Random EV thoughts.....

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

The only application for hydrogen is if you can make it practically for free with overproduction of renewable electricity that really, really can not go anywhere else
- used directly, stored in EVs, or in other home and grid attached batteries, in pumped hydro, stored heat or stored hot water, even almost given away for free to other countries via interconnectors

In that case the lamentable efficiency of the process of making hydrogen is not really relevant, as the source is pretty much free, abundant and of course renewable

Agree. If you have excess solar you could store it with hydrogen. But it would only make sense at a large level - not as a microgenerator as a storage battery is cheaper, safer and more efficient. If you're generating 4kWh excess solar in a day for example, you don't want to lose 2.5kWh of it to storage losses in H2!

kanuseeme wrote: »

LOL thats crap, is the 3kWh including losses making the H2 from water or methane? or just 3 kWh worth of H2 makes only 1kWh ? LOL thats not going to come to market unless then can get it for nothing.

Fuel cells can run on methane as well, from what I remember, something like an 600 c operating temp and 8 year life span. :D:D

It's taking 3kWh from the grid. If you put that 3kWh into an EV you get ~2.5-2.8kWh (depending on losses).


If you put that same 3kWh into making hydrogen you have losses at every stage.



It's so crap.It needs to get much more efficient, easier to store, and build a distribution network.


Electric cars already have a network to plug in, literally anywhere.

the_amazing_raisin

Yeah the market for hydrogen seems to have given up almost everywhere except Japan, who are clinging onto it for as long as possible.

They're now talking about hydrogen powered ships and aircraft, since the energy density of batteries isn't there yet, and I guess it could make sense there since you already have specialised fuel storage and distribution systems on site, not much work to add more although I can't imagine there'll be much scope for re-use of the old equipment

It's worth noting that they were talking about hydrogen powered trucks a while back, and yet we're seeing more electric trucks making it to market now

So while hydrogen seems a good idea on paper, it fails somewhat when you get into the small details

ELM327

It works for governments and for "big oil", as it is easy to tax, and it could use the existing refuelling network locations and people cant fill up at home.

These are the only advantages I can see.

garo

Hydrogen is only good for very specific applications. Things like high temperature furnaces where electricity cannot generate a high enough temperature. Or possibly ships and aeroplanes where batteries would be much heavier than the fuel cell + fuel. Though honestly ships could be plastered with PV panels and recharge their batteries that way.

ELM327

I don't think we'll ever get to mass adoption of H2, even in buses/trucks etc.
Fossil fuel will remain for the next few decades. Electrification of the passenger car will leave more fuel for other uses. Planes, marine shipping, long distance trucking will need diesel for years and years.

the_amazing_raisin

garo wrote: »

Hydrogen is only good for very specific applications. Things like high temperature furnaces where electricity cannot generate a high enough temperature. Or possibly ships and aeroplanes where batteries would be much heavier than the fuel cell + fuel. Though honestly ships could be plastered with PV panels and recharge their batteries that way.

I think I did the math a while back and the largest ship covered in PV panels would cover about 25% of the engines available power


Now, who's to say if the ship would need the same amount of power with a more efficient electric drive, but you'll probably still fall short a bit


I still think it's a good idea, but more as a method of improving fuel economy than the main power source


Probably a combination of hydrogen (from renewable sources, and not methane), batteries and solar/wind power would work best for shipping

graememk

There is Telehandlers either on the market or very near right now that are electric powered.

Seen a post about electric tractors somewhere but they are still only the tiny ones, Its a step in the right direction.

Working time will be an issue because when you need it, you need it. usually due to a brief window of good weather.

Our tractors can burn 18-20L / hr when working hard in the summer.

Maybe we'll end up with a 150 -300KW DC charger at most farmyards - We do stop for lunch, Tea, etc... My nearest three phase is about a mile away, or 3 if you follow the actual power line we are on.

Or even some sort of Battery storage in the yard, charge them with A load of solar panels or cheap night electric.

ELM327

graememk wrote: »

There is Telehandlers either on the market or very near right now that are electric powered.

Seen a post about electric tractors somewhere but they are still only the tiny ones, Its a step in the right direction.

Working time will be an issue because when you need it, you need it. usually due to a brief window of good weather.

Our tractors can burn 18-20L / hr when working hard in the summer.

Maybe we'll end up with a 150 -300KW DC charger at most farmyards - We do stop for lunch, Tea, etc... My nearest three phase is about a mile away, or 3 if you follow the actual power line we are on.

