Random EV thoughts.....

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

There's no argument. LFP is inferior to LI-Ion in every way

That's not a fact. That's your opinion. One I do not agree with. LiFePo4 is cheaper, more reliable and stable, far safer and does not use cobalt. All these are facts. And all are major benefits in my book.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

That's not a fact. That's your opinion. One I do not agree with. LiFePo4 is cheaper, more reliable and stable, far safer and does not use cobalt. All these are facts. And all are major benefits in my book.

I'll give you cheaper for sure. More reliable and stable are yet to be seen - early reports are not positive in cold weather - and I couldnt care less about cobalt as I'm not an ecomentalist.


Cheaper and "greener" seem to be the argument for the new chemistry, whereas stability, usability, and stable performance seem to be in favor of li-ion.

timsey tiger

ELM327 wrote: »

I couldnt care less about cobalt as I'm not an ecomentalist.

You are in effect saying that you couldn't care less about what is going on in the DRC. Classy.

ELM327

timsey tiger wrote: »

You are in effect saying that you couldn't care less about what is going on in the DRC. Classy.

I don't care.
Do you have a phone? A laptop? A battery powered cordless tool?
Then you can't care either.

the_amazing_raisin

Wow this took a left turn, I expected an argument about Tesla quality control and Elon being a charlatan, but no we've gone to the cobalt and kids in the Congo pretty quickly

I wonder how soon it'll be until someone breaks Godwin's law

liamog

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't care.
Do you have a phone? A laptop? A battery powered cordless tool?
Then you can't care either.

Don't forget about the Cobalt used in the desulphurisation process of oil.

LFP is a different chemistry, there are pro's and con's of each.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

I don't care.
Do you have a phone? A laptop? A battery powered cordless tool?
Then you can't care either.

There's a difference between preferring that the situation change vs preferring it continue because you want a wee bit more money in your own pocket or fewer minutes spent at a charging station. You're at least honest, I suppose.

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

There's a difference between preferring that the situation change vs preferring it continue because you want a wee bit more money in your own pocket or fewer minutes spent at a charging station. You're at least honest, I suppose.

I would wager there is many exponents more of cobalt used for fossil fuel and for consumer electronics than the relatively microscopic (not literal) amount used in an EV battery.


PS: I don't actively want the DRC thing to continue but I am agnostic towards it. I want the better product as a consumer.



Do you shop in penneys/primark? Order items on Wish or similar? Drink coffee? Eat chocolate? Lots of child/slave/underpaid labor out there. It's interesting to choose EV batteries to get woke over, where there are long standing unethical items that you consume daily.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

I would wager there is many exponents more of cobalt used for fossil fuel and for consumer electronics than the relatively microscopic (not literal) amount used in an EV battery.

PS: I don't actively want the DRC thing to continue but I am agnostic towards it. I want the better product as a consumer.

Do you shop in penneys/primark? Order items on Wish or similar? Drink coffee? Eat chocolate? Lots of child/slave/underpaid labor out there. It's interesting to choose EV batteries to get woke over, where there are long standing unethical items that you consume daily.

Yeah, I avoid Penneys because it's unethical (same for most fast fashion) although you have to balance that with supporting local jobs. I would never go near Wish and try to avoid Amazon where possible. Coffee only from direct trade roasters (3FE is an easy one) and I get chocolate from a direct trade sourcer (called Neary Nógs). I avoid non-sustainable palm oil. My company pays 200% carbon credits for any business travel we do. I sponsor trees ffs. All that boring 'ecomentalist' stuff, I love it!

At the same time, I know full well there are plenty of items and consumables in my life that are non-ethical, and plenty of things where it's utterly impossible to avoid unethical products. And I know that our society has made ethical purchasing a much more expensive endeavour. Which imo means there's little excuse for those of us who can afford it to do better.

If I had to charge my car a bit slower for a more ethically, sustainably manufactured battery, I absolutely would do that. It'll be a big factor when I switch cars next time in a few years just as it was last time — a serious consideration for me when getting my BMW i3 was that they use a lot of sustainable materials in construction.

You can do what you like, of course, certain people always have, and they always will.

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, I avoid Penneys because it's unethical (same for most fast fashion) although you have to balance that with supporting local jobs. I would never go near Wish and try to avoid Amazon where possible. Coffee only from direct trade roasters (3FE is an easy one) and I get chocolate from a direct trade sourcer (called Neary Nógs). I avoid non-sustainable palm oil. My company pays 200% carbon credits for any business travel we do. I sponsor trees ffs. All that boring 'ecomentalist' stuff, I love it!

