Random EV thoughts.....

MJohnston

MJohnston wrote: »

This is literally impossible. You can avoid buying direct from China or UAE, or even buying products "Made in" those countries, but if you're buying American, for example, you can be certain lots of your purchase money is going to those countries directly and indirectly.

Yes, I am aware.
I did specify "be it holidaying or working there".
As you say it's impossible not to have some of my cash going there but I won't go there on holiday and I'd never work there despite it being a huge pocket liner etc etc.

Sustainability etc is important to me.

In reduce, reuse recycle terms I try and do lots of reduce, as much reuse as possible and my recycling is done realising it's not great

I save more than I spend.

liamog

Mod Note: Removed the conversations re Chinese manufacturing of vaccines, this is the EV forum and a topic for other EV related news, can we bring it back to a relevant discussion please.

Liberalbrehon

Take a look at this beauty
Not EV but hydrogen fuel cell.

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEOdLgRSjUazWwuip0NSqEV0qGQgEKhAIACoHCAowqqOUCzCc4KkDMPqRxAY?hl=de&gl=DE&ceid=DE%3Ade

translate to english needed.

timsey tiger

Liberalbrehon wrote: »

Take a look at this beauty
Not EV but hydrogen fuel cell.

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEOdLgRSjUazWwuip0NSqEV0qGQgEKhAIACoHCAowqqOUCzCc4KkDMPqRxAY?hl=de&gl=DE&ceid=DE%3Ade

translate to english needed.

Oh! no fool cell tirade eminent. Nice, really looks like a chiron.

MarkN

Had a look at new Mokka e this week! Very good interior. 50kWh battery - on sale April.



Mod Note: Moved the rest of the photos and MarkN's video to the Mokka-E thread https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=115254699

ELM327

So, I reckon once this lockdown is finished, my plans are pretty set.

unkel

Ready when you are, tiger!

McGiver

Liberalbrehon wrote:

Take a look at this beauty Not EV but hydrogen fuel cell.

I can do mediocre German, can read articles at least.

On the same website there's another article:

Warten auf das Wasserstoff-Auto: Darum hat die Technik keine Chance gegen Akkus

Translates as:

Waiting for the hydrogen car - that's why this technology stands no chance against the batteries

I don't need to say more

Edit: apart from all the usual issues with H2 and FC, they're making an excellent point at the end of the article, that basically using H2 for FC is a total waste.

Hydrogen can and must have a completely different career: For example, the gas that was generated when renewable electricity was overproduced can be used directly in steel smelting, where it can replace coal. The potential for CO2 savings per kilogram of hydrogen used is much greater than with fuel cell cars, and the technical effort involved is relatively low. Similar processes could be developed for cement production. In the end, it might even make sense to put excess electricity in stationary systems with very large tanks for hydrogen production and to burn the gas in gas turbines with combined heat and power in the event of an electricity shortage. The efficiency of such systems is far higher than that of a fuel cell car - and the electricity generated with them could charge electric cars with batteries.

Markcheese

Is tesla's great advantage in ev tech not such a big deal for other car makers after all ..
I was looking at psa electric line up , they have 1 electric drivetrain .. so the 208, the 2008, all the way up to the e zafira and e-expert van ,
It's the same set up for all of them .. ( they may offer bigger motors in the future ,and you can get a bigger battery with some but it the same set up ..
And most people never buy the best / fastest/ most efficient car anyway , they just buy something that suits them ,that they like and is middle of the pack ....
So you could pretty much buy an off the shelf powertrain and software ,slot it in and tune the suspension to suit .. no massive r and d budget , no years and years of development .
(And I get that car companies have been doing that for years now , bmw buying peugeot diesels and mercedes fitting renault ones ) , but they were still mating it to their gear box, and tweaking cooling/ turbos/ emissions controls ..

the_amazing_raisin

Markcheese wrote: »

Is tesla's great advantage in ev tech not such a big deal for other car makers after all ..
I was looking at psa electric line up , they have 1 electric drivetrain .. so the 208, the 2008, all the way up to the e zafira and e-expert van ,
It's the same set up for all of them .. ( they may offer bigger motors in the future ,and you can get a bigger battery with some but it the same set up ..
And most people never buy the best / fastest/ most efficient car anyway , they just buy something that suits them ,that they like and is middle of the pack ....
So you could pretty much buy an off the shelf powertrain and software ,slot it in and tune the suspension to suit .. no massive r and d budget , no years and years of development .
(And I get that car companies have been doing that for years now , bmw buying peugeot diesels and mercedes fitting renault ones ) , but they were still mating it to their gear box, and tweaking cooling/ turbos/ emissions controls ..

