Random EV thoughts.....

KCross

smellyoldboot wrote: »

I'm not against EVs per se. I just think there's a fair way to go for them to actually replace ICE's

You are right. There is a long way to go and no one is saying otherwise. The lack of charging infrastructure is a real issue. Lack of on-street charging, price and choice. All real issues but all solvable with current tech and money and its happening already.... its just going to take a few years.

The proposed new ICE bans are just proposals. We will have ICE cars for decades yet so there is time to resolve the issues.

Your comments about battery replacements dont do you any favours do. You need to do more research before peddling that one again.

smellyoldboot wrote: »

I'm not convinced they will be the winning formula to get the job done.

Why not? The only alternative you have proposed is hydrogen and that has much greater obstacles and in any case a hydrogen fuelled car is still an EV (i.e. electric motor driven) just that the fuel is different but still fundamentally an EV so you seem to be simultaneously for and against EV's!

The main issues you have raised have been around price and charging infrastructure. We dont need a technological breakthrough to solve those. Its current tech and price, like all new tech, comes down over time as it scales up.

Generally your points seem to be based on taking the situation today and projecting that to the future and assuming that that's it as far as EV's are going to progress. Thats not whats happening or going to happen though....

e.g. In 2011 a 120km Leaf cost about €25-€28k. You can now buy EV's for similar money that have 3 times that range. What will it be like in another 10 years (solid state batteries, more infrastructure, more choice, more competition etc).

There isnt a fundamental flaw with EV tech. Electric motors are well proven. Battery capacity, as shown above, is improving in leaps and bounds. For now, BEV's are not for you as you dont have off-street parking.... that doesnt mean EV's are dead in the water... it just means you will be the last cohort to be able to adopt the tech.

AndyBoBandy

I went from Diesel to EV 11 months ago, we would do around ~25k km a year.... and just out of the blue we got an EV. 21,000km driven so far in the EV. Have been all over the country in it, and (really) needed to charge in the wild (away from home) 3 times.

Total spent on electricity so far... around €220 (some charging is/was got for free).
Brake pads are still only wearing in 21k km later..

liamog

KCross wrote: »

e.g. In 2011 a 120km Leaf cost about €25-€28k. You can now buy EV's for similar money that have 3 times that range. What will it be like in another 10 years (solid state batteries, more infrastructure, more choice, more competition etc).
.

It's a good example of how the battery degradation appears to be much worse than it is, that same 2011 leaf now has an 80km range, they are are holding 2/3 range after ten years, we know that they also improved battery chemistry to make them more resilient to time based battery loss starting in 2014.

A 2021 ID.3 with its current 350km will no doubt still have more than 250km in 2031 especially as they have a built in buffer.

AndyBoBandy

liamog wrote: »

It's a good example of how the battery degradation appears to be much worse than it is, that same 2011 leaf now has an 80km range, they are are holding 2/3 range after ten years, we know that they also improved battery chemistry to make them more resilient to time based battery loss starting in 2014.

These batteries also had no cooling, which affected the degradation badly...

Do the current Leaf batteries have cooling? if so, since when?

AndyBoBandy

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

These batteries also had no cooling, which affected the degradation badly...

Do the current Leaf batteries have cooling? if so, since when?

I think they're still air cooled, from what I have been reading it is mostly cars used in hot climates that suffer badly from degradation, cars used here seem to be far less affected.
Keeping the charge levels between 20 & 90% also seems to help.

smellyoldboot

KCross wrote: »

You are right. There is a long way to go and no one is saying otherwise. The lack of charging infrastructure is a real issue. Lack of on-street charging, price and choice. All real issues but all solvable with current tech and money and its happening already.... its just going to take a few years.

The proposed new ICE bans are just proposals. We will have ICE cars for decades yet so there is time to resolve the issues.

Your comments about battery replacements dont do you any favours do. You need to do more research before peddling that one again.




Why not? The only alternative you have proposed is hydrogen and that has much greater obstacles and in any case a hydrogen fuelled car is still an EV (i.e. electric motor driven) just that the fuel is different but still fundamentally an EV so you seem to be simultaneously for and against EV's!

The main issues you have raised have been around price and charging infrastructure. We dont need a technological breakthrough to solve those. Its current tech and price, like all new tech, comes down over time as it scales up.