At the same time, I know full well there are plenty of items and consumables in my life that are non-ethical, and plenty of things where it's utterly impossible to avoid unethical products. And I know that our society has made ethical purchasing a much more expensive endeavour. Which imo means there's little excuse for those of us who can afford it to do better.

If I had to charge my car a bit slower for a more ethically, sustainably manufactured battery, I absolutely would do that. It'll be a big factor when I switch cars next time in a few years just as it was last time — a serious consideration for me when getting my BMW i3 was that they use a lot of sustainable materials in construction.

You can do what you like, of course, certain people always have, and they always will.

Taking the above at face value which I have no reason not to, you must accept that you are the 1 in the 1:100000 ratio.
The vast majority of people don't care*, which is why these practices continue.

* or at least don't care enough that it affects their purchasing habits.

I'm actually a committee member of the sustainability committee at my place of work (large MNC) and was involved with a number of "green" initiatives, from EV charging to 100% renewable energy to compostable coffee cups. It's not as if I don't care, I'm actually interested and inspired by sustainability.

The cobalt thing in congo is an ethical issue, not a green or environmental one.

MJohnston

ELM327 wrote: »

Taking the above at face value which I have no reason not to, you must accept that you are the 1 in the 1:100000 ratio.


The vast majority of people don't care*, which is why these practices continue.


* or at least don't care enough that it affects their purchasing habits.

Yeah but as I said, I think there's little excuse for those of us who can afford it to do better and purchase ethically where possible.

In this particular EV battery case, it's even easier than that! You just have to accept a small time trade-off.

ELM327

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah but as I said, I think there's little excuse for those of us who can afford it to do better and purchase ethically where possible.

In this particular EV battery case, it's even easier than that! You just have to accept a small time trade-off.

And I'm not interested in that.


The only way to drive user behavior change en masse is to make the alternative better.

MJohnston

As I also said: You can do what you like, of course, certain people always have, and they always will.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah but as I said, I think there's little excuse for those of us who can afford it to do better and purchase ethically where possible.

In this particular EV battery case, it's even easier than that! You just have to accept a small time trade-off.

It's a difficult question, based on info in Tesla's published Impact assessments, they go to great lengths to ethically source the Cobalt used in their batteries. There is an argument that it's ethically questionable to deny employment from Responsible Mineral extractors, especially in high risk areas.

Reduction in Cobalt in Lithium Ion batteries is a cost measure, not an ethical one.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

It's a difficult question, based on info in Tesla's published Impact assessments, they go to great lengths to ethically source the Cobalt used in their batteries. There is an argument that it's ethically questionable to deny employment from Responsible Mineral extractors, especially in high risk areas.

Reduction in Cobalt in Lithium Ion batteries is a cost measure, not an ethical one.

Well cost measures and ethical measures aren't always mutually exclusive!

It's definitely complex — I think at this point it's undeniably a lot more ethical to drive an EV than ICE.

But EV adoption on the cusp of exploding, now is also the time to ensure the technology as a whole is as ethical and sustainable as possible.

liamog

MJohnston wrote: »

But EV adoption on the cusp of exploding, now is also the time to ensure the technology as a whole is as ethical and sustainable as possible.

That's why boiling it down to cobalt bad/good doesn't work. It's akin to saying people should stop using any cotton products because some cotton is sourced from Xinjiang and may be harvested using forced Uighur labour.

MJohnston

liamog wrote: »

That's why boiling it down to cobalt bad/good doesn't work. It's akin to saying people should stop using any cotton products because some cotton is sourced from Xinjiang and may be harvested using forced Uighur labour.

Fair enough! I was reacting more to the "I couldnt care less about cobalt as I'm not an ecomentalist" sentiment.

garo

Pretty sure that Cobalt extraction has a bigger environmental cost than Iron and Phosphate.


The dicussion above raises a good point. Obviously it is best to get as many people to adopt EVs as fast as possible using batteries made in the most sustainable way possible. But if there is a tradeoff between a more sustainable method and faster adoption due to better product characteristics the answer is not easy IMO. We here are probably in the 1% of population that is even aware of these things. My hypothesis is that as people are made more aware of this they take more ethical/environmental decisions. Not everyone, but many will.

Kramer

MJohnston wrote: »

I think at this point it's undeniably a lot more ethical to drive an EV than ICE.

