DCM race series

Bananaleaf

Rashers Big Log wrote: »

Does anyone know if there are any plans in place to either move the date of DCM or perhaps postpone the start if Ireland make the semifinal of the rugby? Can’t imagine many would want to miss a potential World Cup semifinal surely DCM could accommodate?

Are you joking? I've been training for DCM for months. I would be disgusted if they changed the date if Ireland made the semi-final of the rugby world cup. I mean - what date would that be known by anyway? (obv not a rugby fan)

ligerdub

ted1 wrote: »

They really need to monitor the waves, team Carrie seem to start up front even though they all have different standards. And several were walking by 1 mile
And the walterstown crowd we’re running 10 a breast charting at one stage.

I’ve no problem with peoples pace it’s just when they lack consideration is the issue.

This piqued my interest, so I decided to look at the numbers of this one (pauses for valid slurs of anorak status....ok moving on).

I started with no assumptions to this and wanted to be as fair as possible. I deduce a few things:

- There are quite a lot of runners who start in Wave 1 but aren't of that standard (no surprise).

- The numbers starting too far back relative to their wave standard is larger in number (a bit of a surprise).

- The clubs you mention do have a high number of entrants too near to the front relative to their finishing time. Waterstown have highest average, finishing almost 1,000 places on average slower than their starting order. Team Carrie does have a high average, but is so based on a small number of their entrants being passed by about 5,000 runners. Take these outliers out and they would not be high on this average at all.

Both of those clubs mentioned have an average start time about 6 to 8 minutes from the gun, which is average or above average relative to other club starting times from the gun. The issue is looking at Wave 1 runners only, in which case both clubs stand out from the rest in being passed over by a high number of runners. In short it's a small number of their group leading to this problem, and may not be a fair reflection of those clubs overall.

A few images to back this up.

- HM19 Gun v Chip Time: Nothing too spectacular here.

- Wave 1 Starters Only: I used Wave 1 as anyone within 2.5 minutes in difference between their gun time and their chip time. The average finish time for this wave was 104 minutes. I can't remember the exact guidance for the target time but this seems at least a reasonably fair average from what I can recall. As you can see, most people in this wave finish between 80 mins and 120 mins. Around 300 participants though started in Wave 1 and had finishing times above 2 hours.

- Wave Size and Times: Shows the number of people starting in terms of difference from the gun time. Bulk of runners in Wave 2.

- Comparison of order of runner starting the race and reaching the finish time. Charts shows how the net number of people that passed the runner by (positive bars) or the net number of people the runner passed by (negative bars). The number of runners that overtook very large amounts of runners was larger than those overtaken by a large number.

- The same chart but only for the clubs mentioned.

- How each club compares on this scale, and then how each club compares looking only at Wave 1 runners.

I also found some errrrr "interesting" times in there. There seemed to be a few runners who started very long after the gun (about 15 mins later), didn't register at the 10 mile mark, and then finished with a chip time of between 1:30 and 1:45, roughly when the gun time was 1:50 to 2:00. It would seem quite difficult to hit those times while having to pass by the guts of 4,000 people on the way.

skyblue46

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Narrower start corral. Half the width of the main road. That enables the field to spread out much quicker if the selfish cnuts are going to go into wave 1. Too many people walking after 2km yesterday.

If you can't do a half in under two hours then start at the 2 hr over or behind.

Two of my friends got tripped up as a result yesterday and several others at the finish had cut knees and elbows.

After the FD 10 some were suggesting the area was too narrow, you think it should be narrower. Doctors differ....haha.

Burkie1203

skyblue46 wrote: »

After the FD 10 some were suggesting the area was too narrow, you think it should be narrower. Doctors differ....haha.

The FD10 and Half had the corrals the entire width of chesterfield avenue. After 2-3km yesterday there was a good few people walking as we went down the back of the Park through the twisty bit above furry Glen. It was very difficult to get past people due to the crowded nature of the start.

Irish Runner 10 mile had the start half the width of the main road and had none of these issues because by the time we hit Ordanance Road the field, albeit smaller, was well spread out

skyblue46

Burkie1203 wrote: »

skyblue46 wrote: »

After the FD 10 some were suggesting the area was too narrow, you think it should be narrower. Doctors differ....haha.

The FD10 and Half had the corrals the entire width of chesterfield avenue. After 2-3km yesterday there was a good few people walking as we went down the back of the Park through the twisty bit above furry Glen. It was very difficult to get past people due to the crowded nature of the start.

Irish Runner 10 mile had the start half the width of the main road and had none of these issues because by the time we hit Ordanance Road the field, albeit smaller, was well spread out

I don't understand the logic here. A narrower funnel or pipe is always easier blocked and slower to pass through.

Bottom line is that these are all excellently well run mass participation events. For all bar a few elites there will be bumping and boring going on. It's part of the fun.

