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The glorious 12th
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Are you still avoiding admitting that the British ran concentration camps, and desperately peddling any way whatsoever to change the subject?
Ask Francie "I didn't call it a concentration camp." Brady what a concentration camp is.FrancieBrady wrote: »I didn't call it a concentration camp.Some Republicans did and do. For example,www.bobbysandstrust.com say Long Kesh by name and appearance was known worldwide as a concentration camp.FrancieBrady wrote: »I can see where they are coming from. Can't you?
So if we take it Long Kesh was a concentration camp, yes the British ran concentration camps.
I wonder what Francie would call a prison where they executed captured prisoners? An extermination camp? A death camp? Did Dev run an Extermination camp or a Death camp because he executed captured prisoners? The titles Republicans put on things can be very confusing, even for Republicans themselves, like Francie "I didn't call it a concentration camp" Brady, who is now known as Francie "it was a concentration camp" Brady.;)
Bit like his opinion of Dev, Dev was a great lad while he stood up to Churchill but when Francie discovered Dev executed some IRA men, Dev suddenly became "Notorious Dev".:D:D:D:D:D:D
So to get back to your point, yes if Long Kesh was a concentration camp then Yes the British ran concentration camps. As the Nazis did as well, the British were as bad as the Nazis in Republican minds. Yeah.
I wonder what the South Africans and Indians think of the dastardly British, seeing as the British ran concentration camps in N. Ireland as recently as the 1980s. The same republicans who tell us the British ran concentration camps in N. Ireland tell us the British ran them in south Africa too, even though the South Africans were quite happy to join forces with the British not long afterwards and help fight the Germans. They must not have been as bad as the concentration camps the nasty Brits ran in Ireland, or the South Africans would have been more bitter.0 -
Are you still avoiding admitting that the British ran concentration camps, and desperately peddling any way whatsoever to change the subject?
Ask Francie "I didn't call it a concentration camp." Brady what a concentration camp is.FrancieBrady wrote: »I didn't call it a concentration camp.Some Republicans did and do. For example,www.bobbysandstrust.com say Long Kesh by name and appearance was known worldwide as a concentration camp.FrancieBrady wrote: »I can see where they are coming from. Can't you?
So if we take it Long Kesh was a concentration camp, yes the British ran concentration camps.
I wonder what Francie would call a prison where they executed captured prisoners? An extermination camp? A death camp? Did Dev run an Extermination camp or a Death camp because he executed captured prisoners? The titles Republicans put on things can be very confusing, even for Republicans themselves, like Francie "I didn't call it a concentration camp" Brady, who is now known as Francie "it was a concentration camp" Brady.;)
Bit like his opinion of Dev, Dev was a great lad while he stood up to Churchill but when Francie discovered Dev executed some IRA men, Dev suddenly became "Notorious Dev".:D:D:D:D:D:D
So to get back to your point, yes if Long Kesh was a concentration camp then Yes the British ran concentration camps. As the Nazis did as well, the British were as bad as the Nazis in Republican minds. Yeah.
I didn't ask what Francie thought, I didn't mention Long Kesh. I'm talking purely as the term is generally known, did the British run concentration camps (specifically before there was a Nazi concentration camp). I want your opinion on the matter, not a deflection onto someone else's opinion please.0 -
I didn't ask what Francie thought, I didn't mention Long Kesh. I'm talking purely as the term is generally known, did the British run concentration camps (specifically before there was a Nazi concentration camp). I want your opinion on the matter, not a deflection onto someone else's opinion please.
If you take the simple definition of a concentration camp as "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", then yes,of course they did. The reason in South Africa was to prevent attacks elsewhere. Some republicans claim Long Kesh was a concentration camp too, and no doubt people in far flung corners of the world who read Irish Republican publications and websites have this picture in their head of Auchwitz type conditions for the Irish in N. Ireland.
Now, I have answered one question. Maybe you can answer one of mine. What did the 973 children found only recently in the sewage system in the Tuam children's home, only one of many such homes in Ireland, die of? Or maybe the religous in 20th century Ireland did not keep as good a records as the dastardly British before that?0 -
So in relation to the soft Lady, Mrs Thatcher, who treated captured IRA prisoners well and did not execute them, in comparison to the Hard Man DeValera, who executed (by firing squad and hanging) captured prisoners, the worst you can say about the soft Ladies 3 term elected reign is that she was p.m. when there was an alleged whitewash in relation to a football tragedy....
And you whinge about "this thread is far off the original thread topic.."
As Francie would say, Up the yard with ye.
