MPs just put a gun to DUP's head

gmisk

blanch152 wrote: »

To most people, SSM and abortion rank as more important issues than a petty squabble over the difference between a Minority Languages Act and an Irish Languages Act, or how a grubby scheme went wrong, but you are entitled to say that they are more important.

For me, these actions in the UK remove all excuses not to reconvene Stormont later this year.

I agree about SSM and abortion likely being more important issues.....but a "grubby scheme" is rather downplaying the cash for ash disaster which will possibly cost 500 million, a lot of questions to answer there, why was the scheme changed from other parts of the UK?

Also a lot of the indications seem to be that the majority of the people that piled in were in her constituency and DUP members.
Remember concerns were raised in 2013 and 2014 but she let it trundle on! In fact she seemed to intervene to prevent its closure

Chiparus

Larbre34 wrote: »

They've a funny way of showing it.

And of course they are, and the party always has been. Abomination is their favourite word.

Not all the party is.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-first-gay-candidate-elected-in-northern-ireland-local-elections-1.3879770

gmisk

Chiparus wrote: »

Not all the party is.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dup-s-first-gay-candidate-elected-in-northern-ireland-local-elections-1.3879770

Ah come on now, you know the saying one swallow doesnt make a summer?
Its a bit like those two gay eejits that were wheeled out at every opportunity during the marriage referendum.


She was happy to tow the party line when it came to being anti same sex marriage (bizarrely - ah sure why would someone want equal rights)...but even with that she got dogs abuse from her own party....which was born out of and still has extremely strong ties to the free Presbyterian religion...

Dyr

Ten of Swords wrote: »

The religious conservatives will be doing the sad burning The DUP don't speak for the entire Unionist community

Every election result in the north calls buls**t on that claim, they speak for the vast majority of 'em.

pinkyeye

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Wonder what Susan Anne White thinks of this, she unsuccessfully ran for election in Omagh a few years ago. Her platform was religion and traditional family values, and she wanted to criminalize homosexuality and bring back capital punishment.

She opined on her blog that the DUP were too soft in her opinion. She rage quit her blog when the 8th was repealed and she's no fan of Varadkar!

She must be having a really bad day today. Outrage overload :mad:

I'm surprised she's against Islam because all of the above fit in with Sharia law.

ohnonotgmail

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

it is very humid today and it hasn't been a great summer so maybe that is god punishing us for passing both referendums.

Reminded me of this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/37116661/us-pastor-who-believes-floods-are-gods-punishment-flees-flooded-home

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

To most people, SSM and abortion rank as more important issues than a petty squabble over the difference between a Minority Languages Act and an Irish Languages Act, or how a grubby scheme went wrong, but you are entitled to say that they are more important.

For me, these actions in the UK remove all excuses not to reconvene Stormont later this year.

Always funny to read one of the site's main partitionist voices downplay or dictate what people should find 'important' in their lives.

Mongfinder General

So if the DUP didn't want abortion or same sex marriage introduced in the North, why didn't they threaten The Tories with a vote of no confidence?

Melanchthon

blanch152 wrote: »

The ramifications of this are multi-faceted.

On the surface, and certainly in the shorter term, it looks like a kick in the face to the DUP, cue much rejoicing from the bigots on the other side to them.

However, the medium-term implications are less clear. There will be many in the DUP secretly glad that the SSM and abortion issues are off the table. That will leave the Irish Language Act and SF posturing on Arlene Foster as the main issues preventing the re-establishment of Stormont. Will SF die in the ditches for these principles and stand idly by once again when the well-being and welfare of the ordinary people of Northern Ireland are at stake in a potential hard Brexit?

A further complication will be that regardless of the implications and outcomes, there will be a cohort of unionists happy with the imposition of direct rule. All in all, this move will make things interesting

Yeah I am not sure that this is as big a win for SF as this thread makes out.

Leaving aside Gay marriage which I would imagine would pass, the abortion thing will be tricky.
Northern Ireland is more conservative than the Republic of Ireland and Britain, and British abortion law is significantly more liberal than that introduced in 2018, I wouldn't have bet on the British act would have passed in Ireland in 2018, 16 weeks is much more easy sell than 24.
The SF voting demographic is less progressive than the Republic and even in the Republic there is a good argument that SF have been hit by being seen as too progressive.

Does anybody have polling on views on the Irish language other than this source.
http://www.northernslant.com/what-do-people-think-about-an-irish-language-act-results-from-lucidtalks-latest-poll/

I can imagine things like signs being dual lingual is popular among nationalists and less controversial among more moderate unionists, but what about the practicalities of the idea of the use of Irish for government and police, having all the cops being like the Garda having a requirement to be competent Irish would exclude most of the population nationalist and unionist, in terms of government stuff the Republic likely spends millions translating documents that are never requested in Irish and the rate of Irish language competency is much higher in the South.
Maybe things have changed in recent years but even in Catholic schools uptake was low, found a figure that less than 2000 take it for GCSE so I dont think it has.

