Random EV thoughts.....

AndyBoBandy

Black_Knight wrote: »

Interesting point about the isolator switch and thieves though.

An Isolator switch or the lack of one will probably not stop someone intent on stealing a charge unit. If they really want it, a good insulated snips will be a fast and effective 'isolator switch' - they'd want to have the unit already off the wall and ready to run with, as snipping the supply to it could trip the house and set off the house alarm...

Also a lot quicker that opening the unit and disconnecting it wire by wire....

Black_Knight

fanzhiyidan wrote: »

Hi all,

my wife is being offered a company car through work and is considering an electric.
Few questions that maybe you have come across before:

Benefit-In-Kind: exemptions are is due to expire in December 2021, does this mean that BIK will apply to all electric cars from that date or would electric cars that are purchased before December 2021 still be eligible after that but cars purchased after this date would have to start paying BIK?
[LIST=2]
[/LIST] Has anyone done some comparisons on whether it is financially better to buy a diesel/petrol/hybrid or an electric....similar model car.
[LIST=3]
[/LIST] does anyone know when the Skoda Enyaq or the Volkswagen ID4 are available in Ireland and what the RRP is going to be.

Thanks all.

EVs are about 1/5 the price to run in terms of fuel compared to an internal combustion engine.
Tax, services, wear and tear are somewhat cheaper too.
Up front costs are more, but mostly the cost of an EV over a few years is cheaper than ICE.

Id4 is due out in spring I believe, but only 1 model (well spec'd) costing 44k I think. That's after all the grants to Joe soap. Company car might have it more expensive I think?
Enyaq has been very quiet of late, no idea when it's out in Ireland, but price should be cheaper than the id4.

KCross

fanzhiyidan wrote: »

Benefit-In-Kind: exemptions are is due to expire in December 2021, does this mean that BIK will apply to all electric cars from that date or would electric cars that are purchased before December 2021 still be eligible after that but cars purchased after this date would have to start paying BIK?

I believe its this ^
Although I thought it was Dec 2022, not 2021?

They have been extending this benefit by one year each year during the budget to give companies certainty over what is typically a 3yr decision.

I dont think it was mentioned in this years budget so I dont know if they extended it or not. We need to see the finished Finance Bill.

You definitely should talk to your (or companies) accountant as it would be a nasty suprise in Jan 2023 to find you are liable for full BIK.

markpb

Laviski wrote: »

Personally i haven't yet but I won't be if I'm forced to have an isolator, would suffice with a outdoor socket and granny charge.

I'm having problems with my Zappi so it's only charging at 28A instead of 32A and if I have two long trips back to back, there isn't time to fully charge overnight. The thoughts of charging at 2kW would kill me. Why the hate for isolators other than asthetics?

KCross

markpb wrote: »

Why the hate for isolators other than asthetics?

That mainly.

If the charge point is in a prominent position at the front of your house, a big yellow and red button is not great is it.

Some charge points go to some lengths to try to blend into and be inobtrusive. The commercial looking isolators switches can be an eyesore.

Casati

Black_Knight wrote: »

EVs are about 1/5 the price to run in terms of fuel compared to an internal combustion engine.
Tax, services, wear and tear are somewhat cheaper too.
Up front costs are more, but mostly the cost of an EV over a few years is cheaper than ICE.

Id4 is due out in spring I believe, but only 1 model (well spec'd) costing 44k I think. That's after all the grants to Joe soap. Company car might have it more expensive I think?
Enyaq has been very quiet of late, no idea when it's out in Ireland, but price should be cheaper than the id4.

EV company car will see zero BIK for the next year. I've heard from a large fleet manager that they believe BIK will be reinstated after that but will be at a much lower level versus petrol or diesel- but this was his view and not guaranteed. He did however correctly predict the flat rating of low rate VRT for EV's and PHEV's so he might know what he's talking about.

One negative is that your OH will end up using her own electricity to fuel the car some of the time, where as typically she would get a fuel card if she went with a diesel. If she was paying full rate BIK in 2022 and also charging it occasionally at home that would be a real pain.

Leasing costs have tended to be very high for EV's and this might be a big factor for her company - e.g when I looked earlier this year Tesla 3 lease cost was almost 1k per month where as the dearer 520d was less than 800 per month. The likes of the ID4 might be much lower - maybe others would have info on current leasing costs

liamog

KCross wrote: »

He is referring to the charge point rather than the cable.

A charge point worth €800 that can be electrically isolated right next to it and unhooked in minutes with a basic screwdriver is an easy win for a scumbag.

The same point holds, where's the market for second hand charge points that have to be installed by a RECI going to come from?

markpb wrote: »

Why the hate for isolators other than asthetics?

My hate for isolators is regulation for a problem that doesn't exist, especially if it can lead to casual vandalism, i.e. lads just switching the isolator to stop your car charging.

AndyBoBandy

liamog wrote: »

The same point holds, where's the marker for second hand charge points that have to be installed by a RECI going to come from?

It only has to be installed by a RECI if you want to claim the grant..

