Vorsprung durch cheating

peasant

Dieselgate isn't over yet.

Over the last few days investigations by the German Handelsblatt newspaper (kinda the German financial times) and Bayerischer Rundfunk (publicly owned Bavarian TV and radio station) have discovered that Audi was selling engines with cheat devices up to early 2018.

Not just one cheat device, but four different ones on the one engine...three years after dieselgate was first discovered.

The affected engine is the V6 tdi, used in Audi, VW and Porsche vehicles.
The 2018 Audi A8 with that engine apparently produces 18 times more NOx than the norm.

None of these engines made it to the US market, as Audi had been found cheating there before, but they sold them happily all over Europe.

Also implicated in this mess is the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt (KBA), the German motoring regulatory office.
They happily accepted Audi's assurances that they didn't use cheating devices.
Now Audi had to come clean about one of the four installed and the KBA is forcing them to do a recall to remove...one device, and one only.

Some 60.000 vehicles with the V6 diesel are now getting recalled to get fixed a little bit

Most of the articles, analysis and videos about this mess is in German at the moment, as the news is only just breaking ...but here is one link to an Indian article that backs up most of what I just said.

https://www.rushlane.com/audis-dieselgate-cheat-device-12314937.html

colm_mcm

"I saved you, " cried the woman
"And you've bitten me, but why?
You know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die"
"Oh shut up, silly woman, " said the reptile with a grin
"You knew damn well I was a snake before you took me in”

Old diesel

Yet this year in some real world test the A8 50 tdi managed to do a very low reading.

peasant

Old diesel wrote: »

Yet this year in some real world test the A8 50 tdi managed to do a very low reading.

Just goes to show that it can be done...they just couldn't be arsed to do it earlier.
Had a few more old engines to sell...profit to make.

Old diesel

peasant wrote: »

Old diesel wrote: »

Yet this year in some real world test the A8 50 tdi managed to do a very low reading.

Just goes to show that it can be done...they just couldn't be arsed to do it earlier.
Had a few more old engines to sell...profit to make.

There is stricter laws from next year I think.

The Mercedes C220d had ZERO mg per km.

The A8 was at 15 mg per km.

Test was real world driving conditions by the German ADAC.

The Civic was worst diesel at 101 mg per km but that still meets the 114 mg new standard - currently 168 is the limit.

mikeecho

Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

I couldn't give eine Scheiße what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

_Kaiser_

mikeecho wrote: »

Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

I couldn't give eine Scheiße what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

It's fashionable to be seen to be Green at the moment. As always when there's an economic upturn, certain sections of society grow a conscience - or at least use the crusade to score some virtue signalling points.

Once things go south again though, all these ideals go with it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

mikeecho wrote: »

Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

I couldn't give eine Scheiße what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

Lovely attitude to have, really. There's far too many people on this planet with similar deplorable attitudes.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

It's fashionable to be seen to be Green at the moment. As always when there's an economic upturn, certain sections of society grow a conscience - or at least use the crusade to score some virtue signalling points.

Once things go south again though, all these ideals go with it.

:rolleyes:

Weak and lazy argument... If you could even call it an argument.

_Kaiser_

Trenton Wet Vista wrote: »

Lovely attitude to have, really. There's far too many people on this planet with similar deplorable attitudes.



:rolleyes:

Weak and lazy argument... If you could even call it an argument.

You're missing the point.. I don't care.

We live in a small country obsessed with showing the rest of the world how progressive we are. I am not one of those people, nor do I think that we should be heavily taxed (which is all this crusade is really about!) to "do our part" when the developing world puts out a lot more toxins than we ever will.

I drive a nine year old diesel with 375k km on the clock. I'm doing my bit for the environment by not replacing it every 2/3 years.

caff

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

You're missing the point.. I don't care.

We live in a small country obsessed with showing the rest of the world how progressive we are. I am not one of those people, nor do I think that we should be heavily taxed (which is all this crusade is really about!) to "do our part" when the developing world puts out a lot more toxins than we ever will.

I drive a nine year old diesel with 375k km on the clock. I'm doing my bit for the environment by not replacing it every 2/3 years.

You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I don't care.

And that's exactly why we should be taxed to the hilt on it. What do you think happens when enough people don't care?

We live in a small country obsessed with showing the rest of the world how progressive we are. I am not one of those people, nor do I think that we should be heavily taxed (which is all this crusade is really about!) to "do our part" when the developing world puts out a lot more toxins than we ever will.