Tesla's biggest advantage is having the largest rapid charging network exclusive to Tesla

In Western Europe the ionity coverage is excellent
https://ionity.eu/en/where-and-how.html

Ruggabugga101

To be fair we don't need it as good as mainland Europe as we can't do those distances.....better infastructure would be good though.

AndyBoBandy

cruisey1987 wrote: »

Tesla's biggest advantage is having the largest rapid charging network exclusive to Tesla

I had to go down to Cork on Thursday, And sweated it while I was down there that hopefully 1 of the 2 fast chargers in Frankfield/Rochestown would be A. Available & B. Working!!
(I got a charge in Frankfield with no issues, but heading back into the city later on, it was busy so I headed for Rochestown, which took me 10 minutes to get started (needed a call to eCars to reset the u it)).

Meanwhile on the way down and back at Ballacolla, I didn’t even have to think about whether or not I’d get a charge.....

innrain

Markcheese wrote: »

Is tesla's great advantage in ev tech not such a big deal for other car makers after all ..
I was looking at psa electric line up , they have 1 electric drivetrain .. so the 208, the 2008, all the way up to the e zafira and e-expert van ,
It's the same set up for all of them .. ( they may offer bigger motors in the future ,and you can get a bigger battery with some but it the same set up ..
And most people never buy the best / fastest/ most efficient car anyway , they just buy something that suits them ,that they like and is middle of the pack ....
So you could pretty much buy an off the shelf powertrain and software ,slot it in and tune the suspension to suit .. no massive r and d budget , no years and years of development .
(And I get that car companies have been doing that for years now , bmw buying peugeot diesels and mercedes fitting renault ones ) , but they were still mating it to their gear box, and tweaking cooling/ turbos/ emissions controls ..

Without being a fanboy I think yes we still need Tesla, just for that. To break the status-quo which you described. Without them the EVs would still look like milkfloats, complacent showing the world that there is no other way. It took Nissan 10 year to add a second model to their line-up, BMW and Renault the same. Would PSA bring the new cars to the market if they wouldn't be kept on their toes?
They also introduced the skateboard design which is gradually taken by other manufacturers, and because it makes cars more efficient would probably be the norm in the near future. Even their sales model is a breath of fresh air from the sawdust in the engine types. What about the OTA updates?
Without them we would still believe the one charger per site is the norm.

What you didn't mention in the off the shelf model is the battery. I think this is the place where the most gains can be made. If you'd to believe the figures published by Tesla the new batteries would provide a 16% range increase for a similar battery size and big production cost reduction. In this case I find the no R&D policy to be quite dangerous specially in a downward marked which is the auto industry right now. Would this model bleed money long term?
What I would want to see is another Tesla on the market. I want to see an Intel-AMD type race and not this stick-in-the-mud approach. Maybe VW would do this. I'm pretty confident that before VW will open the ordering books for the regular ID4s Tesla will drop their prices.

innrain

innrain wrote: »

Without being a fanboy I think yes we still need Tesla, just for that. To break the status-quo which you described. Without them the EVs would still look like milkfloats, complacent showing the world that there is no other way. It took Nissan 10 year to add a second model to their line-up, BMW and Renault the same. Would PSA bring the new cars to the market if they wouldn't be kept on their toes?
They also introduced the skateboard design which is gradually taken by other manufacturers, and because it makes cars more efficient would probably be the norm in the near future. Even their sales model is a breath of fresh air from the sawdust in the engine types. What about the OTA updates?
Without them we would still believe the one charger per site is the norm.

What you didn't mention in the off the shelf model is the battery. I think this is the place where the most gains can be made. If you'd to believe the figures published by Tesla the new batteries would provide a 16% range increase for a similar battery size and big production cost reduction. In this case I find the no R&D policy to be quite dangerous specially in a downward marked which is the auto industry right now. Would this model bleed money long term?
What I would want to see is another Tesla on the market. I want to see an Intel-AMD type race and not this stick-in-the-mud approach. Maybe VW would do this. I'm pretty confident that before VW will open the ordering books for the regular ID4s Tesla will drop their prices.