Basically Cash for Ash is the big deal in my view and what SF need to focus on.

klaaaz

There is no requirement proposal in an Irish language act for PSNI recruits to be able to speak Irish, that's scaremongering nonsense. The request for Irish language recognition is in line with the Welsh language benefits. I'd agree that the abortion rights is trickier as considerable numbers of both sides of the divide up north still have conservative values resulting from the bad influence of religion interfering with people's rights.

Faugheen

Mongfinder General wrote: »

So if the DUP didn't want abortion or same sex marriage introduced in the North, why didn't they threaten The Tories with a vote of no confidence?

Because the DUP know that they have as much to lose as the Tories.

This is the only bit of power they have. A no confidence motion = general election, and they won't be let anywhere near the position they're in now.

Loafing Oaf

Mongfinder General wrote: »

So if the DUP didn't want abortion or same sex marriage introduced in the North, why didn't they threaten The Tories with a vote of no confidence?

Cos they'll sure as hell get them under PM Corbyn:p:p

Ten of Swords

The DUP agreed a lot of infrastructure projects in NI in exchange for their coalition, I think the media at the time reported nearly £2 billion which turned out to be not entirely correct but regardless, if the DUP pull the rug out from under them they can kiss all those projects goodbye

Melanchthon

klaaaz wrote: »

There is no requirement proposal in an Irish language act for PSNI recruits to be able to speak Irish, that's scaremongering nonsense. The request for Irish language recognition is in line with the Welsh language benefits. I'd agree that the abortion rights is trickier as considerable numbers of both sides of the divide up north still have conservative values resulting from the bad influence of religion interfering with people's rights.

I have never actually seen a proper drawn out draft of the proposed language act, does anybody have a link? Can't find anything more than bullet points on google so going of this Journal article.

The use of Irish in courts, in the Assembly and for use by state bodies including the police

https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-language-act-explainer-3851417-Feb2018/

edit: I am not opposed to a language act at all, even if its mainly symbolic in the north symbolism is important but the last thing NI needs is more ineffective state spending its at a ridiculous level already.

Mongfinder General

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Cos they'll sure as hell get them under PM Corbyn:p:p

No chance of him getting elected prime minister. More likely they'd be dealing with Johnson and Farage.

steddyeddy

Mongfinder General wrote: »

No chance of him getting elected prime minister. More likely they'd be dealing with Johnson and Farage.

I'm guessing it will be Lib Dems. No way people would tolerate Boris and people forget Farage was never elected.

steddyeddy

gmisk wrote: »

I agree about SSM and abortion likely being more important issues.....but a "grubby scheme" is rather downplaying the cash for ash disaster which will possibly cost 500 million, a lot of questions to answer there, why was the scheme changed from other parts of the UK?

Also a lot of the indications seem to be that the majority of the people that piled in were in her constituency and DUP members.
Remember concerns were raised in 2013 and 2014 but she let it trundle on! In fact she seemed to intervene to prevent its closure

We could ask Arlene's husband Brian, a farmer in Fermenagh.

Loafing Oaf

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm guessing it will be Lib Dems. No way people would tolerate Boris and people forget Farage was never elected.

Lib Dems the largest party?:eek: Big call...

Markcheese

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Lib Dems the largest party?:eek: Big call...

Its unlikely, if only because of the UK first past the post system, many would see voting anything but Labour or Conservative as a wasted vote,
Mind you if Labour implodes either before or during the election, and either the brexit party does well (they'll canabilise tory leads) , or the tories go harder brexit (alienating the tory remainers), you could witness a total change,
Lib dem / Labour coalition...

Chiparus

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Sinn Fein have campaigned for same sex marriage in NI for a long time and when the health ministry came under Sinn Fein control they reversed the lifetime ban on MSM blood donors.

Guess we will have to see how this plays out, if Stormont does start up before October 21st the DUP will have this blocked immediately with a petition of concern

The SF aim for the pink and feminist unionist vote is now dead in the water.

The alliance was mopping this up anyhow.

There will be little opposition to this from the DUP leadership.

Melanchthon

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm guessing it will be Lib Dems. No way people would tolerate Boris and people forget Farage was never elected.

Seriously look outside the academia bubble your in! The Brexit party is generally polling higher than the Lib Dems, 21% vs 18℅ according to the latest BritainElects

Phoebas

Melanchthon wrote: »

Seriously look outside the academia bubble your in! The Brexit party is generally polling higher than the Lib Dems, 21% vs 18℅ according to the latest BritainElects

Polling numbers are one thing, but translating that into seats is another thing entirely.