That's not clear either in my opinion. A very wealthy retiree, purchasing a 100kWh Porsche Taycan or Model S Raven, because they can, but don't need (do a few hundred kilometres a month for example), wouldn't necessarily be more ethical or green, than seeing out their days in their 90's, V8, 7 series.

It's nuanced :pac:.

garo

I assume MJohnston was talking about like for like so buying a Taycan vs buying a 7 series. These days people retire at 65 or 66 or 67. So you still have 20 years of driving left. That 7 series won't see you out.

Kramer

garo wrote: »

These days people retire at 65 or 66 or 67. So you still have 20 years of driving left. That 7 series won't see you out.

20 years................that's probably just 3 or 4 battery replacements in an 85kWh Model S :pac:.
I bet 30+ year old 7 series will hold up better than 30+ year old Teslas (there won't be any ).

Water John

Excellent programme last night 'Ten Things To Know About Hydrogen' RTE 1.
One use was using the hydrogen fuel cell to produce electricity for the EV.

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

20 years................that's probably just 3 or 4 battery replacements in an 85kWh Model S :pac:.
I bet 30+ year old 7 series will hold up better than 30+ year old Teslas (there won't be any ).

True, no one is going to want to replace the batteries in a 15 year car that is worth less than the cost of battery replacement.
Unless there are incentives to keep older vehicles serviceable (on environmental grounds) as opposed to disincentives as there are now, like more expensive insurance and cheap finance on newer models.

the_amazing_raisin

Water John wrote: »

Excellent programme last night 'Ten Things To Know About Hydrogen' RTE 1.
One use was using the hydrogen fuel cell to produce electricity for the EV.

That's basically how a hydrogen car works, the fuel cell produces a steady flow of electricity, some of which is used to charge a small battery which is used for bursts of acceleration.

I think it's something to do with the fuel cell having a fairly limited power output and needing some help to get the car up to speed

the_amazing_raisin

Kramer wrote: »

20 years................that's probably just 3 or 4 battery replacements in an 85kWh Model S :pac:.
I bet 30+ year old 7 series will hold up better than 30+ year old Teslas (there won't be any ).

Ah there'll always be a few classic cars around.

And like all good classics, they'll have some trouble starting

the_amazing_raisin

[Deleted User] wrote: »

True, no one is going to want to replace the batteries in a 15 year car that is worth less than the cost of battery replacement.
Unless there are incentives to keep older vehicles serviceable (on environmental grounds) as opposed to disincentives as there are now, like more expensive insurance and cheap finance on newer models.

Ah it depends on how cheap the batteries are at that point. There might be plenty of second hand reconditioned packs floating around in 30 years time.

garo

Kramer wrote: »

20 years................that's probably just 3 or 4 battery replacements in an 85kWh Model S :pac:.
I bet 30+ year old 7 series will hold up better than 30+ year old Teslas (there won't be any ).

Bwa ha ha ha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcDyiC5kbAo


One more for fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zdVzf0rl9k

ELM327

cruisey1987 wrote: »

That's basically how a hydrogen car works, the fuel cell produces a steady flow of electricity, some of which is used to charge a small battery which is used for bursts of acceleration.

I think it's something to do with the fuel cell having a fairly limited power output and needing some help to get the car up to speed

Yup, it magically takes 3kWh of energy and gives you 1kWh!
It's a fossil fueled car (albeit with no local emissions) and it is as efficient as a middle of the road fossil car. I think I saw the mirai got mid 50's mpge. Compared to the likes of even an Ioniq non plugin HEV that's pretty poor.

unkel

The only application for hydrogen is if you can make it practically for free with overproduction of renewable electricity that really, really can not go anywhere else
- used directly, stored in EVs, or in other home and grid attached batteries, in pumped hydro, stored heat or stored hot water, even almost given away for free to other countries via interconnectors

In that case the lamentable efficiency of the process of making hydrogen is not really relevant, as the source is pretty much free, abundant and of course renewable

kanuseeme

ELM327 wrote: »

Yup, it magically takes 3kWh of energy and gives you 1kWh!
It's a fossil fueled car (albeit with no local emissions) and it is as efficient as a middle of the road fossil car. I think I saw the mirai got mid 50's mpge. Compared to the likes of even an Ioniq non plugin HEV that's pretty poor.

LOL thats crap, is the 3kWh including losses making the H2 from water or methane? or just 3 kWh worth of H2 makes only 1kWh ? LOL thats not going to come to market unless then can get it for nothing.

Fuel cells can run on methane as well, from what I remember, something like an 600 c operating temp and 8 year life span. :D:D