The 95g/km E.U. regulations are forcing manufacturers to innovate, not Tesla.

markpb

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The 95g/km E.U. regulations are forcing manufacturers to innovate, not Tesla.

If Tesla didn’t exist and the EU regulations did, I wonder what the state of the EV market would be. Genuine question. I think the earlier poster had a valid point. The Leaf might have made EVs affordable but they didn’t make them attractive (in any sense). The i3 is a great little car but it’s fair to say it didn’t take the world by storm. Tesla were also, for a long time, the only EV manufacture making decent sized family cars.

And that’s ignoring the other points they made about OTA updates and the sales model. People in the motors forum are quick to criticise dealers here for only stocking basic-spec models but the Tesla model avoids all that.

markpb

markpb wrote: »

If Tesla didn’t exist and the EU regulations did, I wonder what the state of the EV market would be. Genuine question. I think the earlier poster had a valid point. The Leaf might have made EVs affordable but they didn’t make them attractive (in any sense). The i3 is a great little car but it’s fair to say it didn’t take the world by storm.

And that’s ignoring the other points they made about OTA updates and the sales model. People in the motors forum are quick to criticise dealers here for only stocking basic-spec models but the Tesla model avoids all that.

Teslas would still exist.
It would be much the same as it is now except Teslas would be more expensive and selling in lesser quantities at higher prices.

garo

zg3409 wrote: »

I would have thought a niro would be better than a leaf as a taxi.
E.g. real 64kWh battery useable as opposed to biggest leaf which is less
Battery cooling, increases battery life and faster charging (although niro is not particularly fast)
Access to CCS chargers like ionity
11kW AC depending on model

The big downsides I see of EV taxi in general:
There is a massive problem now with taxis being commercially unviable during lockdown with big insurance and PCP or lease on existing car, and not being able to pay it
Often taxi drivers go 100km before they start work, and need 100km to get home.
You need to refuse the odd long trip like airport runs, or any trip when battery is low
Daily diesel costs are not that high (mate is a taxi driver) and offset by expensive fares and diesel costs can be claimed back (not sure if 100%)

Chargers are not in locations where taxis wait and typically they wait in a rank at say a dart station and have a radio or app for telephone bookings. The ranks are first in first out, and often they wait 30+ minutes. There would need to be say a 22kW AC for every spot, or a ticket/priority system, where they sit at charger, but customers are directed to them over those who arrive later.

If there are 3 taxis for every customer now and pubs arent going to be back to normal in 2021, nor airports, I would not be sinking any savings into lower fuel cost vehicle.

All this said if there was a bank of 150kW chargers at all taxi waiting areas it might make sense. New chargers at Dublin and Cork airport coming on line soon might make sense for those based at airports, particularly if airport queuing system takes into account charging. I would like to see cost benefit of fuel vs public 150kW charging mid shift, with home charging.

Bit late to this but I think this is completely off the mark. I was first turned on to EVs when I got into a leaf taxi in May 2019. Until then I too believed the usual guff about lack of range, batteries not good enough etc. I told the driver i was thinking hybrid and he said why would you? Why have two drivetrains and double the number of things that can go wrong. Well not double he said because the electric drivetrain is vastly superior and much less (read zero) maintenance. His Leaf was a year old at that point and he said he got > 250km range. Most days he drove 150-180km. 225 on the outside. Charger at home and at night rate it was €2 worth of charging every night. He had saved loads on petrol in the year. Down from 6000 to 600. Most urban taxi drivers drive under 250km a day and don’t need expensive fast charging.

And who drives 100km each way to start their taxi work? Maybe 5% of taxi drivers of even. Fine they can stick to PHEV or even ICE. But for the vast majority even a Leaf would do just fine. Airport taxis that do long journeys are a minority.

the_amazing_raisin

garo wrote: »

Bit late to this but I think this is completely off the mark. I was first turned on to EVs when I got into a leaf taxi in May 2019. Until then I too believed the usual guff about lack of range, batteries not good enough etc. I told the driver i was thinking hybrid and he said why would you? Why have two drivetrains and double the number of things that can go wrong. Well not double he said because the electric drivetrain is vastly superior and much less (read zero) maintenance. His Leaf was a year old at that point and he said he got > 250km range. Most days he drove 150-180km. 225 on the outside. Charger at home and at night rate it was €2 worth of charging every night. He had saved loads on petrol in the year. Down from 6000 to 600. Most urban taxi drivers drive under 250km a day and don’t need expensive fast charging.