Burkie1203

skyblue46 wrote: »

I don't understand the logic here. A narrower funnel or pipe is always easier blocked and slower to pass through.

Bottom line is that these are all excellently well run mass participation events. For all bar a few elites there will be bumping and boring going on. It's part of the fun.

5m wide corral. 11m wide main road. Not difficult to understand how the field would spread out if they have twice as much space for the first 500m

skyblue46

Burkie1203 wrote: »

skyblue46 wrote: »

I don't understand the logic here. A narrower funnel or pipe is always easier blocked and slower to pass through.

Bottom line is that these are all excellently well run mass participation events. For all bar a few elites there will be bumping and boring going on. It's part of the fun.

5m wide corral. 11m wide main road. Not difficult to understand how the field would spread out if they have twice as much space for the first 500m

Yes but the blockage behind would be worse and people would make an even bigger effort to get to the front for the next race. As Murph said it's not a problem of the organisers making, it's one of the participants making.

event

Burkie1203 wrote: »

event wrote: »

How do you provide proof?

Fence the start the same way as the finish, have small opening for entry and show your watch or phone data.

I know plenty of runners who use a stop watch and nothing else, they run by feel and pace themselves perfectly, lads who run sub 3.

Let's be clear, this is the Dublin half marathon, not Boston. You think 9000 people should have to show their phone or watch to a volunteer? Should we all be there at 08:00 to make sure we have enough time?

event

Bananaleaf wrote: »

Rashers Big Log wrote: »

Does anyone know if there are any plans in place to either move the date of DCM or perhaps postpone the start if Ireland make the semifinal of the rugby? Can’t imagine many would want to miss a potential World Cup semifinal surely DCM could accommodate?

Are you joking? I've been training for DCM for months. I would be disgusted if they changed the date if Ireland made the semi-final of the rugby world cup. I mean - what date would that be known by anyway? (obv not a rugby fan)

They will in their hole change the marathon, don't worry

Negative_G

I have to say, I have no idea who or what "team carrie" is but they would want to have a good look at themselves.

While its not very scientific, someone who looks like they are in the region of about 18 stone are very unlikely to do a sub 90 min 1/2 marathon. Yet there they are, up the front, only to walk the rest from 1km in.

There's no excuse for it. Pure stupidity or ignorance or both.

SeeMoreBut

Not an easy job but a little fast

http://www.finisherpix.com/gallery/photo/en/eur/3209/3207/3209_004528#3209_004528

niallo32

SeeMoreBut wrote: »

Not an easy job but a little fast

http://www.finisherpix.com/gallery/photo/en/eur/3209/3207/3209_004528#3209_004528

He dialled it back, he was 40 odd seconds ahead of pace after 5k

Damo 2k9

Thought the event was extremely well ran. No cars after the start line like the FD10 made a huge difference IMO. I started in the perfect spot, about 4-5 rows behind 1:30 pacers and found congestion no issues. Its always a lot worse in Wave 2.

The water cups at the end are a great idea, a lot more portaloo's than normal I think which was great to see.

blackwhite

Organisation was very good this year.

As said - walkers starting too far forward remains a bugbear, but that's not the organisers fault.

A new thing (for me anyway) that p*ssed me off at the finish line area - just before the barriers approaching the line, there were already finished participants from a few of the "teams" walking out onto the road to cheer on team-mates approaching the finish - getting in the way of anyone else running the final stretch.

You've literally just been running the same section - how f*cking stupid do you need to be to walk out in front of other runners :mad:

Unthought Known

Looks like this lady used a fake number (my number) to run it on Saturday

glacial_pace71

Unthought Known wrote: »

Looks like this lady used a fake number (my number) to run it on Saturday

It's possible that a runner might have mixed up their race numbers from the bundle received at the start of the race series, i.e. not a case of identity theft - more a case of her wondering why her finish time didn't register?

(Btw that link is giving some strange readings - you may wish to edit).

blackwhite

Her number is black on a white background - all the numbers for this were white letters on navy background.

Can't make out what event is printed under the number - but she's very clearly worn a number from a different event.

Fraggle07

I could be wrong but it looks very like the Great Ireland run numbers

The Davestator

I didn't realise that race numbers were re-usable.

and me buying new race numbers for every race like a sucker:)

Krusty_Clown

SeeMoreBut wrote: »

Not an easy job but a little fast

http://www.finisherpix.com/gallery/photo/en/eur/3209/3207/3209_004528#3209_004528

Thanks for the photo! My finish time was a little fast (1:28:15 to be exact), but that's why the race has two pacers allocated to each band. I was at the front with a large group (which may have included you?) and Joe was to the rear, finishing in a far more temperate 1:29:30. Between us we shepherded a very sizable number of runners across the finish line, either at or ahead of their goal times. Sometimes, the only praise you get for pacing, is watching while those you have paced leave you for dust with 800m to go and while I was delighted to see so many pick up the pace over the closing stages of the race, it was also great to meet so many happy runners after crossing the finish line who had achieved or exceeded their goals. Hopefully you guys were among them and achieved your race goals.