Or even some sort of Battery storage in the yard, charge them with A load of solar panels or cheap night electric.

You could have 3 phase 22kW going for 9 hours overnight to store the energy along with daily solar topping it up and connect it to a 150kW charger.

the_amazing_raisin

graememk wrote: »

There is Telehandlers either on the market or very near right now that are electric powered.

Seen a post about electric tractors somewhere but they are still only the tiny ones, Its a step in the right direction.

Working time will be an issue because when you need it, you need it. usually due to a brief window of good weather.

Our tractors can burn 18-20L / hr when working hard in the summer.

Maybe we'll end up with a 150 -300KW DC charger at most farmyards - We do stop for lunch, Tea, etc... My nearest three phase is about a mile away, or 3 if you follow the actual power line we are on.

Or even some sort of Battery storage in the yard, charge them with A load of solar panels or cheap night electric.

Yeah I saw an article ages ago about an electric tractor. Can't remember where I saw it unfortunately so can't post a link



Being a jackeen from Dublin, I've almost no knowledge about tractors, but it seemed like it was a 'normal' size tractor


They claimed it had around 5 hours of working power, which is apparently a typical daily workload.



Seemed a bit low to me, however if you had a decent 3 phase power supply on a farm you could plug in for an hour or so in the middle of the day and probably gain back 50% battery power, which would carry you over another 2.5 hours


Adding in solar panels and battery storage then you could see the initial costs of the tractor paying off pretty quickly. Even quicker if there was an export tariff for sending power to the grid

unkel

graememk wrote: »

Seen a post about electric tractors somewhere but they are still only the tiny ones, Its a step in the right direction.

You're a bit behind

This yoke runs on electricity, generated by itself. It is loaded with stuff at the top of the quarry, regen charges it batteries going down the quarry with a full load, then only uses a part of that to travel back up to the top empty. Never have to charge it. At night it powers the mining village. Saves 50 million liters of diesel per year.

Merrion

A lot of the fuel use of a tractor is "lost" in torque reduction - whereas an electric motor has its highest torque at zero rpm so electric tractors would be very different vehicles.
(Which is good because current tractors are causing terrible soil compaction issues)

graememk

ELM327 wrote: »

You could have 3 phase 22kW going for 9 hours overnight to store the energy along with daily solar topping it up and connect it to a 150kW charger.

If there was 3 phase, well you could have a supply of about 60-80a/phase

thing is, for us, its a really busy week or so, and each side is quiet, usually looking at rain and doing non tractor stuff.

Contractors would have a different issue as they can be out on long days weeks on end. We generally stop before it gets dark, Sure lights are good, but the june days are long.

Also Long days people get tired and make mistakes, which are generally just costly but could end up being much worse. Machines can be fixed/replaced, People cant.

the_amazing_raisin

On the topic of electric tractors, would they stop being tractor shaped (2 big wheels, 2 small ones)

The advantage seems clear with a diesel engine to gain massive amounts of torque.

With electric the advantage isn't so clear, would it make more sense to have something that looks more like an oversized quad bike and engines on each axle?

I imagine there would be a running cost advantage to having smaller tyres, plus a more stable platform would make it safer to operate

the_amazing_raisin

graememk wrote: »

Also Long days people get tired and make mistakes, which are generally just costly but could end up being much worse. Machines can be fixed/replaced, People cant.

Bit of a tangent, but I heard a similar argument regarding electric intercity buses. Someone pointed out they only need around 500km of range because the driver is legally obliged to take a break then anyway


As frustrating as it is, sometimes imposing breaks on people is a good thing, especially when it reduces the risk of accidents with a piece of heavy machinery

graememk

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Being a jackeen from Dublin, I've almost no knowledge about tractors, but it seemed like it was a 'normal' size tractor

They claimed it had around 5 hours of working power, which is apparently a typical daily workload.

Seemed a bit low to me, however if you had a decent 3 phase power supply on a farm you could plug in for an hour or so in the middle of the day and probably gain back 50% battery power, which would carry you over another 2.5 hours

I know the one your on about, its only a lil one! and they chat about automation too,

Its about 5k to retrofit autosteer

5hrs /day on average is grand, Doing the feeding today would take me about 2-3 hrs and then we're onto other jobs. 5 hrs would cover me for 95% of the time

There is days in the summer where we would be cutting and lifting grass, and out working for 10 hours would be fairly normal, and considered short looking at other contractors, We just do our own and a neighbour or 2.