So we should get a pass because of our size? It's fairly Ironic to live in a developed country and dictate to underdeveloped countries on their progression. We have it good, but you shouldn't. As to your tax conspiracy theory, it's exactly that. What's your stance on mankind's influence on the environment?

"Other countries are worse, so why should we do our part" is just a lazy lazy statement. Incredibly self centered, but that's the Irish mentality for you, me me me me.

I drive a nine year old diesel with 375k km on the clock. I'm doing my bit for the environment by not replacing it every 2/3 years.

I doubt the reason for not purchasing a car is due to the environment :rolleyes:

mikeecho

mikeecho wrote: »

Are people genuinely outraged at this sort of thing.

I couldn't give eine Schei what emissions my car emits, as long as it's not smoking im happy

Couldn’t give a damn either. Id have been shocked if car makers weren’t doing these sort of trick, it’s what I’d do if I was them.

If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

swarlb

caff wrote: »

You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people

Kaiser is right... it's all about 'the money'..

I have several cars , the 'newest' is a 20 year old Land Rover, as long as it passes the correct tests each year, I really don't care what comes out of the exhaust.
Back in the mid 70's I was part of a development of a 'electric vehicle' which was being proposed to be built in Dublin, I'll let you guess how that turned out.
Unfortunately people die from all sorts of things, which can be attributed to industry and lifestyle, maybe we should simply 'ban' everything and be done with it. The motorist is seen as an easy target, and cars in particular are almost seen in the same light as cigarette smokers.
Do you honestly think that when Ireland 'bans' the sale of all petrol and diesel cars in the near future, that car manufacturers are simply going to stop making them.. no, they'll simply sell more of them elsewhere.
We have this obsession with wanting to be seen as the 'best'... the 'best' educational system, the 'best' healthcare, the 'best' at lowering emissions, and all the while, the rest of the planet simply ploughs on.
I'll ask you an unanswerable question...
'When exactly, will the planet be 'saved', when exactly, will it all end'

Let's say, that in ten years time we get rid of EVERY SINGLE fossil fuel burning vehicle in Ireland. Will replacing the 'fleet' with electric cars be the solution.
What happens to all the trucks, busses, boats, larger boats, ships, trains, generators, lawnmowers, hedge trimmers.... how exactly will we sustain a country if we end up banning everything that burns fossil fuels.
If the humble diesel or petrol car is being seen as 'evil' because it emits toxic gasses, the ANYTHING that burns fuel in a similar manner is downright demonic.

stanbowles99

You're having a laugh.

Many of the car manufacturers were flagrantly breaking the law, developing technology to circumvent their legal obligations. They did this in the EU and the USA - and to date, they have been hammered by the authorities mainly in the US. The EU has been behind on this - probably because of pressure from the big German auto companies.

mikeecho

Car manufacturers have always been cheating.. before emissions were a thing, it was mpg/ fuel economy.

They removed bits like spare wheels,alternators, removed seats and unnecessary components, taped up door gaps, grills etc

All to give better "official" fuel economy figures.

Be outraged all you want, but the dangers of diesel were known back in the early 2000's.

Just like the environmental impact of mining for metals for all of the batteries we now need for our electric future are now known, yet ignored.

Give it 10 , 15 or 20 years and we'll all be up in arms at how environmentally damaging electric cars are.

Yet another thing to be morally outraged at.

stanbowles99

Adilynn Wonderful Saturn wrote: »

Couldn’t give a damn either. Id have been shocked if car makers weren’t doing these sort of trick, it’s what I’d do if I was them.

If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

What EU regulations? The shift to electric car production is partially a matter of national policy decisions and of voluntary commitments by manufacturers.

mikeecho

stanbowles99 wrote: »

Adilynn Wonderful Saturn wrote: »

Couldn’t give a damn either. Id have been shocked if car makers weren’t doing these sort of trick, it’s what I’d do if I was them.

If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

What EU regulations? The shift to electric car production is partially a matter of national policy decisions and of voluntary commitments by manufacturers.

Euro iv , v, vi regulations for ice.
They were pushing manufacturers to come up with less polluting engines.. and guess what.. they couldn't do it in the time frames given.

So the auto industry do what they do best.
Cheat.


Also, I don't honestly believe that since 2008 the Irish public bought diesel cars for environmental reasons.
They bought diesel for economy reasons.. cheaappp tax.

Cee-Jay-Cee

Thankfully due to our extortionate VRT and car prices we have bugger all of those models here.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Adilynn Wonderful Saturn wrote: »

If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

What's your suggestion? Allow manufactures create engines without limiting pollutants? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

mikeecho

Trenton Wet Vista wrote: »

Adilynn Wonderful Saturn wrote: »

If the Eu would stop their ridiculous crusade with new regulations there would be no need for car makers to be doing it.

