The glorious 12th

munsterlegend

blanch152 wrote: »

Criticising the British for only realising in 1939 that the Nazis were the bad guys is extremely hypocritical for someone defending the Irish position of never realising that the Nazis were the bad guys.

Nazi Germany was the most evil regime of the 20th century, and we sat on our hands, one of the most shameful acts of Irish history. In fact, some of us - Sean Russell - actively collaborated with and encouraged the Nazis.

The Brits only got involved to save themselves not for any greater noble cause. Same with USA or Russia. We were a tiny nation in the scheme of things and many Irish lives were saved by remaining neutral. It’s not a black and white issue.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Criticising the British for only realising in 1939 that the Nazis were the bad guys is extremely hypocritical for someone defending the Irish position of never realising that the Nazis were the bad guys.

Full on revisionism right there.

Nazi Germany was the most evil regime of the 20th century, and we sat on our hands, one of the most shameful acts of Irish history. In fact, some of us - Sean Russell - actively collaborated with and encouraged the Nazis.

Appeasement and feathering their nests while ignoring their responsibilities to an internationally binding Treaty was what encouraged the Nazi's.

In that context Russell opportunistic dalliance was small fry. A mistake that many made with far greater human consequences.

downcow

munsterlegend wrote: »

The Brits only got involved to save themselves not for any greater noble cause. Same with USA or Russia. We were a tiny nation in the scheme of things and many Irish lives were saved by remaining neutral. It’s not a black and white issue.

Shameful statement

blanch152

munsterlegend wrote: »

The Brits only got involved to save themselves not for any greater noble cause. Same with USA or Russia. We were a tiny nation in the scheme of things and many Irish lives were saved by remaining neutral. It’s not a black and white issue.

Yes, we stood idly by while the rest of Europe stood up to the Nazis.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Full on revisionism right there.

We remained neutral, we extended condolences on the death of Hitler. It is a shameful part of our history, all because the bigots in this country couldn't bring themselves to align with Britain when it was the right thing to do.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Appeasement and feathering their nests while ignoring their responsibilities to an internationally binding Treaty was what encouraged the Nazi's.

In that context Russell opportunistic dalliance was small fry. A mistake that many made with far greater human consequences.

Russell was a traitor, trying to bring this country directly under the influence of the Nazis. DeValera was a coward on the sidelines, but he didn't actively collaborate and seek the assistance of the Nazis.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, we stood idly by while the rest of Europe stood up to the Nazis.

No we didn't. We did as much as we could while remaining neutral.
Viewing it without taking into account the context of the times, (what we had been through and what was facing us as a fledgling nation) is just your usual peculiar Irish hat doffing, inferiority complex accepting bitter British criticism.

Criticism Churchill deployed to deflect from his own failings (and they were monumental in human cost) during the war.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No we didn't. We did as much as we could while remaining neutral.
Viewing it without taking into account the context of the times, (what we had been through and what was facing us as a fledgling nation) is just your usual peculiar Irish hat doffing, inferiority complex accepting bitter British criticism.

Criticism Churchill deployed to deflect from his own failings (and they were monumental in human cost) during the war.

You are spinning again Francie.

If we were helping the Allied cause quietly while remaining neutral (as you appear to claim) then doesn't that make Sean Russell even more of a traitor to this country as he was trying to help the Nazis.

The cognitive dissonance on this issue is at an all-time high.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You are spinning again Francie.

If we were helping the Allied cause quietly while remaining neutral (as you appear to claim) then doesn't that make Sean Russell even more of a traitor to this country as he was trying to help the Nazis.

The cognitive dissonance on this issue is at an all-time high.

Stop trying to cover your 'traitor' gaff blanch. Irish republicans were never 'loyal' to the British.

We didn't ally ourselves with Britain, we had no official part in the war. Just as we now help the US with Shannon.

Dev made a strategic decision to protect what we had as a fledgling nation and the hat doffers never forgave him.

Time to get over it as the British are once again asking us to amputate a limb to help them get to the upland pastures to round up unicorns. Hopefully Fine Gael will take a leaf out of Dev's book and think of Ireland first. Would that a few of you guys would too... for once.