Nothing alleged about the white was it was just like the British government did on Bloody Sunday******
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If you take the simple definition of a concentration camp as "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", then yes,of course they did. The reason in South Africa was to prevent attacks elsewhere. Some republicans claim Long Kesh was a concentration camp too, and no doubt people in far flung corners of the world who read Irish Republican publications and websites have this picture in their head of Auchwitz type conditions for the Irish in N. Ireland.
Now, I have answered one question. Maybe you can answer one of mine. What did the 973 children found only recently in the sewage system in the Tuam children's home, only one of many such homes in Ireland, die of? Or maybe the religous in 20th century Ireland did not keep as good a records as the dastardly British before that?
Jan, you're the one that brought up the Long Kesh.
You're the one that doesn't seem to know the difference between internment camps, concentration camps, and extermination camps.
You're the one that ignores the fact that Britian operated concentration camps as far back as 1900, with the express intention of holding civilians. Those in the Maze were, at least, accused of something.
You cannot see that Britian repeatedly starved millions, intentionally.
You flip flop around, somehow now trying to bring the ****ing travesty that was Tuam into it. That's a blight on this country, and there's few going to try to justify it.
But but but is all you seem to ****e on about.
Was Ireland always good to it's people, or it's leaders operating with the best interests? God no, but **** sake, Britian has a whole history of being **** to anyone and everyone they thought of as inferior, and if you can't see how similar they were to Nazi Germany (at times) then that's willful ignorance.
Don't think for one second that I'm in any way a shinner, I don't agree with their policies, financial or political, nor do I support terrorism in any form. I can see why some resorted to it, but understanding is not supporting.0 -
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Sofiztikated wrote: »Jan, you're the one that brought up the Long Kesh.
You're the one that doesn't seem to know the difference between internment camps, concentration camps, and extermination camps.
You're the one that ignores the fact that Britian operated concentration camps as far back as 1900, with the express intention of holding civilians. Those in the Maze were, at least, accused of something.
You cannot see that Britian repeatedly starved millions, intentionally.
You flip flop around, somehow now trying to bring the ****ing travesty that was Tuam into it. That's a blight on this country, and there's few going to try to justify it.
But but but is all you seem to ****e on about.
Was Ireland always good to it's people, or it's leaders operating with the best interests? God no, but **** sake, Britian has a whole history of being **** to anyone and everyone they thought of as inferior, and if you can't see how similar they were to Nazi Germany (at times) then that's willful ignorance.
Don't think for one second that I'm in any way a shinner, I don't agree with their policies, financial or political, nor do I support terrorism in any form. I can see why some resorted to it, but understanding is not supporting.
I can see why some resorted to terrorism too, on both sides, but understanding is not supporting.
Of course I know the difference between a concentration camp etc etc , it is certain Republicans who clearly do not, they tell the world that Long Kesh was one for example (link provided). You trust the same Republicans who tell you Britain "intentionally starved millions"? The penny dropped yet?0 -
Mcitytillidie wrote: »Nothing alleged about the white was it was just like the British government did on Bloody Sunday
Everything comes back to Bloody Sunday. So you think the worst that can be said about the soft lady's 3 terms in power is she was p.m. during the investigation in to a tragedy at a football match. She never executed any captured prisoners, unlike hard man DeVelera, or maybe we should call him the Iron man. Anyway, do you think Mrs T should have taken the same stance against captured prisoners as Dev did, or should he should have been as soft on the IRA as she was?
Why do you think Republican propaganda paints Mrs T as the Iron Lady even though she did not execute captured prisoners in prison, unlike Dev, who gets an easy ride? I never could understand that.0 -
I can see why some resorted to terrorism too, on both sides, but understanding is not supporting.
Of course I know the difference between a concentration camp etc etc , it is certain Republicans who clearly do not, they tell the world that Long Kesh was one for example (link provided). You trust the same Republicans who tell you Britain "intentionally starved millions"? The penny dropped yet?
Again, no one here has claimed anything of the sort, so stop trying to use that as a battling point.
And no, I don't trust republicans who "tell" me anything. I look at history, and look at the facts, and make up my own mind.
When Churchill was written to about the Bengali famine, by British political advisors, and stock stopping off in Calcutta and told to sail on to bolster "sturdy Tommy" he wrote in the margin "Why hasn't Ghandi died yet?". Fact.
Churchill said "They're a beastly people with a beastly religion" Fact.
Rice was exported, incase of a Japanese invasion, per British instruction. Fact.
Priority was given to war efforts, at the expense of Indian peoples, in part because their own nationalist sentiments, and Britains desire to protect their imperialism. And a sentiment that still carries on today by some in Britain. Fact.
