Wrestling News & Rumours Thread ***NO CHAT***

LineOfBeauty

weareallmarks wrote: »

It isnt about accomplishments. They aint real. Ricochet has not shown any kind of personality. It is either because he is doing what he is told, or he has non. He may have non because he did the flips and didnt have to do the work on his personality.

He should leave right now, go anywhere else and start fresh with emphasis on his personality. Which right now is non existent.

EC3 has the opposite problem, massive personality minimal ability. Ryder has neither, Bennett has neither, Spears has less of either than ryder or bennett but they are all happier where they are which is key.

Wrestling isn't real is a pretty strange take to come at me with. Point of the accomplishments paragraph is to demonstrate that a range of high profile companies have trusted him in big spots, often big drawing spots, and to show with some of them (first gaijin Dream Gate run, best flyer of the 2010's) just how exceptional a talent he is.

2nd point. Nobody in WWE shows personality. Everyone delivers their weird WWE speak lines in the same cadence because that's what they are thought to do, everyone does their same overly choreographed entrance the same every night, unless you're put in a spot where you have to react to something emotional (and they're told to dial it up to 11) nobody shows any characteristic a regular human being could possibly empathise with.

3rd point and I hate to be that guy but honestly from your comment it sounds like you've never seen Ricochet outside of the confines of WWE.

beakerjoe

I like Ricochet, do I think hes a main eventer , no? Well not yet.

He hasnt shown much personality in WWE, but as LoB states, not many in WWE get the chance to show what they've got. Look at EC3 for example, I loved his TNA run, especially his work with Spud/Drake Maverick. Did he get to show that when he went to Raw? Not a hope. Are you telling me EC3 could have been better used? Yes, WWE didnt get the best out of him and they almost never get the best out of anyone, especially if they had a career before WWE.

Has Ricochet been used as best as they could? Id argue his NXT run was good but a bit short. He was thrown up to teh main roster in a make shift tag team, got over and was then doing great on his own despite not having a notable feud. He had wins over AJ, Lashley and a good spot with Brock at the Rumble (in comparison, Brock was throwing lads out left and right). When he faced Brock it wasnt too crazy to imagine him being able to potentially shock him in an ultimate under dog way.

Since then he was buried for reasons unknown (I speculate he didnt sign an extension around the time and paid the price).

He was very bland in terms of being a babyface. Is that his fault? Id imagine the shackles of WWEs writing/creative structure is to blame. Hes probably looked bland because hes trying to read a word for word promo that is WWE creative cookie cutter crap.

Look at Roman ? Hes a charismatic guy but hes hindered from being himself by these awful scripted promos. Even being top dog heel he still has to lay the WWE verbiage on thick.

Ricochet hasnt shown his personality much in WWE, but Id hardly hold that against him. If he goes to AEW, Id imagine he will fare better than in WWE as he will be trusted.

Id love to know why he was buried after the Brock Match. From headlining a PPV to counting the lights for Riddick Moss is a big change up in 2 weeks. Was it contract related I wonder as his contract is allegedly up 1 year later?

Necro

He should never have been fed to Brock in that fashion, was such a pointless match. At least they gave Balor some form of offense (though I would argue there was no need to feed Balor to him either in all honesty)

Brock isn't the guy you hand up and comers to for him to break in half - but WWE don't do logic very well.

Lithium93_

Tried to find a rip of the video to accompany this, but no luck.

thebostoncrab

Necro wrote: »

He should never have been fed to Brock in that fashion, was such a pointless match. At least they gave Balor some form of offense (though I would argue there was no need to feed Balor to him either in all honesty)

Brock isn't the guy you hand up and comers to for him to break in half - but WWE don't do logic very well.

I honestly think some of the Brock matches get booked because, on paper, they should be classics. Brock is still able to produce great matches when he wants (And that’s one of the important details, when he wants. If he doesn’t, he will phone it in). But, when it comes to putting the match together, this is WWE booking, so Brock has to be the beast, final boss style character. They only seem to be able to book that match in one way, and that’s a squash.