I don't know about the Lib Dems becoming the largest party, but they do have the advantage of having an established party with everything that goes with it; a set of established policies, people with experience in government at different levels and a party machine that can get out and manage their vote.

The Brexit party are likely to overperform in second order elections (as a protest vote) and underperform in a GE.

realdanbreen

steddyeddy wrote: »

We could ask Arlene's husband Brian, a farmer in Fermenagh.

Best leave it until after the weekend though, they have bonfires to admire and marches to attend.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

There's a part of me that's saddened at issues so important in people's lives being used as trolololol political footballs, to score points, save face, force action. That people might be able to get help for a crisis pregnancy or marry their soul mate not because the society they were living in decided that was the right thing to do or just noticed "actually what time is it, oh my God it's half past 2019!" but because one of the most fractious, grandstanding, politically incompetent Houses of Parliament ever decided they had had enough of the nonsense in NI. Kind of sad really.

However there's a much bigger part of me that's laughing heartily.

Loafing Oaf

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

IMO the muted reaction to this so far shows how far last year's referendum has taken a lot of the heat out of the abortion issue across the island. So far, there's been a desultory handful of posts about it on politics.ie, whereas if this had happened five years ago the place would be in uproar all evening with denunciations of baby-murdering Brits...

Even clearer demonstration of this, Irish Times editorial on the story has yet to attract a single comment
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/the-irish-times-view-on-marriage-and-abortion-change-is-coming-in-the-north-1.3952693

Imreoir2

Melanchthon wrote: »

I can imagine things like signs being dual lingual is popular among nationalists and less controversial among more moderate unionists, but what about the practicalities of the idea of the use of Irish for government and police, having all the cops being like the Garda having a requirement to be competent Irish would exclude most of the population nationalist and unionist, in terms of government stuff the Republic likely spends millions translating documents that are never requested in Irish and the rate of Irish language competency is much higher in the South.

Why is there such a lack of accurate information when it comes to the reality of Irish language provisions? So many people seem to think any number of outlandish things are true when it comes to the language. It's like the bonkers things Brexiteers think are true about the EU. It is not true at all that all Gardaí must be competent Irish speakers. The Gardaí were taken to task a few years ago becuase nine of the ten gardaí stationed in the Donegall Gaeltacht had no Irish. Since then the Gardaí have tried to recruit 10% Irish speakers just so they can try to provide a basic service through Irish to the public.

As things stand right now, 99.06% of public service jobs in the south have no requirement to be able to speak a word of Irish. That statistic was recently found by research conducted by the language comissioner who has been trying to highlight for years that the existing system is not functional and the public services in Irish are almost entirely provided on a voluntary basis by staff and not on the basis of any workable policy.

s7ryf3925pivug

This is great. Conor McGinn for Prime Minister!

FrancieBrady

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Why is there such a lack of accurate information when it comes to the reality of Irish language provisions? So many people seem to think any number of outlandish things are true when it comes to the language. It's like the bonkers things Brexiteers think are true about the EU. It is not true at all that all Gardaí must be competent Irish speakers. The Gardaí were taken to task a few years ago becuase nine of the ten gardaí stationed in the Donegall Gaeltacht had no Irish. Since then the Gardaí have tried to recruit 10% Irish speakers just so they can try to provide a basic service through Irish to the public.

As things stand right now, 99.06% of public service jobs in the south have no requirement to be able to speak a word of Irish. That statistic was recently found by research conducted by the language comissioner who has been trying to highlight for years that the existing system is not functional and the public services in Irish are almost entirely provided on a voluntary basis by staff and not on the basis of any workable policy.

I don't think the wording of an 'Act' has been agreed and each party has it's own requirements, SF's being different to the SDLP's for instance. But those leading the campaign Conradh na Gaeilge produced a position paper before the local elections and asked parties for a response. The UUP, DUP and TUV refused to respond while all others did positively.
It isn't exactly Armageddon for anyone's culture when you read what they would like.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vzxfKsmqMr_6mak2f8pCS3hQDb-ou4kf/view

Imreoir2

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't think the wording of an 'Act' has been agreed and each party has it's own requirements, SF's being different to the SDLP's for instance. But those leading the campaign Conradh na Gaeilge produced a position paper before the local elections and asked parties for a response. The UUP, DUP and TUV refused to respond while all others did positively.
It isn't exactly Armageddon for anyone's culture when you read what they would like.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vzxfKsmqMr_6mak2f8pCS3hQDb-ou4kf/view

Yes, but much like the constant stream of articles about bendy bananas and regulations banning prawn cocktail crisps creating an atmospere where the British people are ready to believe just about any nonsence about the EU, people in Ireland north and south seem happy to believe and old codswallop when it comes to the Irish language.

Sunny Disposition

Wonder are the DUP happy enough with this, if the Commons brings in gay marriage for the North, it’ll mean they don’t have to confront their base and it’s ludicrous position.