Generally your points seem to be based on taking the situation today and projecting that to the future and assuming that that's it as far as EV's are going to progress. Thats not whats happening or going to happen though....

e.g. In 2011 a 120km Leaf cost about €25-€28k. You can now buy EV's for similar money that have 3 times that range. What will it be like in another 10 years (solid state batteries, more infrastructure, more choice, more competition etc).

There isnt a fundamental flaw with EV tech. Electric motors are well proven. Battery capacity, as shown above, is improving in leaps and bounds. For now, BEV's are not for you as you dont have off-street parking.... that doesnt mean EV's are dead in the water... it just means you will be the last cohort to be able to adopt the tech.

But the image is still there in the public eye that these things are knackered after 10 years on the road. The buying public now sees the Leaf at their price range and how crap it is.

For a long time US made cars pretty much collapsed in various ways after 100,000 or so miles. That likely isn't the case anymore (I don't know, it could be) but the image persists and they won't be selling too many of their models in the EU or even the US these days where Rav4s and Nissan Rogues are what people want.

Paddy's 2nd hand 2L Diesel still has 99% of its capabilities after those 10+ years and if it doesn't the price is reduced accordingly and the fix is relatively cheap and easy.

smellyoldboot

smellyoldboot wrote: »

But the image is still there in the public eye that these things are knackered after 10 years on the road. The buying public now sees the Leaf at their price range and how crap it is.

For a long time US made cars pretty much collapsed in various ways after 100,000 or so miles. That likely isn't the case anymore (I don't know, it could be) but the image persists and they won't be selling too many of their models in the EU or even the US these days where Rav4s and Nissan Rogues are what people want.

Paddy's 2nd hand 2L Diesel still has 99% of its capabilities after those 10+ years and if it doesn't the price is reduced accordingly and the fix is relatively cheap and easy.

A lot of car makers in the 1950s through to the late 1980s tried to make cars a "consumerable" item that you throw away after 8 years or so, people hated this refused to buy them (the second hand values of some fell through the floor*) and the makers got a bad reputation and now they last much longer.
*so did the driver's feet!

slave1

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

These batteries also had no cooling, which affected the degradation badly...

Do the current Leaf batteries have cooling? if so, since when?

Nope, no "active" cooling for any Leaf on the road today.
In reality this has zero impact on battery for the Leaf.
Severe degradation cases were on the first gen "lizard" battery pack in extreme locations like Arizona in the States, Nissan quickly revised the battery pack and fixed the issue.
Our Leaf without any active cooling is 92% SOH at just over 4years old.
Very steady decline, fek all impact on our range too.

liamog

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

These batteries also had no cooling, which affected the degradation badly...

Do the current Leaf batteries have cooling? if so, since when?

They changed the packs in 2014 by tweaking the chemistry, the original packs suffered from degradation due to time and heat, with the new chemistry, degradation is largely a function of charge cycles (correlates with distance travelled). It's still a bit more notable in Leaf's because of the way they they don't hide the buffer up front.
Nissan's batteries will degrade from excessive heat and would benefit from a battery cooler, but instead they use the BMS to manage the performance of the battery which is why we had rapidgate, as slave1 mentions it's only really a problem for people who need to do multiple rapid charges day.

KCross

slave1 wrote: »

Nope, no "active" cooling for any Leaf on the road today.
In reality this has zero impact on battery for the Leaf.

+1

You wouldnt think it though based on some of the commentary you see on here, with people claiming that Nissan and its batteries are terrible with huge degradation battery replacements being required and rapidgate is the devil incarnate... in reality it was all fine really.

Battery cooling is better but generally not required in Ireland, particularly on those early Leaf's as they were not motorway cars anyway... they were city cars really.

AndyBoBandy

This looks like a promising move...

https://twitter.com/dept_transport/status/1357322026436997127?s=21

liamog

Particularly this part

As part of the support for the SPSV sector, the Department of Transport is investing in the installation of SPSV dedicated recharging infrastructure across the country. Last year, chargers were installed at Dublin (22kW and 2 x 150kW) and Cork (22kW and 50kW) airports, which are both already operational, as well as at Dublin (Heuston), Cork (Kent) and Limerick (Colbert) train stations (2 x50Kw) which will be available to SPSV drivers by March. Further installations at key transport hubs will also be completed in 2021.