Where that changes is in the likes of his match with Bryan, in which Brock turns up and works with the person to go against that mold and tell a great story while still keeping Brock as that “final boss”. If that was the approach then the Ricochet match could have been something we’d probably still be talking about.

weareallmarks

High profile companies??? He has only been in 1 high profile company, which is the one he currently is employed by. Noone outside of forums knows who pwg etc etc etc is.... They are not high profile. OTT outdraw PWG .........

AS for your second point, I had said he either has no personality or he isnt allowed show any. I said that. He hasnt shown personality so far in his career. Superhero landings and flips, which are great, do not = personality / charisma.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

Wrestling isn't real is a pretty strange take to come at me with. Point of the accomplishments paragraph is to demonstrate that a range of high profile companies have trusted him in big spots, often big drawing spots, and to show with some of them (first gaijin Dream Gate run, best flyer of the 2010's) just how exceptional a talent he is.

2nd point. Nobody in WWE shows personality. Everyone delivers their weird WWE speak lines in the same cadence because that's what they are thought to do, everyone does their same overly choreographed entrance the same every night, unless you're put in a spot where you have to react to something emotional (and they're told to dial it up to 11) nobody shows any characteristic a regular human being could possibly empathise with.

3rd point and I hate to be that guy but honestly from your comment it sounds like you've never seen Ricochet outside of the confines of WWE.

LineOfBeauty

weareallmarks wrote: »

High profile companies??? He has only been in 1 high profile company, which is the one he currently is employed by. Noone outside of forums knows who pwg etc etc etc is.... They are not high profile. OTT outdraw PWG .........

AS for your second point, I had said he either has no personality or he isnt allowed show any. I said that. He hasnt shown personality so far in his career. Superhero landings and flips, which are great, do not = personality / charisma.

I mean it depends entirely on context doesn't it? In regards pro wrestling when compared to major sports ratings then WWE barely ranks as major.

In the context of pro wrestling, which is basically the context I'm permanently speaking in, PWG was a big company. It's been the major indie of the 2010's, the final landing spot before you sign elsewhere and the influence of the PWG crew is felt throughout Pro Wrestling from Steen/Generico, to the Young Bucks and the formation of AEW and the working style of PWG which has come across around the world to the point where the best NXT Takeover shows were basically knock off PWG shows. There's not an argument to be had over the influence of PWG in modern wrestling.

I really don't know how anyone could possibly watch his 2011 feud with Pac, or his rivalry with Ospreay and come away with the take "Ricochet has no charisma" that to me is astounding. Like I said, not the world's greatest mic guy, but he's got great physical charisma and a look that jumps off the screen.

Anyway, looks like he's staying in WWE.

beakerjoe

NJPW. Surely they are considered high profile.

I also know what PWG is and Im sure many do here, its not exactly a big secret.

He showed a fair bit of personality in NJPW. Nothing major though and he isnt in a position to cut promos on Japan. So its a fair comment to say he hasnt had a fair shake of showing how much personality he has in his locker .

weareallmarks

In wrestling context pwg is not a big company. Internet forums are a tiny % of wrestling fans. Most casuals have no idea what a pwg is or a bola ......
Major indie isnt a real thing. You cant be major and be an indie. If it was football, PWG would be a division 1 team. The final landing spot? The lads who went from PWG to wwe and main evented a big show are................ well there was.......eh.........
PWG influence? Come on! The first thing they are told when signed is to NOT DO anything they did in pwg.......... not exactly influencial

It is like art, you like what you like and thats great.
If he had the things you say he has, he would be a millionaire. He would be a main event. He wouldnt be seen as fodder.......
HE would be better leaving and starting again

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

I mean it depends entirely on context doesn't it? In regards pro wrestling when compared to major sports ratings then WWE barely ranks as major.

In the context of pro wrestling, which is basically the context I'm permanently speaking in, PWG was a big company. It's been the major indie of the 2010's, the final landing spot before you sign elsewhere and the influence of the PWG crew is felt throughout Pro Wrestling from Steen/Generico, to the Young Bucks and the formation of AEW and the working style of PWG which has come across around the world to the point where the best NXT Takeover shows were basically knock off PWG shows. There's not an argument to be had over the influence of PWG in modern wrestling.