What's your suggestion? Allow manufactures create engines without limiting pollutants? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

How about being less strict.

koutoubia

I think I have one! A V6 142 TDI. Although judging by a quick Google it seems to be from 2015 onwards. It was in Audi not too long ago for an aux heater recall. Surprisingly they were talking to me about 'cheat' devices ....NOT!

colm_mcm

caff wrote: »

You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people

I don’t see them banning wood burning stoves, their particulate matter is worse.

two wheels good

mikeecho wrote: »

How about being less strict.

Or give regulators more powers to sanction corporations and directors. Like the Californian regulators do. Fines and prison sentences would change behaviour quickly.
What sanction has the EU imposed on the individuals responsible in the past 3 years?

two wheels good

colm_mcm wrote: »

I don’t see them banning wood burning stoves, their particulate matter is worse.

But I'm not breathing the air in close proximity to hundreds of wood-stove chimneys every day - even throughout the Summer months.

Toyotafanboi

two wheels good wrote: »

But I'm not breathing the air in close proximity to hundreds of wood-stove chimneys every day - even throughout the Summer months.

If you live in town, you probably are.

two wheels good

Handelsblatt article in English

BTW: Daimler dieselgate article.

"The Federal Motor Transport Authority (KBA) has ordered Daimler to recall 700,000 Mercedes cars across Europe, including 280,000 in Germany for software alterations to remove alleged defeat devices. Daimler launched the updates last fall, but denies that the existing functions are illegal and has lodged an appeal against the KBA’s decision."

Jeez, Are they all criminal corporations? [Edit] Just noticed; article dated last year but news to me.

zilog_jones

mikeecho wrote: »

Just like the environmental impact of mining for metals for all of the batteries we now need for our electric future are now known, yet ignored.

They're being ignored because it's mostly a load of bollocks. Do you believe everything gowlbag "journalists" like Clarkson say? ICE cars still use a hell of a lot of metals and rare metals like platinum, etc.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

If you live in town, you probably are.

In the summer? In close proximity? Do you walk on roofs? I think it's safe to say there are more diesel cars in regular use in populated areas in Ireland than wood burning stoves.

mikeecho

zilog_jones wrote: »

mikeecho wrote: »

Just like the environmental impact of mining for metals for all of the batteries we now need for our electric future are now known, yet ignored.

They're being ignored because it's mostly a load of bollocks. Do you believe everything gowlbag "journalists" like Clarkson say? ICE cars still use a hell of a lot of metals and rare metals like platinum, etc.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

If you live in town, you probably are.

In the summer? In close proximity? Do you walk on roofs? I think it's safe to say there are more diesel cars in regular use in populated areas in Ireland than wood burning stoves.

Plenty of reputable news and scientific sources stating the impact of mining for lithium ion and Cobalt etc.
But let's just ignore that, and jump on the green bandwagon.

Tazzimus

Trenton Wet Vista wrote: »

I doubt the reason for not purchasing a car is due to the environment :rolleyes:

That comes across as possibly the most arseholey thing I've read on here for a while.


On the original topic, are we really surprised that this is happening? Companies will do all sorts of **** while they can get away with it, I'm sure there's probably a lot worse happening that we don't know of yet.

zilog_jones

mikeecho wrote: »

Plenty of reputable news and scientific sources stating the impact of mining for lithium ion and Cobalt etc.
But let's just ignore that, and jump on the green bandwagon.

Current batteries contain less than 2% lithium. I'm not so sure about cobalt content, but manufacturers are looking at moving away from cobalt completely, and most EV battery manufacturers have confirmed to be using ethical sources at least.

I'm not saying there is no problem with mining these materials, but you need to look at the full lifecycle assessment of these vehicles and not just the sourcing of minerals that form a tiny fraction of the car.

ShadowHearth

It's all good to fight for better environment. As big of a petrolhead I am, I have no issues to be in EV, when it's actually fun, affordable and has infrastructure to support it.
Unfortunately Ireland is Fighting environment battles by just increasing tax, that's about it. The best gravy train for those up there and us down here, will just try figure **** out ourselves.

peasant

Tazzimus wrote: »

On the original topic, are we really surprised that this is happening? Companies will do all sorts of **** while they can get away with it, I'm sure there's probably a lot worse happening that we don't know of yet.

Personally, no, not particularly surprised that car makers cheat.