If however it's bought from Mickaa for €100, and installed by Anto (who was a sparks years ago) as a nixer for another €100 I dont think too many folk would be arsed about a RECI cert...

It'll probably take another 10 years or so for the 2nd hand market to have enough EV's going through for an enterprise like above to take hold.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

The same point holds, where's the market for second hand charge points that have to be installed by a RECI going to come from?

Its very different. As you said before, every car comes with a cable so a very small market there.

Complete opposite for charge points.

EV's dont typically come with a charge point so it is a commodity that has value as you have to pay for it as a relatively expensive extra.

And there have been people who bought and sold second hand charge points on this forum already so it will only become more common as we get into the mass adoption phase and people dont want/cant-afford to spend €1k on getting a charge point in.... €150 for a stolen second hand Zappi and €100 to your mate to wire it up and your up and running! You think thats not a scumbags market?!

innrain

My grandfather use to say "Locks are for honest people."
I presume that as the chargers become more popular their price will drop and they will not be attractive(for the dumb ones) and the fancier ones will have a calling home feature that will make them unusable for 3rd parties. Something like the laptops/phones now. 15 years ago they were targets now they are not even touched during a break-in.

innrain

innrain wrote: »

........... Something like the laptops/phones now. 15 years ago they were targets now they are not even touched during a break-in.

Approx 130 phones/week are stolen in Ireland.

KCross

innrain wrote: »

My grandfather use to say "Locks are for honest people."

He's not wrong there.

innrain wrote: »

I presume that as the chargers become more popular their price will drop...

The opposite has happened so far.

innrain wrote: »

and they will not be attractive(for the dumb ones) and the fancier ones will have a calling home feature that will make them unusable for 3rd parties.

Maybe in time. Usually that stuff can be hacked/disabled too though. The bad guys are usually a step ahead.

the_amazing_raisin

Augeo wrote: »

Approx 130 phones/week are stolen in Ireland.

Yeah mostly they've become so cheap and easily replaceable that people stopped caring when they get stolen.


It's more about the hassle factor than financial impact

cruisey1987

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah mostly they've become so cheap and easily replaceable that people stopped caring when they get stolen.


It's more about the hassle factor than financial impact

Most phones are €500 to €1000 ............... the cheap yokes aren't being stolen.

Lumen

FSD. It almost works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4fdUx6d4QM

the_amazing_raisin

Lumen wrote: »

FSD. It almost works!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4fdUx6d4QM

Brilliant!!! :D:D

Black_Knight

From the ievoa virtual meeting:

Eamonn stack from range therapy:
All related to the leaf.
- Adding 120km range to a leaf for about €7k. Adding an additional battery into the boot in a fireproof box.
Takes a lot from gen 1 boots, but only 18cm from the boot of gen 2 boots.

- If you provided the battery pack, a swap would be 1200-2500 depending on battery size.
Taking from muxan and bringing it to Ireland.

- CCS conversion and 3 phase conversion available, but expensive.
CCS conversion (in a Zoe for example) could be 1-2k.

On the face of it, I find it hard to see people willing to put 6-7k into a 6-8 year old car. Ok you get a few k for your own battery pack, but it's a lot of money and I'd wonder is that 6-7k better served in a new car?

Laviski

Black_Knight wrote: »

On the face of it, I find it hard to see people willing to put 6-7k into a 6-8 year old car. Ok you get a few k for your own battery pack, but it's a lot of money and I'd wonder is that 6-7k better served in a new car?

Depends on personal circumstances...

For those that love bling and shiny new things the answer would be no. Would also be dependent if they could finance a new car as well.

For others who have had the cars for years and looked after it, I would say doing this is a real possibility. If there is nothing wrong with the car and served you well, why would you get rid of it when there were options on the table to restore the range and even expanding it further of when you purchased it.

Perhaps getting a new car is out of reach so why take the risk in second hand as the devil you know is better than the devil you don't. After all some some people do get stung badly going secondhand despite their best efforts.

Maybe it would be done and demoted as the second car...


Lots of variables but that's because real options are coming now as electric cars now reaching the decade mark. Nothing wrong if they go another decade so long as they are maintained and roadworthy.

unkel

Very poor investment in your car, most of it will instantly lose its value. If you are emotionally attached to your car or do it for environmental reasons it might be a good choice to keep it going longer. Not a rational financial choice, unless you get it done significantly cheaper than that, or DIY.

Black_Knight

unkel wrote: »

Very poor investment in your car, most of it will instantly lose its value. If you are emotionally attached to your car or do it for environmental reasons it might be a good choice to keep it going longer. Not a rational financial choice, unless you get it done significantly cheaper than that, or DIY.

Pretty much my thinking. The 7k is better served elsewhere. Assuming a leaf worth 5k (cheap at the moment) that's 13k you have for an upgrade. What sort of range car does 13k get you?
That 13k car would be worth 13k to another buyer instantly, but the 13k of parts in your upgraded leaf wouldn't. .

Laviski

Those in that mindset would have sold long before they would need to consider the upgrade as a choice. So yes it would be complete madness to do this with a view of selling on in the short to medium term.

