Anyone been through the RTB Adjudication process.

Spanish Eyes

Had the hearing in RTB recently, tenants emotional and kicking off a bit with tears galore because the council will not give them the 4 bed house in a desirable suburb of South Dublin that they really really want. They are on RAS, and on the housing list so are not going to leave until they have alternative accommodation. That's obvious.

I am the executor of relative's estate. I was fkn gobsmacked at the sense of entitlement displayed by overholding tenants.

But anyway, seems it will take a while to evict, and the cost of same is not insignificant. But there we are.

Mad stuff when LLs are expected to house these people and nothing can be done to get them out apart from a tenant loaded process.

It was all very professional in RTB, but it is a tick boxing exercise. I suppose it will be at least twelve months if not more until I get tenants out in order to sell the property and distribute the proceeds to the beneficiaries. If I am lucky.

It is just not right really. But I suppose tenants see it one way, and LLs see it another way.

Quite a stressful process it has to be said.

Just wondered if anyone else on the LL side could give some insight. And thanks.

The Student

If its a RAS tenancy then your contract is with the council so you can sue the council.

Might be worth asking council if they want to buy the house.

Spanish Eyes

The Student wrote: »

If its a RAS tenancy then your contract is with the council so you can sue the council.

Might be worth asking council if they want to buy the house.

Sue them for what? The Council were not a party to RTB proceedings. They washed their hands of it completely, it is between LL and Tenant, they are just agents paying the rent. Very nice indeed.

I am probably a bit over invested at the moment, am trying to be rational. But it is not easy either.

The Student

If you have a RAS contract then the council are not just agents paying the rent. The council have the right to nominate who goes into your property.

Are you confusing this with a HAP tenancy.

The councils were actively removing themselves from RAS contracts specifically for the above reason. When RAS contracts were coming to an end the council were advising tenants the only option they had was to go on HAP (due to the increase in arrears between the council and the tenants) while the council was still liable for the full rent to the landlord.

Have you read the RAS contract? have you received any professional advice? You may be surprised if you send in a solicitors letter to the council advising them of their responsibility and the associated costs they will be liable for if the tenants do not vacate and an RTB ruling goes against them.

Dav010

The Student wrote: »

If its a RAS tenancy then your contract is with the council so you can sue the council.

Might be worth asking council if they want to buy the house.

This is incorrect, the tenancy contract is between the LL and tenant, not the Council. The Council acts only as an agent for the tenant to secure accommodation and pay rent.

The LL must register the tenancy with the RTB, the tenant being the party registered on the lease.


https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/social-housing/rental-accommodation-scheme/rental-accommodation-scheme-information-tenants

The Student

Dav010 wrote: »

This is incorrect, the tenancy contract is between the LL and tenant, not the Council. The Council acts only as an agent for the tenant to secure accommodation and pay rent.

The LL must register the tenancy with the RTB, the tenant being the party registered on the lease.


https://www.housing.gov.ie/housing/social-housing/rental-accommodation-scheme/rental-accommodation-scheme-information-tenants

As guarantor's of the rent the council will act on this. You are correct the tenancy is between the tenant and landlord but the council are guarantors for the rent and you can sue them accordingly for non payment of rent etc.

Different RAS contracts have different T&C's so I would not take the above as being the same for all RAS contracts. Also with RAS the council has a responsibility to find accommodation for the tenant.

It is not like the HAP where tenants are required to source their own accommodation.

Graham

The OP hasn't mentioned rent arrears

Claw Hammer

Welcome to RTB land which is full of Kafkaesque scenes funded by landlords, where the absurd becomes the normal and the normal the absurd.

Spanish Eyes

The council advised the tenants to overhold. They reiterated that to me also. Gobsmacked is the only word I have for this behaviour by them. However they continue to pay the rent which is something I suppose. Council have in effect washed their hands of the process as the issue is between LL and Tenant, they are not the LL on the rental agreement.

So I have to go through the RTB process, obtain a Determination Order, and apparently will more than likely have to enforce it. At that stage (council told me this), overholding tenants will be bumped up the list and the council will consider the tenants to be a special case because they are in danger of being homeless at that point.

I have sympathy with the tenants, they cannot get any accommodation until the legalities with RTB are concluded. They are not on HAP either as they are high on the housing list and would lose their place by going HAP.

I am just letting off a bit of steam here. I know it's a process and the wheels turn slowly. I am not the Landlord per se, but as executor I actually am now as I am acting for the deceased relative. Bit of a nightmare really.

I think it takes a minimum of twelve months to evict, if I am lucky. Just wondered about other people's experience of the process.

Thanks for reading anyway.