I really don't know how anyone could possibly watch his 2011 feud with Pac, or his rivalry with Ospreay and come away with the take "Ricochet has no charisma" that to me is astounding. Like I said, not the world's greatest mic guy, but he's got great physical charisma and a look that jumps off the screen.

Anyway, looks like he's staying in WWE.

LineOfBeauty

beakerjoe wrote: »

NJPW. Surely they are considered high profile.

I also know what PWG is and Im sure many do here, its not exactly a big secret.

He showed a fair bit of personality in NJPW. Nothing major though and he isnt in a position to cut promos on Japan. So its a fair comment to say he hasnt had a fair shake of showing how much personality he has in his locker .

NJPW for sure, and his work in the Junior ranks was fantastic, he was over in a big way with the NJPW crowd, listen to the crowd reactions for his Best of the Super Juniors 2013 the guy is over big time. Also if you watched his NEVER Trios reign with Tanahashi and Taguchi, he shows a really fun side to his personality too during that run.

Then there's the Dragon Gate stuff, by the time he gets his Dream Gate run, he's the top gaijin in the company, he's trusted at the top of the card in Japan's 2nd biggest company, a company which is far more storyline heavy than your other Puro companies, and he kills it. In what world can that guy not have some form of charisma? That's mind boggling to me.

weareallmarks

Mind boggling?

It is ok that we disagree. Remember that forums mean nothing in the big picture of wrestling fans. It is about 3%. IF it meant more he would get massive reactions. He doesnt because forums mean nothing.

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

NJPW for sure, and his work in the Junior ranks was fantastic, he was over in a big way with the NJPW crowd, listen to the crowd reactions for his Best of the Super Juniors 2013 the guy is over big time. Also if you watched his NEVER Trios reign with Tanahashi and Taguchi, he shows a really fun side to his personality too during that run.

Then there's the Dragon Gate stuff, by the time he gets his Dream Gate run, he's the top gaijin in the company, he's trusted at the top of the card in Japan's 2nd biggest company, a company which is far more storyline heavy than your other Puro companies, and he kills it. In what world can that guy not have some form of charisma? That's mind boggling to me.

beakerjoe

weareallmarks wrote: »

Mind boggling?

It is ok that we disagree. Remember that forums mean nothing in the big picture of wrestling fans. It is about 3%. IF it meant more he would get massive reactions. He doesnt because forums mean nothing.

Firstly were are you pulling that stat from?

Also when you mention that most fans dont know what PWG is, I assume most fans on this forum have at least heard it or BOLA.

We are the ones discussing it and Id wager most wrestling fans visit some sort of forum, whether its reddit, Twitter, Meltzers site or in our country here.

Its fair game to site his work in PWG, Dragon Gate or LU even if they arent mainstream.

Alas it is ok to disagree if you dont think hes got it, thats not a wild take. I personally disagree, and to be fair Im probably in the minority. Im not saying he is the next Rock or Austin in terms of global super star, but he can be a perfectly fine upper mid card talent if used right as well as the occasional main eventer. I might even stretch that he could be a main eventer in Japan. Hes certainly got the chops inside the ring.

weareallmarks

MAte my entire point is that people are assuming because this forum is full that you / us / we are the majority of wrestling fans. We are not we are tiny. Most people who go to a show in the 3 arena etc dont know what boards is dont know what the observer is and really dont care.

The proof of this is that if forums counted for more people like ricochet would be millionaires. would be main events. He isnt because forums are not.

Most people at an arena have no idea what pwg is and think bola is a disease not a tournament.

Alot of us in this and other forums think a bit too much of ourselves.

But at the end of the day, if you like ricochet and see charisma, then you are correct. If you dont see anything in him, you are also correct.

Lets move on

beakerjoe wrote: »

Firstly were are you pulling that stat from?

Also when you mention that most fans dont know what PWG is, I assume most fans on this forum have at least heard it or BOLA.