With the point I was making, those doing this would already resigned to real possibility that they won't be getting rid of the car. They were happy with how the car has performed and the condition it is in (edit: the assumption is they have had this car from new or had it for years so no buying for 5k and then upgrading). This regardless of sentimental or environment concerns come into it.

getting another second hand of dealing with dodgy traders and ensurihg you leave no stone unturned is tiresome in the event they are not in a position not buy buy new or near new.

Black_Knight

Laviski wrote: »

Those in that mindset would have sold long before they would need to consider the upgrade as a choice. So yes it would be complete madness to do this with a view of selling on in the short to medium term.

With the point I was making, those doing this would already resigned to real possibility that they won't be getting rid of the car. They were happy with how the car has performed and the condition it is in (edit: the assumption is they have had this car from new or had it for years so no buying for 5k and then upgrading). This regardless of sentimental or environment concerns come into it.

getting another second hand of dealing with dodgy traders and ensurihg you leave no stone unturned is tiresome in the event they are not in a position not buy buy new or near new.

Would you buy a 5k leaf and put a 7k upgrade into it (assuming you knew the leaf was perfectly sound), or buy a 13k leaf?

Laviski

No,
But the leaf I have today which I still may have in 9 years, depending on personal and financial circumstances I would consider an upgrade as an option with the understanding I most likely won't sell it on. If I could buy new again of course I would but I can't see the future so thinking of a scenario where buying new (or near new) is not possible. Another real reality is that this car would become the second car, so extending may or may not be needed but at least it is now becoming an option.

Hence I'm saying those that bought an electric car that lets say bought secondhand 3/4 years old (or newer) and held onto it for a further 5 years. Who are perfectly happy with it and they would know if that car is a problem or not.
If the car was looked after I believe spending on the upgrade is a real option rather than using that same money (7/8k) to buy a slightly newer car with a slightly bit more range - in that scenario they would back to the same choice in less than 4 years again.
Whereas an upgrade would be adding a lot more range than when you first bought it, this potentially extend the life of the car for a further 8-10years. You won't be doing this upgrade if you intend of getting rid of it as you may not re coup the investment. I would be keeping an interest in this of how it all works out especially with the insurance as this is all new scenarios and its not with out it's risks. After all someone could crash into you of which you are not at fault however the car is a write off, what would the insurance pay out..?

Water John

It's not like you're putting in a souped up engine, just an extra petrol tank.

Black_Knight

Laviski wrote: »

No,
But the leaf I have today which I still may have in 9 years, depending on personal and financial circumstances I would consider an upgrade as an option with the understanding I most likely won't sell it on. If I could buy new again of course I would but I can't see the future so thinking of a scenario where buying new (or near new) is not possible. Another real reality is that this car would become the second car, so extending may or may not be needed but at least it is now becoming an option.

Hence I'm saying those that bought an electric car that lets say bought secondhand 3/4 years old (or newer) and held onto it for a further 5 years. Who are perfectly happy with it and they would know if that car is a problem or not.
If the car was looked after I believe spending on the upgrade is a real option rather than using that same money (7/8k) to buy a slightly newer car with a slightly bit more range - in that scenario they would back to the same choice in less than 4 years again.
Whereas an upgrade would be adding a lot more range than when you first bought it, this potentially extend the life of the car for a further 8-10years. You won't be doing this upgrade if you intend of getting rid of it as you may not re coup the investment. I would be keeping an interest in this of how it all works out especially with the insurance as this is all new scenarios and its not with out it's risks. After all someone could crash into you of which you are not at fault however the car is a write off, what would the insurance pay out..?

He says the extra battery isn't a modification in Irish law, but you'd be a fool to think insurance companies wouldn't try nail you for it. Certainly they won't consider it's extra value when paying out.

Laviski

Hence the upgrade is still not without it's risks..... Insurance companies will be brought into new Territory whether they can adapt to it or not. I'm sure there will be challenges brought against them, some people will get screwed over as such is the nature of dealing with insurance companies. But that is after all if only you are in that unlucky situation, it won't happen to the majority.

Ultimately you should only insure the value of your vehicle to the value the insurance companies will pay out. That goes for all be it electric nor not. So if anyone does this upgrade, they should talk to their insurance companies to see if they recognize the changes made and have it all in writing.

DrPhilG

Same fella tried to convince me that he's not a commercial enterprise, only striving to accelerate the transition to an environmentally friendly world...

At €7k a pop.

Black_Knight

DrPhilG wrote: »

Same fella tried to convince me that he's not a commercial enterprise, only striving to accelerate the transition to an environmentally friendly world...

At €7k a pop.

It's a tough market to be in. Car batteries are getting 6-8 years of warranty, so really it's only after then that you'd consider doing it, at which point they'll have lost most their value and you're asking owners up sink 6-7k into the car. Not even a new battery, I think that 6-7k is to add to your existing battery.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Same fella tried to convince me that he's not a commercial enterprise, only striving to accelerate the transition to an environmentally friendly world...

Aye. His name is Musk.

liamog

Mod Note: Moved tom1ie discussion to own thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058132465