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1163966336395034624?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1163966336395034624&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D2058007269%26page%3D22

citytillidie

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, we stood idly by while the rest of Europe stood up to the Nazis.

Really I can think of places much closer to Germany than Ireland who also stood by and did nothing

Dytalus

blanch152 wrote: »

We remained neutral, we extended condolences on the death of Hitler. It is a shameful part of our history, all because the bigots in this country couldn't bring themselves to align with Britain when it was the right thing to do.

We were right to remain neutral. Plenty of Irish went to fight in the British Army anyway, but if the State had declared war against Germany we'd have been instantly demolished. We didn't have anything even approaching the RAF to defend our island. Italy alone could have curbstomped us into ashes. The Luftwaffe could have leveled Ireland in a week unless the RAF was willing to defend us as fervently as they defended Britain. Would they have risked leaving their own homeland more open to bombings to defend us? Should they have been asked to given how desperate things were before Stalingrad and Pearl Harbour saw the tide begin to turn?

We could not have contributed in any way shape or form to the war effort outside of what limited actions we did perform - all of which were in favour of the allied forces (allied aircraft could use the Donegal air corridor, we returned allied pilots to Britain but kept Axis pilots here, our intelligence agencies co-operated extensively including the weather report used to give Overlord the go ahead, we allowed irish men to join the British Army). If such a war was to break out now, we'd be just as useless in open combat and likely a terrible liability to our allies. We can contribute manpower and nothing more, our military materiel is sorely lacking in quality and quantity (though our sniper teams are world renown, go team). We have no real way to transport our military overseas in any sizable deployment and we had even less ability to do so during World War 2.

Going to war with Germany would, at best, have been putting ourselves in the firing line and accomplishing nothing more than we accomplished anyway. "We're on your team guys, go get 'em...oh no we can't actually do anything so we'll just cheer from the bleachers" is arguably worse than staying out of it all together. At worst, it would have been the end of Ireland as a country.

But this is the problem with minor states like Ireland. We cannot, possibly ever, be in a position to contribute meaningfully even to our own defence against most concerted aggressors. Neutrality is selfish, yes, but it's also the only realistic option we have in defence.

This is not to excuse some of the awful actions our State did take. Even if many of them were normal or acceptable at the time. The Jewish community was ignored by our government (and by many governments at the time, it should be noted) when they asked for help. Our government (along with others, yet again) knew of the Holocaust as early as 1943 and while overt anti-semitism wasn't the norm (with some exceptions as there always is), there was a horrific apathy towards the persecution of Jewish people by Nazi Germany. Post-war Jewish refugees faced greater difficulty in seeking asylum than christian refugees.

This general disdain and apathy towards Jewish suffering was not uniquely Irish, and most nations did not truly regard Nazi Germany as the gold standard for 'evil' as we do now until after the discovery of the camps and the end of the war. That this viewpoint was held by other nations and was the 'norm' at the time does not at all make it okay (slavery was 'okay' once upon a time, imperialism was 'the norm', British and American concentration camps were whitewashed because they paled in comparison to German extermination camps, and racism was much more acceptable in the western world 100 years ago than it is now), but likewise it's unfair to accuse the Irish government of being uniquely callous when it comes to the Nazi's atrocities.

The states of the time went to war with Germany because of alliances and political reasons (communism, capitalism, and democracy vs fascism). They went to war because allowing Germany control over Europe guaranteed a hostile superpower on their border that had been imperialistic from its inception. They did not declare war to save those being slaughtered in the camps. Saying that they did is as inaccurate as saying that Germany's main motive for conquering Europe was to commit the Holocaust, rather than to expand Germany's power and empire.

ADDENDUM:

Russell was a traitor, trying to bring this country directly under the influence of the Nazis

I do agree with you on this. Even if his intention was a misguided attempt to get assistance for Ireland rather than being fueled out of actually agreeing with Nazi policies, the policy of the State at the time was neutrality. Engaging with any party in WW2 without the consent of the government went against that stance and is something I would count as treachery.