We are the ones discussing it and Id wager most wrestling fans visit some sort of forum, whether its reddit, Twitter, Meltzers site or in our country here.

Its fair game to site his work in PWG, Dragon Gate or LU even if they arent mainstream.

Alas it is ok to disagree if you dont think hes got it, thats not a wild take. I personally disagree, and to be fair Im probably in the minority. Im not saying he is the next Rock or Austin in terms of global super star, but he can be a perfectly fine upper mid card talent if used right as well as the occasional main eventer. I might even stretch that he could be a main eventer in Japan. Hes certainly got the chops inside the ring.

LineOfBeauty

weareallmarks wrote: »

In wrestling context pwg is not a big company. Internet forums are a tiny % of wrestling fans. Most casuals have no idea what a pwg is or a bola ......
Major indie isnt a real thing. You cant be major and be an indie. If it was football, PWG would be a division 1 team. The final landing spot? The lads who went from PWG to wwe and main evented a big show are................ well there was.......eh.........
PWG influence? Come on! The first thing they are told when signed is to NOT DO anything they did in pwg.......... not exactly influencial

It is like art, you like what you like and thats great.
If he had the things you say he has, he would be a millionaire. He would be a main event. He wouldnt be seen as fodder.......
HE would be better leaving and starting again

So let's do a quick run through of the indie landscape that existed from probably 2011-2019. If your an American talent this is your most likely route to the top. You work your local shows, very regional stuff. Through talent and connection you might get to a mid level indie in your local region, AAW for example in Illinois would be an upper to mid level, if you impress there you get a shot in a Gabe company and then going well you end up in PWG. That's super simplified, and regionality plays a big factor in it too but basically the final two steps for years were the Gabe promotion where guys would season and polish their work, and then PWG is the finishing school. Again that's not even a debate, that's just what the landscape was at the time.

Some PWG alumni for your consideration:

Kenny Omega (AEW World Champion and possibly the best pro wrestler of his generation). Sammy Guevara, Adam Cole, Akira Tozawa, Austin Aries, Bandido, Brian Cage, Cesaro, Cima, Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards, Drew Gulak, Fenix, Jeff Cobb, Johnny Gargano, Chris Hero, Keith Lee, Kevin Owens, Kyle O'Reilly, The Briscoes, The Young Bucks, Michael Elgin, Nigel McGuinness, Penta El Zero, Rich Swann, Ricochet, Roddy Strong, Sami Zayn, Sami Callahan, Shingo Takagi, Tommaso Ciampa, Walter, Will Ospreay.

I'm only including guys on that list who worked significant matches in PWG too, so not just throwing on people who had a few random throwaway matches.

AEW is built by PWG guys and the ring style mirrors that. I honestly don't know how you can watch a PWG show, then an NXT Takeover from a certain era and not notice that the style of match is largely the same with a few differences to work in WWE. How you can't see that the likes of Cole/Ricochet was not a match that basically came directly from Reseda, I don't know. Again, I'll have to say it, how much PWG, or Ricochet, have you actually seen?

The last paragraph is pointless given that WWE's star making machine largely has little/nothing to do with actual pro wrestling ability, charisma or anything outside of who Vince likes and who Vince doesn't like. It's a pointless debate.

LineOfBeauty

weareallmarks wrote: »

Mind boggling?

It is ok that we disagree. Remember that forums mean nothing in the big picture of wrestling fans. It is about 3%. IF it meant more he would get massive reactions. He doesnt because forums mean nothing.

But the point is that he did get massive reactions and was massively over in prominent positions of big companies (again in a wrestling context) so yes, mind boggling.

Agent Coulson

I would consider NJPW a very high profile wrestling company.

Omackeral

weareallmarks wrote: »

Most people at an arena have no idea what pwg is and think bola is a disease not a tournament.

I laughed

Agent Coulson

Dave reporting today that Rick O Shea signed a new 5 year deal in 2019 when he moved up to the main roster from NXT.