Kramer

smellyoldboot wrote: »

What's next? 'Electric cars can't be driven in the rain' You sound like a cretin certain Kerry politician.

That's just the cheap Teslas.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GRO-sNuquM

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-finally-admits-model-3-bumpers-fall-off-in-rain-a-1845437462

.

the_amazing_raisin

That's the problem with designing cars in California

There was probably a piece of the underbody missing before this that made the bumper into a scoop!

McGiver

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

This looks like a promising move...

https://twitter.com/dept_transport/status/1357322026436997127?s=21

Too little too late. By the time they install few chargers in few cities for taxis, the whole Europe will have had wireless chargers at taxi ranks! :cool:

silverharp

are there any models coming out in 2022? sub 40K range?

innrain

silverharp wrote: »

are there any models coming out in 2022? sub 40K range?

Are you asking for taxis or in general ?


I think with 20k scrappage deal MG5 would sell like hot cakes. Or at least it should
https://www.linders.ie/mg-5-ev

silverharp

innrain wrote: »

Are you asking for taxis or in general ?


I think with 20k scrappage deal MG5 would sell like hot cakes. Or at least it should
https://www.linders.ie/mg-5-ev

domestic vehicle, something that would compete with ID3 or the E208

MJohnston

silverharp wrote: »

are there any models coming out in 2022? sub 40K range?

BMW i4 might be close depending on the rebate amounts.

the_amazing_raisin

silverharp wrote: »

domestic vehicle, something that would compete with ID3 or the E208

There's the Corsa-E, which is basically the E-208 in disguise
Shorter range E-Niro and Kona as well
Nissan Ariya will have a shorter range model, but that might be 2022

MJohnston

silverharp wrote: »

domestic vehicle, something that would compete with ID3 or the E208

It's hard to know what the pricing will be this far out tbh, but by then we should have the following in the affordable domestic range:
- Citreon eC4
- Mazda MX-30
- Fiat 500
- new Kona
- Opel Mokka-e
- Skoda Enyaq
- two (?) new Ioniqs
- a new Kia

I'm sure there are others I'm not aware of too.

AndyBoBandy

See the €20,000 grant available to help taxi drivers to switch to a new BEV?
If they availed of this, would they then lose out on the SEAI grant? so the saving might not be as big as €20k?

Because if I was a taxi driver just now, I'd be looking for €18,000 down the side of the couch, and getting a new Kona, or check my jeans as well for €38k for a LR Model 3, and making a fortune taxi'ing them!!

580 km WLTP on a LR Model 3?? No problem, a taxi driver will get 700km hypermiling it... and then charging up at home every night for feck all!!

ELM327

Thats such a big grant. Any taxi driver not doing it needs to question themselves tbh. Essentially that 20k upfront cost for a Kona after grant or a bit more for an M3, is a prepayment against all repairs, servicing etc and also 90% of their fuel costs.

Bjorn Nyland interviewed a Norwegian Taxi Driver and Taxi drivers here should watch that video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Ef2qkV664

graememk

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

See the €20,000 grant available to help taxi drivers to switch to a new BEV?
If they availed of this, would they then lose out on the SEAI grant? so the saving might not be as big as €20k?

I don't think they get the seai grant,

The Black Oil

Watched Bjorn's video of Nissan Ariya in a showroom last night. What happens pre-production models after press interest has settled down, are they put aside or finished and sold?

the_amazing_raisin

The Black Oil wrote: »

Watched Bjorn's video of Nissan Ariya in a showroom last night. What happens pre-production models after press interest has settled down, are they put aside or finished and sold?

I think they tend to end up in a warehouse waiting to be disassembled or repurposed

I know of one early Tesla Model S which was converted to a test vehicle for autopilot and then given to the fire department for training in how to deal with a burning EV

silverharp

MJohnston wrote: »

It's hard to know what the pricing will be this far out tbh, but by then we should have the following in the affordable domestic range:
- Citreon eC4
- Mazda MX-30
- Fiat 500
- new Kona
- Opel Mokka-e
- Skoda Enyaq
- two (?) new Ioniqs
- a new Kia

I'm sure there are others I'm not aware of too.

the eC4 looks interesting

Zoe sized MG EV is supposed to be coming within a year too.