The glorious 12th

downcow

holyhead wrote: »

The problem with Bloody Sunday was it was state sponsored mass murder. All murder is wrong so not looking to point score.

I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

It just depends on where you are looking from

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That should have been the rule from the start downcow. It is why we are at this juncture now. And yet you still defend 40 year old actions your criminally negligent government eventually had to apologise unequivocally for.
There is a long way to go yet to try and balance the books.

If your aim is to attempt to agree to balance books in a contested society then you are on a hiding to nothing. Not a chance.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

They did not say it was wrong. Stick to facts

Unionism never apologies for anything. Admitting it shouldn’t have happened is as good as it gets. It was a disgusting to do by that band but not surprising.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

It just depends on where you are looking from

Ah shure why not exploit one sides grief and pain in order not to look coldly at something that was wrong from the day it happened.

Perhaps if your people turned a critical eye at those responsible for equality and fair governance?

Nobody's grief and pain is worse than others.

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

It just depends on where you are looking from

Joined the UDR then they made themselves a legitmate target.

holyhead

downcow wrote: »

I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

It just depends on where you are looking from

I appreciate your compliment. Thank you.

What happened on Bloody Sunday was wrong. It was the greatest recruitment tool ever for the IRA. It's Shane Paul O'Doherty's contention that the IRA engineered the circumstances that set up the killing of those murdered on Bloody Sunday. Be that as it may the State through the army killed it's own citizens. It then instigated a wash out of an investigation which cleared people clearly responsible for what happened. Decades later the truth finally emerges.

1. I'm not sure a State can ever be justified in killing it's own citizens.
2. It can never seek to defend those who acted illegally even on it's behalf.
3. It owes it's citizens the truth no matter the cost.

This is why Bloody Sunday is so profound in the Irish psyche. Certain killings strike a chord. Many informers were murdered by the IRA yet Jean McConville is the most prominent one that came back to haunt the IRA/SF.

Gerry Adams denial of ever being in the IRA is quite probably the greatest insult to the intelligence of the Irish people. It is O'Doherty's contention that Martin McGuinness never told the truth about his involvement in Bloody Sunday.

Now my point is state lies are worse than private lies. State murder is worse than private murder. The State theoretically represents the people, all the people. A private army represent it's members and supporters.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

Unionism never apologies for anything. Admitting it shouldn’t have happened is as good as it gets. It was a disgusting to do by that band but not surprising.

They didn’t say it shouldn’t have happened

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

If your aim is to attempt to agree to balance books in a contested society then you are on a hiding to nothing. Not a chance.

I said 'try to'.
If the outcome is (That most observers with a brain will agree) conclusive proof that the British were players in our conflict/war and ultimately responsible for what went up in flames, that is a good thing.

And we get there, by them dropping their fearful blocking of a Truth commission or dragging the truth out of them, kicking and screaming. It's up to them to take their pick.

downcow

holyhead wrote: »

I appreciate your compliment. Thank you.

What happened on Bloody Sunday was wrong. It was the greatest recruitment tool ever for the IRA. It's Shane Paul O'Doherty's contention that the IRA engineered the circumstances that set up the killing of those murdered on Bloody Sunday. Be that as it may the State through the army killed it's own citizens. It then instigated a wash out of an investigation which cleared people clearly responsible for what happened. Decades later the truth finally emerges.

1. I'm not sure a State can ever be justified in killing it's own citizens.
2. It can never seek to defend those who acted illegally even on it's behalf.
3. It owes it's citizens the truth no matter the cost.

This is why Bloody Sunday is so profound in the Irish psyche. Certain killings strike a chord. Many informers were murdered by the IRA yet Jean McConville is the most prominent one that came back to haunt the IRA/SF.

Gerry Adams denial of ever being in the IRA is quite probably the greatest insult to the intelligence of the Irish people. It is O'Doherty's contention that Martin McGuinness never told the truth about his involvement in Bloody Sunday.

Now my point is state lies are worse than private lies. State murder is worse than private murder. The State theoretically represents the people, all the people. A private army represent it's members and supporters.

I will accept that analysis as very reasonable. But don’t expect those who have lost their close family members to be as objective as me. They will probably struggle to accept the killing of their loved one as somehow not quite as odious as state killings.
I think it’s the attempt to use the pain of BS to try and rewrite who the main aggressors were is why unionists struggle with giving it quite the recognition it deserves - myself included.

holyhead

downcow wrote: »

I will accept that analysis as very reasonable. But don’t expect those who have lost their close family members to be as objective as me. They will probably struggle to accept the killing of their loved one as somehow not quite as odious as state killings.
I think it’s the attempt to use the pain of BS to try and rewrite who the main aggressors were is why unionists struggle with giving it quite the recognition it deserves - myself included.