Explosive_Cornflake

glacial_pace71 wrote: »

It's possible that a runner might have mixed up their race numbers from the bundle received at the start of the race series, i.e. not a case of identity theft - more a case of her wondering why her finish time didn't register?

(Btw that link is giving some strange readings - you may wish to edit).

The numbers were the same for all the race series, at least mine and my wife's were.

colin32

event wrote: »

How do you provide proof?

Send a screen shot or link to your strava or whatever app the person uses. Cause everyone will use some sort of app to track their run

event

colin32 wrote: »

event wrote: »

How do you provide proof?

Send a screen shot or link to your strava or whatever app the person uses. Cause everyone will use some sort of app to track their run

No everyone does not use an app to track their runs.

colin32

I'd say 99% of people would if not 100%. Surely 99% of people sending in proof would be better than people starting from the wrong position

Unless you're one of the people who tend to start to far ahead, and that's why you looking to pick faults with a suggestion

I'm out of this thread now

Casey78

Rashers Big Log wrote: »

Does anyone know if there are any plans in place to either move the date of DCM or perhaps postpone the start if Ireland make the semifinal of the rugby? Can’t imagine many would want to miss a potential World Cup semifinal surely DCM could accommodate?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen wrote on here.
As I said in another thread, far more people won't care than will care.
Rugby really isn't that big of a sport in Ireland despite what the D4 media tells us.
Change the date of the Marathon because of a Rugby game, I've heard it all now.

chris85

Casey78 wrote: »

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen wrote on here.
As I said in another thread, far more people won't care than will care.
Rugby really isn't that big of a sport in Ireland despite what the D4 media tells us.
Change the date of the Marathon because of a Rugby game, I've heard it all now.

Yep I am a huge rugby fan but no way this event takes a back seat. The amount of planning, road closures, logistics that goes into this you couldn't even push it back 30 mins without knock on impacts all over the city. My plan would be to listen to radio commentary during the race probably if it happens.

Murph_D

colin32 wrote: »

Send a screen shot or link to your strava or whatever app the person uses. Cause everyone will use some sort of app to track their run

Again - who is going to police this? You want a volunteer to go through thousands of strava links (which could be easily faked) to solve this problem. Or the race organisers build the cost of this compliance into the overall costs and everyone's ticket price goes up. Have a look at ligerdub's post earlier - one of his conclusions after analysing the results data was that more people start too far back than the other way around!

This problem will always be around - it's human nature, Plus in county, province or national club competitions (such as Frank Duffy and DCM e.g.) lots of decent club runners also start too far forward as results are computed on gun time, so starting too far forward is actually incentivised.

It's an issue, but one that can be planned around with a bit of thought, especially in longer races.

glacial_pace71

chris85 wrote: »

Yep I am a huge rugby fan but no way this event takes a back seat. The amount of planning, road closures, logistics that goes into this you couldn't even push it back 30 mins without knock on impacts all over the city. My plan would be to listen to radio commentary during the race probably if it happens.

And if there's any problems with the start then the rugby types can bind and drive.

Singer

This debate is a little silly, but anyway.

I've seen good management of runners done at two races:
1. Crusaders' Docklands 5k. The front of the race (sub-20 or so) is well policed, people are told to get behind their respective pacers and the runners are sent out in waves. There's a high enough volunteer to runner ratio and the start is pretty narrow so it's easy to get the message across, and a lot of people do sort themselves out.
2. DisneyWorld Marathon. It's a huge commercial event and has 8 or 9 well policed corrals with large fences around their side, and verifies races times for corral placement. All part of the ~$200 entry fee.

For large events it's difficult to police this, strict corral management and verifying race times is expensive and requires a load of infrastructure, communications and additional work. The honour system for the Dublin Marathon (enter in your expected time) is a good pragmatic compromise that avoids verification but they still have to put the strict wave management in place which would be a pain to pull off in the Phoenix Park.

event

colin32 wrote: »

I'd say 99% of people would if not 100%. Surely 99% of people sending in proof would be better than people starting from the wrong position

Unless you're one of the people who tend to start to far ahead, and that's why you looking to pick faults with a suggestion

I'm out of this thread now

Ha, nice. No I'm not BTW. Not great by any means but I generally start in the right wave.

I'm not picking faults, it's just a poor suggestion. This is not a major issue, happens in lots of races. Get over it.
But thinking people should have to show their strava or watch data to get in to the correct wave is ludicrous.

How far do you go back? Do you look at the last 4 months of data? Does it have to be in km or miles?