Ryanair Pilot Contract Question

rivegauche

billie1b wrote: »

Biggest bunch of crap, Ryanair have nowhere near 300 pilots sitting around, if anything they’re short a few hundred pilots still

Billie1B you are contradicting View Profile. He states that acquaintances of his aren't getting enough hours.

billie1b

rivegauche wrote: »

Billie1B you are contradicting View Profile. He states that acquaintances of his aren't getting enough hours.

Ryanair are still calling in pilots from other bases around Europe on their days off to cover the schedule, dead heading around the network and giving them €600 (per day) incentive for it, most days standby duties are called, it’s like winning the lotto if you don’t get called from your standby now, Ryanair has nowhere near it’s compliment of pilots, same as EI, they’re in a bad way too with the same situation for their pilots.
I’m not saying what View Profile said is untrue, you can be very sure a lot of pilots are only flying 60-70 hours monthly but that doesn’t mean Ryanair have pilots laying around, 90hrs is the maximum legal not a target, did View Profile state that maybe his friends were delayed on a previous days flight and put them out of hours for the next day which automatically puts you onto a sby and if called it will be a 2 sector 40 minute return flight.
There’s many reasons for flying only 60-70hrs some months.

rivegauche

...So you are saying that a pilot willing to do the hours and sacrifice his on-call days will get paid for those hours and get closer to progression to the other seat sooner which seems to be the ideal place for a highly motivated individual like the OP.

California Dreamer

I would think that unless posters are putting down their linkedin profile nobody can acutually be believed as to what their experience is. News from one source can be different from another source.

View Profile

rivegauche wrote:

Ryanair potentially has 300 more Pilots than it needs. Pilots at Ryanair had better cross their fingers and hope that the 737Max is allowed fly soon.

Just as well the unions managed to get a seniority system introduced so the full time staff are protected "if" a downturn happens.


Funny that they are still recruiting despite being overcrewed by 300 pilots.

rivegauche

That is almost Trumpesque. You will continue to use this forum as your soapbox to make unfair accusations against Ryanair come what may.
The quote I provided from a Ryanair HR staff member on pprune shows that they aren't recruiting. If there is a direct entry qualified pilot matching a base where they are lacking depth then they'll hire otherwise they are not looking for anyone but you don't want anyone to know that.

MoeJay

rivegauche wrote: »

That is almost Trumpesque. You will continue to use this forum as your soapbox to make unfair accusations against Ryanair come what may.
The quote I provided from a Ryanair HR staff member on pprune shows that they aren't recruiting. If there is a direct entry qualified pilot matching a base where they are lacking depth then they'll hire otherwise they are not looking for anyone but you don't want anyone to know that.

You provided a link to another website to another anonymous post. A website who has been exceptionally clear over the years about people who may appear to represent a particular person or organization to elicit specific reactions. So forgive me if I take it with a grain of salt.

You are the one making veiled threats against pilots here - “Pilots at Ryanair had better cross their fingers and hope that the 737Max is allowed fly soon.”

What do you mean by that?

rivegauche

MoeJay wrote: »

You provided a link to another website to another anonymous post. A website who has been exceptionally clear over the years about people who may appear to represent a particular person or organization to elicit specific reactions. So forgive me if I take it with a grain of salt.

There is no more doubt that these people aren't representatives of HR in Ryanair than anyone representing a company in the "Talk to" section of boards.ie and if you bothered to check you'd realise that.

You are the one making veiled threats against pilots here - “Pilots at Ryanair had better cross their fingers and hope that the 737Max is allowed fly soon.”

What do you mean by that?

Veiled theats? Events dictate whether those Pilots have work to do or not. If the 737Max doesn't get certified those pilots can be justifiably be made redundant as Ryanair's expansions are dependent on being able to fly routes. Absolutely no company would be expected to keep paying pilots if they don't have work for them. Some companies have already laid off pilots because of the 737Max grounding. Ryanair has kept pilots on the payroll because it can afford to and doesn't want to write-off the resources they have invested in their labour force.