And who drives 100km each way to start their taxi work? Maybe 5% of taxi drivers of even. Fine they can stick to PHEV or even ICE. But for the vast majority even a Leaf would do just fine. Airport taxis that do long journeys are a minority.

On a side note, saw Bjorn do a range test for a Mercedes EQV van. Finally a proper 7 seater EV with 100kWh battery and 110kW fast charging.

Something like that would be ideal for a limo or hackney service. I'm guessing it'll be pricey (the clue is in the Mercedes badge) but maybe there'll be a lower spec model more suited to the 2am party/vomit wagon home from the nightclub

garo

Lol. It will take forever to get here. Or then again maybe it will come here first and the sensible EV choice - the urban taxi - will still be covered in FUD.

Water John

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I had to go down to Cork on Thursday, And sweated it while I was down there that hopefully 1 of the 2 fast chargers in Frankfield/Rochestown would be A. Available & B. Working!!
(I got a charge in Frankfield with no issues, but heading back into the city later on, it was busy so I headed for Rochestown, which took me 10 minutes to get started (needed a call to eCars to reset the u it)).

Meanwhile on the way down and back at Ballacolla, I didn’t even have to think about whether or not I’d get a charge.....

Fermoy might be a better bet.

AndyBoBandy

Water John wrote: »

Fermoy might be a better bet.

It was on my back up list (as was Cashel (both ESB & Ionity)), but given I had the time to spare before collecting herself from her essential duties, I had the time to get the top up I needed before hitting the M8.

Though Fermoy would be fairly low down the list of potential stops on the M8 as you have to leave the motorway and drive into the town to get to the chargers, whereas at the likes of Cashel, its essentially a motorway services*


*on a side note, I've always complained about the lack of motorway services in Ireland (none up to a few years ago) (especially after driving thousands and thousands of miles/km's in the U.K./U.S./Europe over the years), but when you think of it, this model (only accessible from the motorway itself, like Castlebellingham) is probably not the best option for Ireland, as you are essentially closing them off to non motorway 'local' traffic, therefore losing potential business.

What we are seeing here, with a lot of services placed at motorway junctions, is a much better idea in that they are accessible to local traffic as well as motorway traffic. That local traffic could be helping to keep these places viable (especially in these times).

innrain

Deleted User wrote: »

The 95g/km E.U. regulations are forcing manufacturers to innovate, not Tesla.

The 95 g/km forced them to innovate the PHEV.

liamog

innrain wrote: »

The 95 g/km forced them to innovate the PHEV.

The evidence provided by Hyundai/Kia, VAG, and the Stellantis companies would appear to refute your assertion, they all seem to have gone gung-ho on EVs in segments that Tesla do not compete in.

innrain

liamog wrote: »

The evidence provided by Hyundai/Kia, VAG, and the Stellantis companies would appear to refute your assertion, they all seem to have gone gung-ho on EVs in segments that Tesla do not compete in.

VAG and Hyundai did invest in research, did invest in new platforms dedicated for EVs and did invest in charging infrastructure. I was speaking about those who don't and use the off the shelf model.
And I threw the affirmation there to be in tone with the previous comment anyway. The question is: Would the EU pollution limits be where they are if not for Tesla demonstration of EV viability? I'm following the EV phenomenon since 2015 reading both sides of the story. No later than 2018-2019 all auto magazines were shouting as loud as they could about how good choice the EURO6 diesel engine is and how EVs are moot. How many "researches" were pushed by the established auto houses to cool the EV adoption?
Here is an article from 2018:
“As an industry, we have to ensure the Government is behind diesel and that we are promoting it as the right fuel for certain uses,”
“If you have a Euro 6 diesel car, you can go into low emission zones; the diesel debate lobbying could be having an effect.”
However, the consumers surprised with demand over-passing the offer and sometimes waiting even one year to get a BEV while the sales of diesel engines took a nosedive. The PHEVs doubled last year compared with 2019. However, I question their relevance in the current climate. Would this car achieve the 123mpg claimed or the 51g/km? Is this not just a bit disingenuous?

liamog

innrain wrote: »

VAG and Hyundai did invest in research, did invest in new platforms dedicated for EVs and did invest in charging infrastructure. I was speaking about those who don't and use the off the shelf model.
And I threw the affirmation there to be in tone with the previous comment anyway.

The question is: Would the EU pollution limits be where they are if not for Tesla demonstration of EV viability?