3 phase on farms is still the exception not the rule, most of us dont as we dont use that much power... biggest load we have is my EV!

unkel wrote: »

You're a bit behind

This yoke runs on electricity, generated by itself. It is loaded with stuff at the top of the quarry, regen charges it batteries going down the quarry with a full load, then only uses a part of that to travel back up to the top empty. Never have to charge it. At night it powers the mining village. Saves 50 million liters of diesel per year.

That Machine is a Beast, Thats self charging! Perfect machine for the job.

Merrion wrote: »

A lot of the fuel use of a tractor is "lost" in torque reduction - whereas an electric motor has its highest torque at zero rpm so electric tractors would be very different vehicles.
(Which is good because current tractors are causing terrible soil compaction issues)

gotta get the PTO power from somewhere... But Electric tractors wont sort the Soil Compaction, thats a whole other ball game.

Wide tyres helps.. the ones on our new tanker (low emissions, less loss, More stuff going into the grass) has 800mm wide ones.

But something nobody mentioned yet, is the noise, Sure the cabs have got more sound insulated etc, but not to have a engine roaring at 2000rpm at your feet would be awesome

graememk

cruisey1987 wrote: »

On the topic of electric tractors, would they stop being tractor shaped (2 big wheels, 2 small ones)

The advantage seems clear with a diesel engine to gain massive amounts of torque.

With electric the advantage isn't so clear, would it make more sense to have something that looks more like an oversized quad bike and engines on each axle?

I imagine there would be a running cost advantage to having smaller tyres, plus a more stable platform would make it safer to operate

tyre cost is negligible really, Smaller wheels turn better, bigger wheels have a bigger footprint, Also ground clearance is something you need to think about too, The hitch already catches on the rows of grass!

JCB fastrac has all wheels the same currently but thats more of a truck that was made into a tractor.


Now, then do machines need a pto?, or just have a electric motor mounted to them and a power cable!

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Bit of a tangent, but I heard a similar argument regarding electric intercity buses. Someone pointed out they only need around 500km of range because the driver is legally obliged to take a break then anyway


As frustrating as it is, sometimes imposing breaks on people is a good thing, especially when it reduces the risk of accidents with a piece of heavy machinery

I do see the time when electric tractors become affordable that you might have a portable battery, instead of a fuel bowser for when your working away from the yard, or in someone elses farm, that you can plug into out in the field.

Or I might be retired by then and not have to worry!

innrain

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Yeah I saw an article ages ago about an electric tractor. Can't remember where I saw it unfortunately so can't post a link

Was it the Monarch? Maybe
https://youtu.be/xcpi4vR-_44

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

This yoke runs on electricity, generated by itself...........Saves 50 million liters of diesel per year.

I call BS on that. 50,000,000 litres is what, 100 litres per minute, every minute of every hour, 24 hours per day, 365 days per year :eek:.

Green washing/marketing BS from 2 very non environmentally friendly industries, open cast mining & heavy industry/haulage.

They even had to paint the thing green .

Massey Ferguson 135 for the win!!



:cool:.

Kramer

Electric "JCB"s are entirely doable though, just need a decent 3 phase farm supply as previously said.

Think his one went cheap enough on Done Deal - went to a small farmer in West Clare who wanted something green to open a few dykes .



Details here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brutus

:pac:.

Merrion

graememk wrote: »

gotta get the PTO power from somewhere...

Yup - plugs to electric powered for anciliaries. A lot of US electric trucks (e.g. Bollinger) already doing this.

graememk wrote: »

But Electric tractors wont sort the Soil Compaction, that's a whole other ball game.

Autonomous swarms of small electric tractors would do. A lot of the reason tractors got so big is to maximise the amount each driver can do - remove the driver and you can just go with many rather than bigger.

Plus - of course - farms have huge potential for electricity generation with PV on all the shed roofs and small windmills on field boundaries.

graememk

Merrion wrote: »

Autonomous swarms of small electric tractors would do. A lot of the reason tractors got so big is to maximise the amount each driver can do - remove the driver and you can just go with many rather than bigger.

Plus - of course - farms have huge potential for electricity generation with PV on all the shed roofs and small windmills on field boundaries.

Too many variables to broad strokes this, but I do hope to have options in my working life. We're pre leaf on the agri scale yet, if you compare it to cars, but I'd it will be 2030 before we'll have electric tractors in the 100hp size class (ie a New Holland t5 ) coming on the market, there's some prototypes of fuel cell ones and I think John deere has an Autonomous, TETHERED tractor! the power lead for that is supposed to be chunky AF


I'd say there will be both, big reduced travel (can't remember the proper name) ie the machines always goes on the same track, that's where width will still come into to play and with rtk you can get sub centimeter accuracy now.