...but some people here will continue to twist every event that ever happened anywhere to abuse Ryanair. Mendacious!

MoeJay

Pprune is no more reliable than any of us who post here, but you don't have to take my word for it..

And some people will use any event to paint Ryanair as the best thing since sliced bread, so here we are....!

And who exactly are you accusing of lying? And what about?

rivegauche

MoeJay wrote: »

Pprune is no more reliable than any of us who post here, but you don't have to take my word for it..

And some people will use any event to paint Ryanair as the best thing since sliced bread, so here we are....!

And who exactly are you accusing of lying? And what about?

I refer to the "talk to" section of boards.ie not the jungle that is the rest of boards.ie.

Mendacity extends beyond bald lies and anything which can be distorted to paint Ryanair in a bad light is gleefully seized upon by many here.

MoeJay

rivegauche wrote: »

I refer to the "talk to" section of boards.ie not the jungle that is the rest of boards.ie.

Mendacity extends beyond bald lies and anything which can be distorted to paint Ryanair in a bad light is gleefully seized upon by many here.

Well then you quite happily do not compare like with like. Maybe to suit an argument. But that is fine, I'll keep my grain of salt.

And mendacity is to accuse people of being untruthful. Or is that there are true stories out there that do not paint Ryanair in a good light and is that a problem?

California Dreamer

rivegauche wrote: »

anything which can be distorted to paint Ryanair in a bad light is gleefully seized upon by many here.

I think that is true of anybody whether they be the public, media, staff or ex staff and that is no secret.

Everybody at some stage or another will have their horror stories of being stranded in some remote airport 50 miles from anywhere but the same time neglect to say that they paid €1 for the flight!

Pilots will moan that they had to work maximum hours, go from earlies to lates and back again and report to a new base with 2 days notice and not get so much as a bottle of water! Some of these guys are still doing that, some are now sitting in the left seat of a 777 but again, never let a good story get in the way of the scandal. Most of the guys that I know that have been and gone will still acknowledge that the training they got as young FO's is still carried by them today.

It may of be harsh or draconian but it has worked for what is simply europes most successful airline.

1123heavy

California Dreamer wrote: »

I think that is true of anybody whether they be the public, media, staff or ex staff and that is no secret.

Everybody at some stage or another will have their horror stories of being stranded in some remote airport 50 miles from anywhere but the same time neglect to say that they paid €1 for the flight!

Pilots will moan that they had to work maximum hours, go from earlies to lates and back again and report to a new base with 2 days notice and not get so much as a bottle of water! Some of these guys are still doing that, some are now sitting in the left seat of a 777 but again, never let a good story get in the way of the scandal. Most of the guys that I know that have been and gone will still acknowledge that the training they got as young FO's is still carried by them today.

It may of be harsh or draconian but it has worked for what is simply europes most successful airline.

What is it about RYR training that Aer lingus, lufthansa, BA, Stobart, flybe, air france, easyjet ... and just about most other major airlines in Europe are not able to live up to?

I hear this so often and its laughable, of course where would we all be without that ryanair training department working its miracles :rolleyes: I'm not saying the training isn't good, i'm confident it is very good ... but it seems to be all they have to offer when the endless list of bad things the company does is brought up ... "oh but we've the best training department". We don't live in Africa where the standard is low across the board and that could be a selling point. It's Europe and its 2019, few major players do not offer exceptional training.

Why have these people you speak of "been and gone" and not stayed? Personal circumstances/exceptions aside, the reality is that almost all of the major airlines in Europe offer a quality of training that is equal to or perhaps even better than what Ryanair do ... and they also provide a career worth staying for. Ryanair don't, hence the revolving door situation. So rather than "carrying" those skills learned in the early days to another company, like the RYR guys do, they get to repay it back within the company that taught them in the first place.