So looks like he won't be leaving anytime soon unless Vince future endeavors him.

beakerjoe

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Dave reporting today that Rick O Shea signed a new 5 year deal in 2019 when he moved up to the main roster from NXT.


So looks like he won't be leaving anytime soon unless Vince future endeavors him.

So hes locked in for 5 years..... why build him up to bury him.

Again one week hes feuding with Brock, his next match he jobs to Riddick who the fcuking hell are you Moss?

Makes zero sense. Is it the WWE 'method' of breaking you down or testing you before building you back up?

LineOfBeauty

beakerjoe wrote: »

So hes locked in for 5 years..... why build him up to bury him.

Again one week hes feuding with Brock, his next match he jobs to Riddick who the fcuking hell are you Moss?

Makes zero sense. Is it the WWE 'method' of breaking you down or testing you before building you back up?

It's a futile exercise analysing WWE booking. It's the daily whims of an octogenarian, and for at least the last couple of years it's been largely incoherent nonsense.

weareallmarks

We dont agree. You think someone has charisma, I dont. Its very simple and not problematic. I know the story, I know how this works.

You think that indie promotions that struggle to break 400 in ticket sales (not comps) are top level promotions. You think that internet forums make up for more of the audience than it really does. Thats grand.

PWG is not major, survey (post vax) the next wwe show in the arena and see who knows what. You place massive importance on places like PWG but when they get signed they are told to do the opposite. Steen/bryan are the 2 name that has worked through that system you mention and fair play to them, it is also because they do far far less than he used to and has let even more of their personality out.

Ricochet (this example) has done less in terms of move while not allowing any personality through. Again, that could be because he doesnt have any or is not allowed to. Leaving and going somewhere else would show which of those 2.

Again, Gabe, means nothing outside of a forum.

Kenny Omega, would ya shtoppppp. Very athletic, very impressive. But this isnt just about what they do in the ring. What annoys him, what upsets him? Why should I care about him? That applies to most of aew. What annoys the young bucks? Why are they grown ups dressed like a macho man rip off? Why do they do the too sweet thing from the 90's? Devitt started that and showed massive skill / charisma and guts to find his own way.

Look, this is an interesting conversation, but we wont agree. Thats ok.

LEts move on.
Main thing is, enjoy what you enjoy and buy plenty of tshirts

LineOfBeauty wrote: »

So let's do a quick run through of the indie landscape that existed from probably 2011-2019. If your an American talent this is your most likely route to the top. You work your local shows, very regional stuff. Through talent and connection you might get to a mid level indie in your local region, AAW for example in Illinois would be an upper to mid level, if you impress there you get a shot in a Gabe company and then going well you end up in PWG. That's super simplified, and regionality plays a big factor in it too but basically the final two steps for years were the Gabe promotion where guys would season and polish their work, and then PWG is the finishing school. Again that's not even a debate, that's just what the landscape was at the time.

Some PWG alumni for your consideration:

Kenny Omega (AEW World Champion and possibly the best pro wrestler of his generation). Sammy Guevara, Adam Cole, Akira Tozawa, Austin Aries, Bandido, Brian Cage, Cesaro, Cima, Daniel Bryan, Davey Richards, Drew Gulak, Fenix, Jeff Cobb, Johnny Gargano, Chris Hero, Keith Lee, Kevin Owens, Kyle O'Reilly, The Briscoes, The Young Bucks, Michael Elgin, Nigel McGuinness, Penta El Zero, Rich Swann, Ricochet, Roddy Strong, Sami Zayn, Sami Callahan, Shingo Takagi, Tommaso Ciampa, Walter, Will Ospreay.

I'm only including guys on that list who worked significant matches in PWG too, so not just throwing on people who had a few random throwaway matches.

AEW is built by PWG guys and the ring style mirrors that. I honestly don't know how you can watch a PWG show, then an NXT Takeover from a certain era and not notice that the style of match is largely the same with a few differences to work in WWE. How you can't see that the likes of Cole/Ricochet was not a match that basically came directly from Reseda, I don't know. Again, I'll have to say it, how much PWG, or Ricochet, have you actually seen?