It's not a competition to be fair. How would you feel if the Irish state gunned down 14 Unionists marching peacefully on the streets of Cork? Then lied about it claiming they were legitimate targets. Then 40 years later oops sorry we had no cause to shoot them. You can bet they'd be peeved on the Shankill.

munsterlegend

downcow wrote: »

They didn’t say it shouldn’t have happened

They said they weren’t aware what the band were wearing and understand the hurt caused. What exactly were they saying then? If marching next week would the apprentice boys invite that band again do you think?

Now unless you are a Neanderthal living under a rock the only purpose of wearing this in Derry of all cities was to cause offense. Thankfully the psni did the right thing.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

They will probably struggle to accept the killing of their loved one as somehow not quite as odious as state killings.

No death will be as odious as the death of your own loved one.

Would you stop using people in this odious way. To make cheap 'what themuns did was worse' points.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No death will be as odious as the death of your own loved one.

Would you stop using people in this odious way. To make cheap 'what themuns did was worse' points.

I was challenging that very position Thank you.

Fionn1952

downcow wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No death will be as odious as the death of your own loved one.

Would you stop using people in this odious way. To make cheap 'what themuns did was worse' points.

I was challenging that very position Thank you.

Sound, Down....what if those killed by state forces were your loved ones?

holyhead

Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?

citytillidie

holyhead wrote: »

Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?

St Patrick’s day parades are not about being better than your neighbours so no

janfebmar

downcow wrote: »

I get what you are saying and find your posts valuable.
But here’s the problem. If you are the mother of a young man who joined the udr because he wanted to protect his community and the ira lie in a hedge to shoot him in the back as he courts his young girlfriend while of duty then you see that as much worse than the killing of people out actively protesting.
If you are the mother of that little baby murdered by the ira in strabane then you think it was much more innocent than people who were killed while out protesting.
I’m not saying these should be compared. But I does really piss off many when those killed on BS are held up as more special and more wrong

It just depends on where you are looking from

Indeed. The murders which were planned weeks in advance, and which were planned to be murders and atrocities, were in my opinion worse than those which were not.

FrancieBrady

holyhead wrote: »

Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?

There are people here who think that just being 'offended' is enough to ban something. Like a parade or the Irish language.

It isn't.
`

munsterlegend

janfebmar wrote: »

Indeed. The murders which were planned weeks in advance, and which were planned to be murders and atrocities, were in my opinion worse than those which were not.

What complete nonsense. Murder is murder no matter what political opinion you were. If anything state murder is the worst as those who were actually supposed to protect its citizens in fact were the aggressors.

RobMc59

holyhead wrote: »

Should all Loyalist 12th of July Parades be discontinued as anachronistic and antagonistic towards the Catholic community. On that basis should St Patrick's Day Parades cease in Northern Ireland on similar grounds?

Any parade which is aimed at causing upset or seeks to goad others should be banned-that should also apply to bonfires(burning of flags and banners stopped)

janfebmar

The people who shot the 2 police people on Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday were not aggressors as well? Or the people who shot the garda in Adare?

FrancieBrady

Took a while but the excuser got here in the end^^^

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111010305&postcount=3369

gwalk

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Took a while but the excuser got here in the end^^^

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111010305&postcount=3369

Its almost as if the behaviour of certain posters is very predicatble or a pattern which is constantly repeating itself on this thread

medness

munsterlegend

janfebmar wrote: »

The people who shot the 2 police people on Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday were not aggressors as well? Or the people who shot the garda in Adare?

Who said they weren’t? It wasn’t the state responsible for those though was it?

Typically unionist answer to everything. In any other country unionism would be in government and be in charge as they have the majority votes. However we all know what happened. Power was abused and Westminster ignored it until they had no choice. That’s why you lot can’t be let rule outside of power sharing and will never again in the foreseeable.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are people here who think that just being 'offended' is enough to ban something. Like a parade or the Irish language.

It isn't.
`

Or a bonfire?

timthumbni

I see Londonderry headlines the news again this morning as the partner of the wee girl murdered by Irish republicans talks about the fear and grip of the local community these people have.

Horrible city altogether. Just look at the state of the MEP ffs.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There are people here who think that just being 'offended' is enough to ban something. Like a parade or the Irish language.

It isn't.
`

Never thought I’d say it about one of Francie posts but
Ditto. Spot on!

downcow

RobMc59 wrote: »

Any parade which is aimed at causing upset or seeks to goad others should be banned-that should also apply to bonfires(burning of flags and banners stopped)

Agreed

janfebmar

timthumbni wrote: »

I see Londonderry headlines the news again this morning as the partner of the wee girl murdered by Irish republicans talks about the fear and grip of the local community these people have.

Horrible city altogether. Just look at the state of the MEP ffs.

She should have resigned for dancing on the spot where the young protestant boy was murdered by Republicans, and for taking part in a parade where the same Republicans were glorified. I suppose what else fo people expect from SF.

munsterlegend

timthumbni wrote: »

I see Londonderry headlines the news again this morning as the partner of the wee girl murdered by Irish republicans talks about the fear and grip of the local community these people have.

Horrible city altogether. Just look at the state of the MEP ffs.

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/uk-northern-ireland-47679072

Loyalist scum wouldn’t you agree?