Unless you're Italian, Spanish, Greek or from some other country with a failing/bankrupt national carrier, Ryanair isn't of any particular interest. In fact most guys i know used ryanair as an 'insurance' policy, in case they didn't get into BA, flybe, jet2, Stobart etc then they'd have Ryanair as their backup.

California Dreamer

1123heavy wrote: »

In fact most guys i know used ryanair as an 'insurance' policy, in case they didn't get into BA, flybe, jet2, Stobart etc then they'd have Ryanair as their backup.

Oh I agree with you but firstly, I am not a commercial pilot and only work indirectly within the business so any of the information I have is 2nd hand.

I have heard those exact same things about the training etc. Whilst the training is just as good in other companies maybe there is just something different about the Ryanair way of doing things.

The same concept could be used about many sectors. Why is lidl and aldi so popular and cheap and what sets them apart from Dunnes and Tesco?

I suppose unless one of us is actually in the company working and gives a good reason we will never know. For all I know you could be Michael O'Leary or a 14 year old kid on school holidays. Thats the thing about message boards.

California Dreamer

I may get in trouble for this but I lifted this off a discussion on Pprune. Has a very honest assessment of Ryanair from one that is there. There are pros and cons to every job.

(better to beg forgiveness that ask permission Tenger)

Well. I am a RYR skipper as well. However, worked for many airlines before, some of them great(and dead now), some other not so much. Far from being 24. In the old days we used to fly a 23 year old FO was something mentionable.Then it moved to 21 and they where considered kids, then 19.... Now we are in the age of kid captains, well, as long as the insurers join the game it seems to be smooth for the airlines. Saves a lot of money. My 10 cents about NG flying.

RYR is in fact, for SOME of us, the BEST option that not many other airlines, even most of the european "legacies", just cannot beat. What do I mean? I joined with a particular base in mind(and if the close it/transfer me I am out of here), only wanted a DEC job with an employment contract(no agency BS). Got both. Happy. Always see my kids, wife, every day. Sleep in my bed nearly every day(exception the sim if it is a 2 session gig). After 25 years of NOT having that - fantastic. Have done this longhaul, widebody skipper crap, not worth it(IMHO, of course, as always). Same short range jobs with "established" carriers, meaning you start day 1 at your homebase(or deadhead), fly, hotel, fly again, hotel, fly, usually another hotel, fly, home. Normally not more then 2 days off and it starts over again.
Prefer to do that for 5 days in a row, hopefully with at least 1 Stby, 4 OFF. REALLY? That is bad in your eyes?
IF you manage(and you did your homework before) to ask for the right country you end up with a decent salary in RYR. I got my country, base. Happy. Simple as that.

You live with that what they throw at you, say nicely yes, tick your box at crewdock and go on with your nice life.

Do you seriously think life in EK or in China(Xiamen is the place where most RYR guys went off to, check how many are really happy over there) is better? In Europe you can always call a lawyer, unions(lol), a court to try to fight for your rights. Try that with the Middle East or China(or India, Korea, even in Japan it is a hell of a job to organize that for, lets say, an European).

There is this boy, 24, soon having a chance to get an upgrade on one of the most used single aisle aircraft in this horrible world. Of course you go for it. And get some bloody command experience, at LEAST 2000 hours. If you add a few k more you may even get a direct entry command on a widebody. After all it does not make really a difference how big the plane is after the cockpit if you know what you are doing. And again, I used to be a widebody skipper.