But..

The fact that the KBA (the oversight autority) is in on it...that's a scandal.

(and very personally...as a German ...I feel that they've let the side down massively. Especially since Germans insist on ze rules being ze rules in every other field and look down their noses at slightly more flexible countries with more elastic rules)

two wheels good

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

If you live in town, you probably are.

Nah, stop deflecting. In my (inexpert) experience the predominant* air pollution problem outside of the home is from vehicle emissions - in the congested suburbs of Cork City and the traffic-blighted towns of Co Cork e.g. Macroom, Castlemartyr, Charleville, Buttevant.

The EPA's roadside monitoring on Cork's Link Road shows some pollution readings frequently off the scale, literally.

[Edit*] .. and my neighbours burning their rubbish in the garden!

Poulgorm

And why have we all these filthy diesels in the country? Because the Greens, when in government skewed VRT and road tax in favour of diesels.

Never heard them apologise either, for their error.

Tazzimus

peasant wrote: »

Personally, no, not particularly surprised that car makers cheat.

But..

The fact that the KBA (the oversight autority) is in on it...that's a scandal.

(and very personally...as a German ...I feel that they've let the side down massively. Especially since Germans insist on ze rules being ze rules in every other field and look down their noses at slightly more flexible countries with more elastic rules)

Honestly? I'm not.
I am surprised that it happened in Germany, seeing as they're known for being sticklers for rules.

As I said, if this is what we've discovered, how much do we not know about, especially in other countries where the rules are more "elastic" as you put it.

colm_mcm

two wheels good wrote: »

But I'm not breathing the air in close proximity to hundreds of wood-stove chimneys every day - even throughout the Summer months.

There are plenty people who are though.

One study from 2014 found that wood smoke was adding more particle pollution to London’s air than the first two phases of the city’s low-emission zone were expected to remove. In London and Birmingham, King’s College researchers reported wood accounted for up to 31% of locally produced particulates. And across Europe, wood burning is worsening pollution in capitals such as Paris, Berlin and Lisbon

two wheels good

Poulgorm wrote: »

And why have we all these filthy diesels in the country? Because the Greens, when in government skewed VRT and road tax in favour of diesels.

Never heard them apologise either, for their error.

Even in this thread you can't see who the real culprits were/are...
I'm repeating myself - again.... but loading the blame on the Green party on this topic has really become tiresome.

All across Europe govts and their scientific advisors were duped by the lobbying and marketing and lies and cheating of the motor manufacturers.
Isn't that blindingly obvious now.
Not just my view - the opinion of an ex Chief Scientific officer in the UK.
And it happened in countries where the Greens had no part in govt. e.g. Tory-ruled the UK.

So now we know all know the policy was mistaken, what was the Irish govt response since dieselgate? Have fuel prices been equalised? Or the favoured diesel tax bias been reduced? Is that inaction the Greens fault too?

two wheels good

colm_mcm wrote: »

There are plenty people who are though.

Off topic. Let's do something about car emissions and coal/wood fire heating to improve public health. It's not mutually exclusive.

Ash.J.Williams

caff wrote: »

You night be sceptical about co2 emissions etc but this is about no2, there are proven links between it and respiratory illnesses. Ireland has the highest rate of these in the EU. This isn't about a fashionable crusade it's about something we know kills people

And for that we can thank the greens for forcing diesel on us

Toyotafanboi

two wheels good wrote: »

Nah, stop deflecting. In my (inexpert) experience the predominant* air pollution problem outside of the home is from vehicle emissions - in the congested suburbs of Cork City and the traffic-blighted towns of Co Cork e.g. Macroom, Castlemartyr, Charleville, Buttevant.

The EPA's roadside monitoring on Cork's Link Road shows some pollution readings frequently off the scale, literally.

[Edit*] .. and my neighbours burning their rubbish in the garden!

It's not deflection.

I dont know the stats but I'd say in excess of 90% of homes are heated by fossil fuels, whether it be oil, gas or solid fuels. These are considerable contributors too. You can be inefficiently burning coal or kerosene, 12 hours a day, 230 days a year and nobody bats an eye.

I'm not by any means saying that ICE cars are innocent and working with cars in a confined space every day, their emissions are at the forefront of my own mind but let's not tax them out of practical existence until we have some viable options in place to replace them with, which at present, we dont.

I couldnt next nor near afford a new EV at the moment and if someone took my ICE car off me, by making it impractically expensive, I'd be in a difficult situation and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. We've made this mess for ourselves and it needs to be turned around ASAP, clearly, but we need a clever solution, not just a taxation increase on all things ICE, from a road transport point of view.

two wheels good

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

It's not deflection.