Granted the same argument could be made with our (under the table) dealings with the Allies, but it's hard to argue that a government (who allowed such dealings) can commit treason against itself.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop trying to cover your 'traitor' gaff blanch. Irish republicans were never 'loyal' to the British.

We didn't ally ourselves with Britain, we had no official part in the war. Just as we now help the US with Shannon.

Dev made a strategic decision to protect what we had as a fledgling nation and the hat doffers never forgave him.

Sean Russell attempted by illegal means to bring this country under the sphere of Nazi influence. That was treason.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Time to get over it as the British are once again asking us to amputate a limb to help them get to the upland pastures to round up unicorns. Hopefully Fine Gael will take a leaf out of Dev's book and think of Ireland first. Would that a few of you guys would too... for once.

I am actually people first, rather than any one nationality first. For that reason, Brexit is a bad idea, and I would prefer that Brexit not happen, even if it meant at least 200 years before there would be a border poll.

The welfare of ordinary people is most important, more important than whether Northern Ireland is under a UK flag or an Irish flag, and that means we should be pushing for an end to Brexit, rather than harping on about unity and border polls.

downcow

gwalk wrote: »

"A petrol bomb has been thrown by a group of young people during disorder in the Oldpark area of north Belfast." - Belfast Telegraph

Oldpark - Loyalist Area

Again young people having hatred bred into them by that sectarian organisation

This blaming themuns is very sad.
Here’s what the PSNI are saying
“Tennent St NPT + TSG +CCTV colleagues dealing with disorder at Hillview/Oldpark interface. Crowds of 40+ young people on both sides of interface. At least one petrol bomb thrown but no injuries or damage. Young people need to get a grip before someone is hurt #itsnotclever SgtW”

gwalk

downcow wrote: »

This blaming themuns is very sad.
Here’s what the PSNI are saying
“Tennent St NPT + TSG +CCTV colleagues dealing with disorder at Hillview/Oldpark interface. Crowds of 40+ young people on both sides of interface. At least one petrol bomb thrown but no injuries or damage. Young people need to get a grip before someone is hurt #itsnotclever SgtW”

Did you miss the part where your tag team partner suggested it was all Sinn Feins fault that a petrol bomb was thrown by loyalists?

As for blaming themuns, thats your modus operandi, the specialist at whatboutery in full flow

Fionn1952

Dytalus wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

We remained neutral, we extended condolences on the death of Hitler. It is a shameful part of our history, all because the bigots in this country couldn't bring themselves to align with Britain when it was the right thing to do.

We were right to remain neutral. Plenty of Irish went to fight in the British Army anyway, but if the State had declared war against Germany we'd have been instantly demolished. We didn't have anything even approaching the RAF to defend our island. Italy alone could have curbstomped us into ashes. The Luftwaffe could have leveled Ireland in a week unless the RAF was willing to defend us as fervently as they defended Britain. Would they have risked leaving their own homeland more open to bombings to defend us? Should they have been asked to given how desperate things were before Stalingrad and Pearl Harbour saw the tide begin to turn?

We could not have contributed in any way shape or form to the war effort outside of what limited actions we did perform - all of which were in favour of the allied forces (allied aircraft could use the Donegal air corridor, we returned allied pilots to Britain but kept Axis pilots here, our intelligence agencies co-operated extensively including the weather report used to give Overlord the go ahead, we allowed irish men to join the British Army). If such a war was to break out now, we'd be just as useless in open combat and likely a terrible liability to our allies. We can contribute manpower and nothing more, our military materiel is sorely lacking in quality and quantity (though our sniper teams are world renown, go team). We have no real way to transport our military overseas in any sizable deployment and we had even less ability to do so during World War 2.

Going to war with Germany would, at best, have been putting ourselves in the firing line and accomplishing nothing more than we accomplished anyway. "We're on your team guys, go get 'em...oh no we can't actually do anything so we'll just cheer from the bleachers" is arguably worse than staying out of it all together. At worst, it would have been the end of Ireland as a country.