Claw Hammer

You should be able to get a adjudication hearing on in a few weeks with a decision shortly after that. The tenant won't appeal because it will cost €100. After that, it depends.

Spanish Eyes

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You should be able to get a adjudication hearing on in a few weeks with a decision shortly after that. The tenant won't appeal because it will cost €100. After that, it depends.

Thanks, had the adjudication hearing two weeks ago, so we will see what happens. I am expecting a Determination Order shortly (fingers crossed). If that goes in my favour, the issue that concerns me is how long the council will sit on its hands regarding re housing the tenants.

4ensic15

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Thanks, had the adjudication hearing two weeks ago, so we will see what happens. I am expecting a Determination Order shortly (fingers crossed). If that goes in my favour, the issue that concerns me is how long the council will sit on its hands regarding re housing the tenants.

They won't re-house the tenants until the sherrif contacts the tenants to tell them he is on the way. I know some people who, as soon as they got the determination order, hired a barrister to go straight to the District Court and get orders against the tenants.

Spanish Eyes

4ensic15 wrote: »

They won't re-house the tenants until the sherrif contacts the tenants to tell them he is on the way. I know some people who, as soon as they got the determination order, hired a barrister to go straight to the District Court and get orders against the tenants.

That's not what I wanted to hear, but I am not surprised. And will cost the estate thousands I suppose if that proves necessary.

TBH I don't want to see a family of five homeless. But surely it is not my problem. That is the injustice here. Government policy has ensured that the providers of accommodation for the Council are seen as the baddies when they need to get their property back.

At least I know what to expect, i.e. a long running saga here. It is just unreal.

However, it is early days and we shall see. But I think you may be right.

TSQ

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The council advised the tenants to overhold. They reiterated that to me also.
Thanks for reading anyway.

It’s about time someone took the councils and/or threshold etc to court over inciting tenants to overhold.. surely one would have a right to civil damages. I have heard so many similar tales in the accommodation fora. But of course a landlord would not qualify for free legal aid and would need very deep pockets to take them on.

Spanish Eyes

TSQ wrote: »

It’s about time someone took the councils and/or threshold etc to court over inciting tenants to overhold.. surely one would have a right to civil damages. I have heard so many similar tales in the accommodation fora. But of course a landlord would not qualify for free legal aid and would need very deep pockets to take them on.

Indeed, but the councils write nothing down ever. So there is no supporting documentation. It is all spoken. They are not stupid. And as you say, access to the law for those who do not qualify for legal aid is non existent due to costs. No foal no fee only applies to personal injury AFAIK. I don't want to go down that route anyway. Just making the point in agreement with you.

The council outlined to me the exact process verbally (of course).

Tenants will overhold.

You have to take a dispute to the RTB,

When a Determination is issued the tenant MAY be considered priority

If not, you have to go to Enforcement, and possibly Sheriff. The costs of Enforcement and Sheriff are down to me via the estate. Tenants pay nothing.

Unbelievable. But that's what is happening. Obviously Government policy is backing them up.

JustMe,K

Never ceases to amaze me that the tenants are entitled to more rights to a property than the owner is. Where do your beneficiaries stand in respect of taxes on the estate?

Claw Hammer

JustMe,K wrote: »

Never ceases to amaze me that the tenants are entitled to more rights to a property than the owner is. Where do your beneficiaries stand in respect of taxes on the estate?

The beneficiaries have to pay the taxes whether the house sells or not. If the pay late they will be hit with massive interest unless the Revenue can be persuaded to consider a new date of distribution.

Thoie

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Indeed, but the councils write nothing down ever. So there is no supporting documentation. It is all spoken. They are not stupid. And as you say, access to the law for those who do not qualify for legal aid is non existent due to costs. No foal no fee only applies to personal injury AFAIK. I don't want to go down that route anyway. Just making the point in agreement with you.

The council outlined to me the exact process verbally (of course).

Tenants will overhold.

You have to take a dispute to the RTB,

When a Determination is issued the tenant MAY be considered priority

If not, you have to go to Enforcement, and possibly Sheriff. The costs of Enforcement and Sheriff are down to me via the estate. Tenants pay nothing.

Unbelievable. But that's what is happening. Obviously Government policy is backing them up.

One thing I'd be doing is after these phone calls, write a letter/email to the person you spoke with outlining what was said.

"As per our phone conversation of xxx date and time, I just want to confirm that I have understood the situation correctly:
The tenants have been advised by your department to overhold..., I need to take a dispute to the RTB..." blah blah.

If you have an email address for the person you spoke to, send it that way, otherwise send it to them via registered post.

JustMe,K

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The beneficiaries have to pay the taxes whether the house sells or not. If the pay late they will be hit with massive interest unless the Revenue can be persuaded to consider a new date of distribution.