The last paragraph is pointless given that WWE's star making machine largely has little/nothing to do with actual pro wrestling ability, charisma or anything outside of who Vince likes and who Vince doesn't like. It's a pointless debate.

J. Marston

He did himself no favours in the Brock feud. Tweeting how he "doesn't care if he loses because he's winning at life". At least put a little effort into building the match. Why should people care about him if he's not arsed?

beakerjoe

J. Marston wrote: »

He did himself no favours in the Brock feud. Tweeting how he "doesn't care if he loses because he's winning at life". At least put a little effort into building the match. Why should people care about him if he's not arsed?

I highly doubt Vince isnt aware of what Ricochet tweets. Nor does he care.

LineOfBeauty

weareallmarks wrote: »

We dont agree. You think someone has charisma, I dont. Its very simple and not problematic. I know the story, I know how this works.

You think that indie promotions that struggle to break 400 in ticket sales (not comps) are top level promotions. You think that internet forums make up for more of the audience than it really does. Thats grand.

PWG is not major, survey (post vax) the next wwe show in the arena and see who knows what. You place massive importance on places like PWG but when they get signed they are told to do the opposite. Steen/bryan are the 2 name that has worked through that system you mention and fair play to them, it is also because they do far far less than he used to and has let even more of their personality out.

Ricochet (this example) has done less in terms of move while not allowing any personality through. Again, that could be because he doesnt have any or is not allowed to. Leaving and going somewhere else would show which of those 2.

Again, Gabe, means nothing outside of a forum.

Kenny Omega, would ya shtoppppp. Very athletic, very impressive. But this isnt just about what they do in the ring. What annoys him, what upsets him? Why should I care about him? That applies to most of aew. What annoys the young bucks? Why are they grown ups dressed like a macho man rip off? Why do they do the too sweet thing from the 90's? Devitt started that and showed massive skill / charisma and guts to find his own way.

Look, this is an interesting conversation, but we wont agree. Thats ok.

LEts move on.
Main thing is, enjoy what you enjoy and buy plenty of tshirts

You can think someone does or doesn't have charisma, but I've given you examples of Ricochet being a draw in companies and you've told me "all he does is flip" do you see the discrepancy there? How many non charismatic wrestlers are draws?

And you seem to either not acknowledge or are just unaware of the influence of such companies. Especially when talking about Ricochet, a wrestler who came along during the super-indie phase of pro wrestling it absolutely applies. Even debating the influence of PWG or Gabe's companies (ROH up to until 2008, DGUSA, Evolve) imagine even trying to debate the influence of those companies on the major American or Japanese companies? That's not a case of agree or disagree, that's like the most given thing imaginable.

I was gonna do a super long post, but before that, because you've avoided answering this each time, what have you watched outside of WWE? Because, and I'm not being horrible, having a debate with someone on the influence of those companies who has never watched those companies is completely pointless.

RollieFingers

Impact have announced Alex Shelley is out of the Hard to Kill main event, replaced by Moose!

montyrebel

does it slightly annoy anyone else that weareallmarks types above the post he is quoting and not below it, or is it just me?

The White Wolf

RollieFingers wrote: »

Impact have announced Alex Shelley is out of the Hard to Kill main event, replaced by Moose!

Wonder what was the issue....I was only thinking the other day everything crossed that Impact can get to Hard to Kill with their main event intact given the alleged virus breakouts across companies.

Omackeral

montyrebel wrote: »

does it slightly annoy anyone else that weareallmarks types above the post he is quoting and not below it, or is it just me?

It's a slow burn to a face turn though, wait and see. Loads of build up and then *boom*, massively popular post with the text on top. Psychology 101

jface187

montyrebel wrote: »

does it slightly annoy anyone else that weareallmarks types above the post he is quoting and not below it, or is it just me?

The one that annoys me the most is when someone just posts a link to a wrestling website, so you have to click on it to find out what's it's all about and you get a load of spam ads.

TimesArrow

https://twitter.com/wrestlecritic/status/1350170942253768705?s=21

Poor form out of Ricochet here