Now - RYR has unions (what they are worth it, but this counts as well for any other european airline), CLA, some seniority lists implemented so they cannot ship you off your base/country if you have been around for a while(and a while in RYR is not really that long). Means after a few years you are fine. Why the hell would you change that? I know some (irish) guys went to "Shamrock" for instance, others to HOP(because this is the only way into AF it seems for french, no idea), others for Dolomiti(LH, same as AF)). But this means, IF you are a captain, back to square 1. And for what exactly? For some feeder airline with no realistic chance to join the mainline? Same goes for Shamrock.
If you plan to do so it would be wise to do that really young(because any older does not make really any financial sense) - still - you have worse rosters and equal pay at best. AND a really long cue ahead of you for upgrading. Cool advice. Leave the winning team(and let's be honest, if we like it or not, RYR IS the winning team as long as the European Union is not doing something against their working practice - they did never till now, see Italy for instance. Put their tail between their rear legs and ran whimping off till now) and join average airlines with no real remarkable perks.

We need to stay realistic here.

Just for the fun of it - let's "explore" the other option - going longhaul as a 24 year old FO. I could not really find a hint if it would be the ME(most likely) or some classic carrier here in Europe(3 sorts then, classic Mainline, meaning you are close to 40 till command, or classic charter, usually all of them having some sort of "mafia" style upgrade policy wih no real seniority, upgrades usually always just a promise but you do not know when that ever happens, especially it really depends on fleet growth OR loco Longhaul, lets say a 787(^^) - only one of them around, and we all know how they are doing at the moment).
We have seen how many airlines folded over the last 18 months here in Europe, some are still fighting to get up on their feet again.

EK/QR - they do with you what they want. You always thought RYR is threating you like you are their bitch? Try the ME and get some first hand impressions about proper labour laws. Again - have been there, know what I am talking about.

Or there are some cargo operators, 777(german speaking required) or 747(horrible chain rosters with not enough pilots). OR you can have a 5/4.

I am not a "fan" of RYR, but I only would leave them on my terms and not on others. And to be blunt honest, not so many good airlines are remaining on this planet that I would know which of them would be really worth the hassle of another change. Most of them are bad as well, and just for the nicer threatment I just do not change company anymore.

1123heavy

California Dreamer wrote: »

I may get in trouble for this but I lifted this off a discussion on Pprune. Has a very honest assessment of Ryanair from one that is there. There are pros and cons to every job.

(better to beg forgiveness that ask permission Tenger)

That post is about the luxuries of living in Europe more than anything else, the rights you are guaranteed and ability to challenge via the courts and negotiate with a union. You have that with any respectable European employer and most don't play games with the union like RYR do ... just ask BALPA about that.

The only thing in there that's really about RYR is the regional basing they can offer for some, and he even says if they moved his base he would be out of there in an instant.

Tenger

I dont subscribe to this notion of FR having "the best training available". Im more of the mind that the long multi sector days and tight commercial/operational pressure is a great 'boot camp'/ training environment for any budding looking forward to a career in aviation. The diverse network across multiple nations is certainly a good training ground as opposed to domestic flights within France/Germany/Italy etc.

Im guessing that many a pilot in control of a B777/A330 in Asia/Africa/ME whilst in a tricky situation is able to look back on their early career shuttling across Europe and think "this isnt too bad".
Im not talking hands on aviation skills but more the personal resilience to delays, changes of duty, missing out on family events etc.e

Edit- this view is certainly outdated by now though, with similar commercial pressures on all Euro carriers. During my time in EI pilots might only fly 650-700 hours per year. Im pretty sure its got to be at least 800 recently.


EDIT: just read the quoted statement posted above. I would pretty much agree with his thoughts. He states that he was lucky and got the base he wanted, thus he is happy. He makes a valid point about the 5 on/4 off pattern and seeing your family each night. (I think he may be a little off with his assessment of 'shamrock', due to their current expansion process. But I cant say whether he is actually wrong)
I cant argue with his assessment of Asian/ME carriers, with the demand for spots on their aircraft they can afford to be cut-throat to their employees.

1123heavy

https://careers.ryanair.com/cadets/

Seems as though the 'apply' button no longer takes you anywhere. Anyone know if they have stopped recruiting cadets or if it's an IT error?