I thought so...it seems like everyones hands are tied here but if I was a beneficiary and I was hit with penalties and interest for something outside of my control I would be more than a little upset. Its madness.

Spanish Eyes

Thoie wrote: »

One thing I'd be doing is after these phone calls, write a letter/email to the person you spoke with outlining what was said.

"As per our phone conversation of xxx date and time, I just want to confirm that I have understood the situation correctly:
The tenants have been advised by your department to overhold..., I need to take a dispute to the RTB..." blah blah.

If you have an email address for the person you spoke to, send it that way, otherwise send it to them via registered post.

I have done this on a few occasions, but have never received a reply.

So just have to go with the verbal now.

There is no point in trying to get Councils to work with you, they have nowhere for RAS tenants to go to, so they will string it out as long as possible.

Remember, the issue of getting the tenants out is between me as executor and the tenants. Council will not get involved.

It is disheartening, but what can you do?

Spanish Eyes

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The beneficiaries have to pay the taxes whether the house sells or not. If the pay late they will be hit with massive interest unless the Revenue can be persuaded to consider a new date of distribution.

In one way the beneficiaries are fortunate. The will said the house should be sold and the proceeds distributed. Well to my mind, until the proceeds are distributed, the beneficiaries will not know how much to return for tax! But given there are a few of them, the tax burden will not be huge anyway.

Looking to me that if the house cannot be sold for a long while, the sale price may go down given the stasis in the housing market now, so that doesn't worry me particularly. Anyway, each beneficiary is responsible for their own tax return now. Wasn't always the case. So there are some positives!

Not many positives mind you. But the injustice of the council for all intents and purposes SQUATTING in relative's house is unbelievable.

4ensic15

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

In one way the beneficiaries are fortunate. The will said the house should be sold and the proceeds distributed. Well to my mind, until the proceeds are distributed, the beneficiaries will not know how much to return for tax! But given there are a few of them, the tax burden will not be huge anyway.

.

You should get some specialist tax advice. It is not the day that the beneficiaries get the cheque in their hand which is the trigger for the tax but the day they become entitled to the gift. If the date of death is taken as the day of distribution (it generally is) then the beneficiaries may have to assess the value of the house at the date of death and pay CAT on that amount and if the house sells for more later, pay CGT.

Spanish Eyes

4ensic15 wrote: »

You should get some specialist tax advice. It is not the day that the beneficiaries get the cheque in their hand which is the trigger for the tax but the day they become entitled to the gift. If the date of death is taken as the day of distribution (it generally is) then the beneficiaries may have to assess the value of the house at the date of death and pay CAT on that amount and if the house sells for more later, pay CGT.

Thanks 4ensic. I appreciate your warning!

I have checked with Revenue (even though the beneficiaries' tax is not my issue), they have told me that the Valuation Date will be the date the property is sold and the proceeds are known. I hope they are right, but I have informed all beneficiaries to get independent advice on this anyway. The executor is no longer liable for the tax of the beneficiaries, thankfully.

Am trying to do my duty as executor as best I can, but my god it is painful!

Thoie

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I have done this on a few occasions, but have never received a reply.

So just have to go with the verbal now.

There is no point in trying to get Councils to work with you, they have nowhere for RAS tenants to go to, so they will string it out as long as possible.

Remember, the issue of getting the tenants out is between me as executor and the tenants. Council will not get involved.

It is disheartening, but what can you do?

I'd still send the mail anyway. If it ever did come to a court case, the fact that they didn't respond to correct any "misapprehension" you may have might stand against them.

Spanish Eyes

I will go the RTB route. Awaiting the Determination Order now. Could be delayed due to the holiday season though.

It’s in the lap of the gods now. And the saga may not end even with an order either, so am bracing myself. The estate will have to bear the costs if it has to go to the sheriff for eviction. But hopefully not.

But who knows.

mrslancaster

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

In one way the beneficiaries are fortunate. The will said the house should be sold and the proceeds distributed. Well to my mind, until the proceeds are distributed, the beneficiaries will not know how much to return for tax! But given there are a few of them, the tax burden will not be huge anyway.

Looking to me that if the house cannot be sold for a long while, the sale price may go down given the stasis in the housing market now, so that doesn't worry me particularly. Anyway, each beneficiary is responsible for their own tax return now. Wasn't always the case. So there are some positives!

Not many positives mind you. But the injustice of the council for all intents and purposes SQUATTING in relative's house is unbelievable.

If the sale price of the house is higher than the probate valuation, cgt is due on the gain and paid from the estate before distribution to the beneficiaries. . The inheritance is subject to cat if it is over certain thresholds.