I dont know the stats but I'd say in excess of 90% of homes are heated by fossil fuels, whether it be oil, gas or solid fuels. These are considerable contributors too. You can be inefficiently burning coal or kerosene, 12 hours a day, 230 days a year and nobody bats an eye.

I'm not by any means saying that ICE cars are innocent and working with cars in a confined space every day, their emissions are at the forefront of my own mind but let's not tax them out of practical existence until we have some viable options in place to replace them with, which at present, we dont.

I couldnt next nor near afford a new EV at the moment and if someone took my ICE car off me, by making it impractically expensive, I'd be in a difficult situation and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. We've made this mess for ourselves and it needs to be turned around ASAP, clearly, but we need a clever solution, not just a taxation increase on all things ICE, from a road transport point of view.

All points very sensible and reasonable. And now that the topic is expanded fron wood stoves to all home heating I agree those emissions are significant and of concern too. (Would you expect any other response?)

But it was 20degrees outside and who's really thinking about wood stoves in July.
My opinion remains that the off-topic interjection of wood stoves was a cheap piece of deflection and whataboutery to detract from the gravity of the diesel emissions scandal. The message I infer is "Who cares about the corporate crooks - or the pedestrians? I just want to drive my chaape diesel."
The sort of deflection that derails so many promising threads on boards.

peasant

And so it goes on...

Dangerously high levels of nitrogen dioxide in Dublin pose a risk to public health, EPA warn

Dr Ciara McMahon, the EPA Programme Manager, said the new report is a cause for concern given the known health risks associated with high levels of nitrogen dioxide.

"Traffic is the dominant source of nitrogen dioxide in our urban areas and the public must be supported in taking clean transport choices if we want to reduce nitrogen dioxide concentrations in the air we breathe," she said.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dangerously-high-levels-of-nitrogen-dioxide-in-dublin-pose-a-risk-to-public-health-epa-warn-38291963.html

What's going to happen next?

Yepp...traffic bans for highly polluting vehicles (sooner or later)

And all of a sudden you WILL care what comes out of the exhaust of your car...and if you drive one of those cheating Audis that pollutes 18 times more than the law says, your f*cked. Not only can you not drive it, you can't sell it either...worthless over night.

Vorsprung indeed.

DaveyDave

ShadowHearth wrote: »

It's all good to fight for better environment. As big of a petrolhead I am, I have no issues to be in EV, when it's actually fun, affordable and has infrastructure to support it.
Unfortunately Ireland is Fighting environment battles by just increasing tax, that's about it. The best gravy train for those up there and us down here, will just try figure **** out ourselves.

Agreed. Ireland likes to throw tax at things, we need plans, ideas etc. At the moment they think they're doing us a favour with €5k VRT grants, but it doesn't cover it for a lot of EVs, they're also the ones charging emissions taxes on zero emission vehicles.

I'm all for electric cars once they're affordable.

colm_mcm

peasant wrote: »

And so it goes on...


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dangerously-high-levels-of-nitrogen-dioxide-in-dublin-pose-a-risk-to-public-health-epa-warn-38291963.html

What's going to happen next?

Yepp...traffic bans for highly polluting vehicles (sooner or later)

And all of a sudden you WILL care what comes out of the exhaust of your car...and if you drive one of those cheating Audis that pollutes 18 times more than the law says, your f*cked. Not only can you not drive it, you can't sell it either...worthless over night.

Vorsprung indeed.

Like they banned all the VW stuff in the initial dieselgate fiasco and made that worthless. Scary stuff.

peasant

peasant wrote: »

And so it goes on...


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dangerously-high-levels-of-nitrogen-dioxide-in-dublin-pose-a-risk-to-public-health-epa-warn-38291963.html

What's going to happen next?

Yepp...traffic bans for highly polluting vehicles (sooner or later)

And all of a sudden you WILL care what comes out of the exhaust of your car...and if you drive one of those cheating Audis that pollutes 18 times more than the law says, your f*cked. Not only can you not drive it, you can't sell it either...worthless over night.

Vorsprung indeed.

I go to Dublin a handfull of times a year (or no times as I really only go when my county is in Croke park and they ain’t this year), so they can ban whatever they want up there and it won’t bother me or impact on driving a diesel.

They won’t be banning anything anytime soon though so I wouldn’t be too worried nor about resale values. VWs of the diesel gate era have very high residuals like all vws.

colm_mcm

Apt username