-environment-climate/

But Frank Kelly says increasing VRT now is moving too fast, adding: "It is going to take another decade or so for us to have a full choice and range of electric cars.

"The Climate Action Plan aims to have 84,000 on the road by 2026, we are way behind we need to keep realistic about where we are going with electric cars".

Kramer

cannco253 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1007/1169939-environment-climate/
"The Climate Action Plan aims to have 84,000 on the road by 2026.

The 2008 "plan", which the then green government espoused, aimed to have 250,000 electric cars on the road by 2020 :rolleyes:.

84k would be more achievable by 2026, but worse than useless from an environmental/emissions perspective.

No doubt they'll class 48v "mild hybrids" as electric too .

the_amazing_raisin

cannco253 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1007/1169939-environment-climate/

But Frank Kelly says increasing VRT now is moving too fast, adding: "It is going to take another decade or so for us to have a full choice and range of electric cars.

"The Climate Action Plan aims to have 84,000 on the road by 2026, we are way behind we need to keep realistic about where we are going with electric cars".

Read that, utter garbage as usual. Car dealerships trying to protect their profit margins.

At least they had an ID.3 in the picture

AndyBoBandy

Some absolute gems in that article.

The motor industry here is desperate to eek out every last petrol/diesel sale they can before the inevitable happens...

The car industry is warning any such move would cripple the sector and cost thousands of jobs.

Frank Kelly dealer principal at Sheehy Motors in Naas, Co Kildare, says a reduction rather than an increase in VRT is needed.

"We need to encourage people into cleaner cars, the average car today is 28% cleaner than three to four year old cars."

Emma Mitchell of the Society of the Irish Motor Industry (SIMI) says that the last big VRT change in 2008 coincided with the recession and caused widespread loss of jobs and the closure of many dealerships.

She said: "The industry has had falling car sales this year, we are dealing with Brexit, with Covid, given all of that we do not think a new model of VRT should be introduced.

"We could see car sales fall even more dramatically, we are currently at recession levels, we expect to finish this year at about 840,000 new car registrations, which is below what is needed, we are trying to hold on to jobs as it is and we would be really fearful."

As a country do we really need to be putting 840,000+ new cars on the road each and every year????

How many drivers do we have in Ireland out of a population of 5m? surely only about 2m of us actually drive??

garo

There might be an extra zero in there. Last year there were 117k cars and 25k vans registered.

the_amazing_raisin

I quite enjoyed the comment about how a bunch of car dealerships will close. Personally I'm looking forward to the day when we can just buy a car online like what Tesla does