But this is the problem with minor states like Ireland. We cannot, possibly ever, be in a position to contribute meaningfully even to our own defence against most concerted aggressors. Neutrality is selfish, yes, but it's also the only realistic option we have in defence.

This is not to excuse some of the awful actions our State did take. Even if many of them were normal or acceptable at the time. The Jewish community was ignored by our government (and by many governments at the time, it should be noted) when they asked for help. Our government (along with others, yet again) knew of the Holocaust as early as 1943 and while overt anti-semitism wasn't the norm (with some exceptions as there always is), there was a horrific apathy towards the persecution of Jewish people by Nazi Germany. Post-war Jewish refugees faced greater difficulty in seeking asylum than christian refugees.

This general disdain and apathy towards Jewish suffering was not uniquely Irish, and most nations did not truly regard Nazi Germany as the gold standard for 'evil' as we do now until after the discovery of the camps and the end of the war. That this viewpoint was held by other nations and was the 'norm' at the time does not at all make it okay (slavery was 'okay' once upon a time, imperialism was 'the norm', British and American concentration camps were whitewashed because they paled in comparison to German extermination camps, and racism was much more acceptable in the western world 100 years ago than it is now), but likewise it's unfair to accuse the Irish government of being uniquely callous when it comes to the Nazi's atrocities.

The states of the time went to war with Germany because of alliances and political reasons (communism, capitalism, and democracy vs fascism). They went to war because allowing Germany control over Europe guaranteed a hostile superpower on their border that had been imperialistic from its inception. They did not declare war to save those being slaughtered in the camps. Saying that they did is as inaccurate as saying that Germany's main motive for conquering Europe was to commit the Holocaust, rather than to expand Germany's power and empire.

ADDENDUM:

Russell was a traitor, trying to bring this country directly under the influence of the Nazis

I do agree with you on this. Even if his intention was a misguided attempt to get assistance for Ireland rather than being fueled out of actually agreeing with Nazi policies, the policy of the State at the time was neutrality. Engaging with any party in WW2 without the consent of the government went against that stance and is something I would count as treachery.

Granted the same argument could be made with our (under the table) dealings with the Allies, but it's hard to argue that a government (who allowed such dealings) can commit treason against itself.

As usual Dytalus, a very balanced, reasonable and logical post.

Unlike the majority of posts on this thread, you seem more concerned with reality than point scoring and I just wanted to take a second to thank you for it.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Sean Russell attempted by illegal means to bring this country under the sphere of Nazi influence. That was treason.

Your selective blindness to the context of the time and the unfinished business of our own formation as an independent state.
Russell and the IRA he commanded regarded Dev as the traitor. He was dealing with the Germans because they were the enemy of his enemy. A misguided opportunist is a more apt description of him.

Sean Russell wrote:

I am not a Nazi. I'm not even pro-German. I am an Irishman fighting for the independence of Ireland. The British have been our enemies for hundreds of years. They are the enemies of Germany today. If it suits Germany to give us help to achieve independence I am willing to accept it, but no more, and there must be no strings to the help.

He did what many all over the world did and would do. Stupid as it now is and was at the time, it affected nothing much in the wider scheme of things other than give the perpetually ashamed Irish with an inferiority complex, something to rant about.

I am actually people first, rather than any one nationality first. For that reason, Brexit is a bad idea, and I would prefer that Brexit not happen, even if it meant at least 200 years before there would be a border poll.

The welfare of ordinary people is most important, more important than whether Northern Ireland is under a UK flag or an Irish flag, and that means we should be pushing for an end to Brexit, rather than harping on about unity and border polls.

But when Dev put his 'people' and the country's 'welfare' first, he is someone to be 'disowned' and ashamed of.
You are consistent in your ability to be hypocritical if it suits you anyhow blanch.

janfebmar

Where does it say the petrol bomb was thrown by loyalists? It could have been thrown by either side if it was at an interface?

gwalk

janfebmar wrote: »

Where does it say the petrol bomb was thrown by loyalists? It could have been thrown by either side if it was at an interface?