My grandfather started with horses to working with computerised tractors with electronic lifts and button gears in his working life.

My father started with tractors without cabs and now in nice, air conditioned cabs surrounded in glass.

I've another 30 yrs ahead of me at least will be interesting to see what happens.

Anywhere we can make more efficient we try and do. Any waste is a loss. And the more we can reduce it the better. From moving from a splash plate for slurry to a dribble bar (never going back to the old way!), Feeding yeast extracts to reduce the farts, less feed that goes into methane production the more goes into the animals.

Already have some PV connected up, will be putting up more in the new year - aiming for about 8kwp I think.

Merrion

Huge potential in static renewable energy use in farming - I don't know if the average farm size here means that the electric tractor "swarm" idea will ever make sense here though... but the Kovaco would be pretty useful round the yard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tATfs1DjTr8

the_amazing_raisin

OT, but looks like the H2 ferry concept is starting to bear fruit:

https://www.electrive.com/2020/12/08/european-consortium-to-build-23-mw-hydrogen-ferry/

Not launching until 2027, but that seems quick enough in shipbuilding terms

Thankfully the hydrogen will be generated by electrolysis from excess wind power, and not from methane

For comparison:

H2 Ferry: 1800 passengers, 380 cars
WB Yeats: 1885 passengers/crew, 1216 cars
Ulysses: 1936 passenger, 1342 cars

So it's somewhat smaller than the current crop of ferries, but if the concept proves itself then we might be seeing some H2 powered ferries on the Irish Sea within the decade

ELM327

I still think H2 is a wasteful use of energy as it's less efficient than an efficient fossil fuel engine. However if it's a way to use excess energy that would otherwise be switched off then that's of course good.

Battery storage would be possible too though, and such ferries already exist in Norway.

the_amazing_raisin

ELM327 wrote: »

I still think H2 is a wasteful use of energy as it's less efficient than an efficient fossil fuel engine. However if it's a way to use excess energy that would otherwise be switched off then that's of course good.

Battery storage would be possible too though, and such ferries already exist in Norway.

If I'm reading it correctly, the hydrogen will be generated in the port, so it should be more efficient than a hydrogen car because there's very little transport losses


If I remember correctly, the energy density of batteries needs to double or triple to be practical for long range ferries, the current crop aren't doing long journeys


I guess it's a question of which will come first, hydrogen power, or higher density batteries. At the moment, hydrogen seems to have the edge for this particular niche market, but we'll see how it plays out

timsey tiger

ELM327 wrote: »

I still think H2 is a wasteful use of energy as it's less efficient than an efficient fossil fuel engine. However if it's a way to use excess energy that would otherwise be switched off then that's of course good.

Battery storage would be possible too though, and such ferries already exist in Norway.

That's great for short hops. How large would the battery be to get you across an ocean. Remember ships measure their fuel consumption in tonnes.:eek:

liamog

timsey tiger wrote: »

That's great for short hops. How large would the battery be to get you across an ocean. Remember ships measure their fuel consumption in tonnes.:eek:

We don't have to solve every scenario on day 1

timsey tiger

liamog wrote: »

We don't have to solve every scenario on day 1

I think we kind of have, H2 fuel cell, using renewalable energy. Works for the very small too. bbc

MJohnston

Most things that can work to take a bite out of fuel use, in any form, are worth exploring. Cargo ships and airplanes are among the biggest polluting vehicles, so even managing to reduce their emissions by 10% would be a big deal.

So, even if battery power doesn't work for a ship's entire journey, how much fuel can it remove from the equation? Could a cargo ship, plastered in PV cells, make transatlantic journeys alternating between fuel and electric? How much of a dent in fuel use could that make? I don't expect anyone here has these answers, but I do think it's wrong to think of these things as binary choices — if we can have hybrid cars and flexitarian diets, we can have hybrid planes and ships.

Kramer

Kramer wrote: »

Electric "JCB"s are entirely doable though, just need a decent 3 phase farm supply as previously said.

Think his one went cheap enough on Done Deal - went to a small farmer in West Clare who wanted something green to open a few dykes .



Details here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brutus

:pac:.

Just wait until you see its bigger brother https://static.turbosquid.com/Preview/2014/07/05__21_14_15/marion6360_View01.jpg62e4fcf5-9d83-4a11-9158-8807739e0c96Original.jpg
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