I think Tesla are given far too much credit for moving the industry on with regard to electrification than they deserve. The actions of Nissan with the Leaf programme, and then later VW & BMW with the e-Up!, e-Golf, and I3 are what proved that EVs could be affordable in a reasonable time frame. Hyundai's goal with the release of the 2016 Ioniq was as a competitor to the Prius. Once those 2014 programmes proved the viability of the model it was relatively easy to move the regulations. It's not to take away from the impact that Tesla have had, but it's a very blinkered view to give them the exclusive credit.

The current regulations have predictably led to small BEVs, large BEV SUVs and then PHEVs in the middle.
It's difficult to package a small PHEV keep the efficiency down, which naturally leads to full electrification of small cars, the large SUVs are such gas guzzlers and have so much space for batteries that it makes sense to electrify them. In the middle you are left with everything else, where there is enough room for hybridisation and plug-in's to get you under the regulatory limits.

the_amazing_raisin

liamog wrote: »

I think Tesla are given far too much credit for moving the industry on with regard to electrification than they deserve. The actions of Nissan with the Leaf programme, and then later VW & BMW with the e-Up!, e-Golf, and I3 are what proved that EVs could be affordable in a reasonable time frame. Hyundai's goal with the release of the 2016 Ioniq was as a competitor to the Prius. Once those 2014 programmes proved the viability of the model it was relatively easy to move the regulations. It's not to take away from the impact that Tesla have had, but it's a very blinkered view to give them the exclusive credit.

The current regulations have predictably led to small BEVs, large BEV SUVs and then PHEVs in the middle.
It's difficult to package a small PHEV keep the efficiency down, which naturally leads to full electrification of small cars, the large SUVs are such gas guzzlers and have so much space for batteries that it makes sense to electrify them. In the middle you are left with everything else, where there is enough room for hybridisation and plug-in's to get you under the regulatory limits.

I think Tesla helped a lot to really push EVs to the forefront and make them cool. I genuinely think the legacy auto industry would have carried on a fairly minimalist EV strategy while pushing hybridisation. The market needed an external party to come in and disrupt things


I don't believe that ONLY Tesla could have done that, there's a bunch of other startups which stood an equal chance of success in the early days. I would say Tesla has largely defined the model of long range EV driving with their supercharger network



One thing I think Tesla has done is advance the level of computer integration in cars ways beyond where it was 10 years ago. If you looks at the interior design of modern cars in general, they're really moved towards the whole large centre display with the majority of controls going through that setup. Car software has advanced a lot as well, with things like OTA updates now being an expectation rather than a luxury



I would say it has also forced car makers to innovate in their own ways, for example the HUD in the VW ID models looks very cool, but would likely have remained in the premium brands unless VW had been forced to improve the tech in their cars

the_amazing_raisin

French government announdes €100m funding for rapid chargers

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/15/france-to-fund-fast-charging-sites-with-e100mn/

It seems someone in the French government has their thinking cap on, all sites required to have minimum of 4 chargers, at least 2 of which are 150kW or more

Irish government, please take note

NIMAN

cruisey1987 wrote: »

French government announdes €100m funding for rapid chargers

https://www.electrive.com/2021/02/15/france-to-fund-fast-charging-sites-with-e100mn/

It seems someone in the French government has their thinking cap on, all sites required to have minimum of 4 chargers, at least 2 of which are 150kW or more

Irish government, please take note

I would be very surprised if the Irish gov take note!

I know car sales have plummeted with CV19, but I heard a stat the other day when car sales were being discussed on radio, and think the figure for EV/Hybrid among new sales was something like 30%. Thats a huge increase and although most are likely hybrid, its a major figure if enough are plug-in hybrid.

Because once this pandemic is over, and if sales continue like this, then there is going to be a massive shortage of charging spaces around.

AndyBoBandy

NIMAN wrote: »

Because once this pandemic is over, and if sales continue like this, then there is going to be a massive shortage of charging spaces around.

Once a sort of normal resumes (and probably not even this year, but next year maybe), there are going to be a lot of folk driving around in their new 2020/2021 EV's who will suddenly find out how woefully inadequate our public charging infrastructure is...

The ESB should be full speed ahead now putting in the so called hubs that we need on motorways, as currently we have only 4-5 sites where 3 cars can charge simultaneously (as long as one of them is a Leaf)....

The queue's will be mental when we finally unlock!!