It would have said it was thrown from Hillview not Oldpark if it came from the Nationalist side no?

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

Where does it say the petrol bomb was thrown by loyalists? It could have been thrown by either side if it was at an interface?

Yes because it would be surprising if loyalists engaged in violence.

gwalk

"a group of youths from the protestant community have been and are throwing petrol bombs tonight Hillview lower Oldpark PSNI now there"

janfebmar

blanch152 wrote: »

Nazi Germany was the most evil regime of the 20th century, and we sat on our hands, one of the most shameful acts of Irish history. In fact, some of us - Sean Russell - actively collaborated with and encouraged the Nazis.

I think a good compromise would have been for Ireland to come in to the war from 1943 / 44 on, and have for example some US forces stationed here in their preparation for the liberation of Europe, and to help defend us, for those worried about what would happen if Nazis attacked. If the allies had access to sea ports along our west coast, it would have been of great help during the battle of the Atlantic, which lasted until 1945, and cost many lives.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your selective blindness to the context of the time and the unfinished business of our own formation as an independent state.
Russell and the IRA he commanded regarded Dev as the traitor. He was dealing with the Germans because they were the enemy of his enemy. A misguided opportunist is a more apt description of him.



He did what many all over the world did and would do. Stupid as it now is and was at the time, it affected nothing much in the wider scheme of things other than give the perpetually ashamed Irish with an inferiority complex, something to rant about.





But when Dev put his 'people' and the country's 'welfare' first, he is someone to be 'disowned' and ashamed of.
You are consistent in your ability to be hypocritical if it suits you anyhow blanch.

"unfinished business of our own formation as an independent state"? What are you talking about?

If Russell had been arrested, he would have been executed for treason.

janfebmar

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes because it would be surprising if loyalists engaged in violence.

They are as capable of violence as Republicans, and there would be a bloodbath if there was a United Ireland.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

"unfinished business of our own formation as an independent state"? What are you talking about?

If Russell had been arrested, he would have been executed for treason.

You can ignore the context of the time all you want. The reality was that the IRA of that time saw itself (rightly or wrongly, whatever way you are bothered at this remove to view it) as the legitimate government of the state.
That was a by product of the difficult birth of the state.

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

They are as capable of violence as Republicans, and there would be a bloodbath if there was a United Ireland.

Most loyalist victims were civilians, even with the help of the security forces they were incompetent. They couldn't organise a nun-shoot in a nunnery.

steddyeddy

It's amazing that all the talk about Britain and Europe comes in the context of Britain leaving the European project.

Here's what WW2 veterans actually have to say about Brexit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur-o1dp4APU

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can ignore the context of the time all you want. The reality was that the IRA of that time saw itself (rightly or wrongly, whatever way you are bothered at this remove to view it) as the legitimate government of the state.
That was a by product of the difficult birth of the state.

The pIRA during the troubles may have seen itself as the legitimate army of Ireland too, but that does not give them (or you to give them) an excuse to murder Garda McCabe or others either.

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

The pIRA during the troubles may have seen itself as the legitimate army of Ireland too, but that does not give them (or you to give them) an excuse to murder Garda McCabe or others either.

Then why did you previously claim to vote nationalist and express disgust at voting unionist?

janfebmar

steddyeddy wrote: »

Most loyalist victims were civilians, even with the help of the security forces they were incompetent. They couldn't organise a nun-shoot in a nunnery.

They had not the collusion that the pira had with Irish security services, as shown by the Smithwick tribunal, you are right there.

Dytalus

Fionn1952 wrote: »

As usual Dytalus, a very balanced, reasonable and logical post.

Unlike the majority of posts on this thread, you seem more concerned with reality than point scoring and I just wanted to take a second to thank you for it.

Thank you, I make as much effort as possible to stay that way and it means a great deal to have you say that.

steddyeddy

janfebmar wrote: »

They had not the collusion that the pira had with Irish security services, as shown by the Smithwick tribunal, you are right there.

What does this sentence mean J?