Were there other factors, absolutely. Mismanagement of local government, black markets, cultural decisions all attributed to the deaths.
You ask about a penny dropping? Everyone here is waiting for pounds (Or Euros, we won't mind ) to drop from you.0 -
Mcitytillidie wrote: »Nothing alleged about the white was it was just like the British government did on Bloody Sunday
Everything comes back to Bloody Sunday. So you think the worst that can be said about the soft lady's 3 terms in power is she was p.m. during the investigation in to a tragedy at a football match. She never executed any captured prisoners, unlike hard man DeVelera, or maybe we should call him the Iron man. Anyway, do you think Mrs T should have taken the same stance against captured prisoners as Dev did, or should he should have been as soft on the IRA as she was?
Why do you think Republican propaganda paints Mrs T as the Iron Lady even though she did not execute captured prisoners in prison, unlike Dev, who gets an easy ride? I never could understand that.
Once more, half truths, distraction and misdirection from you, Jan.
As you're fully aware, the nickname The Iron Lady was nothing to do with the Republican movement, it came from a Soviet journalist, and was intentionally co-opted by her and the British as a positive. You may have noticed it was used as the name for a movie the British made about her? How is this relevant though? More of your gish-gallop techniques?
Likewise, Tuam is completely irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, and much like I said before, other horrific occurrences across the globe don't somehow make those carried out by the British OK. I do find it strange that you're so concerned by an atrocity that killed a thousand, but totally dismissive and willing to hand-wave away as insignificant an atrocity responsible for over 150,000.
I'm also aware that, depending how you stretch the definition, that some could consider the H Blocks to be a concentration camp, due to the policy of internment without trial (another fundamental failing by the British government), however it certainly wasn't on the same level of inhumanity as the concentration camps during the Boer war. They were much closer to many of the Nazi concentration camps, such as Dachau. Your flip-flopping terminology between concentration camp and extermination camp seems to be preventing you from acknowledging this similarity.0 -
Once more, half truths, distraction and misdirection from you, Jan.
As you're fully aware, the nickname The Iron Lady was nothing to do with the Republican movement, it came from a Soviet journalist, and was intentionally co-opted by her and the British as a positive. You may have noticed it was used as the name for a movie the British made about her? How is this relevant though? More of your gish-gallop techniques?
Likewise, Tuam is completely irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, and much like I said before, other horrific occurrences across the globe don't somehow make those carried out by the British OK. I do find it strange that you're so concerned by an atrocity that killed a thousand, but totally dismissive and willing to hand-wave away as insignificant an atrocity responsible for over 150,000.
I'm also aware that, depending how you stretch the definition, that some could consider the H Blocks to be a concentration camp, due to the policy of internment without trial (another fundamental failing by the British government), however it certainly wasn't on the same level of inhumanity as the concentration camps during the Boer war. They were much closer to many of the Nazi concentration camps, such as Dachau. Your flip-flopping terminology between concentration camp and extermination camp seems to be preventing you from acknowledging this similarity.
Your inbred hatred of the British is preventing you from seeing history in an objective manner. The figure for South Africa was 22,000, now you are saying 150,000. You excuse Republicans such as those earlier who stated Long Kesh was a concentration camp because of internment without trial (another failing of the British government you say). You fail to know the difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp.
You forget internment was used here in the south during the IRA border campaign of 1956 - 62, another failed Republican armed struggle. Were our camps concentration camps too?0 -
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Once more, half truths, distraction and misdirection from you, Jan.
As you're fully aware, the nickname The Iron Lady was nothing to do with the Republican movement, it came from a Soviet journalist, and was intentionally co-opted by her and the British as a positive. You may have noticed it was used as the name for a movie the British made about her? How is this relevant though? More of your gish-gallop techniques?
Likewise, Tuam is completely irrelevant to the topic we're discussing, and much like I said before, other horrific occurrences across the globe don't somehow make those carried out by the British OK. I do find it strange that you're so concerned by an atrocity that killed a thousand, but totally dismissive and willing to hand-wave away as insignificant an atrocity responsible for over 150,000.
I'm also aware that, depending how you stretch the definition, that some could consider the H Blocks to be a concentration camp, due to the policy of internment without trial (another fundamental failing by the British government), however it certainly wasn't on the same level of inhumanity as the concentration camps during the Boer war. They were much closer to many of the Nazi concentration camps, such as Dachau. Your flip-flopping terminology between concentration camp and extermination camp seems to be preventing you from acknowledging this similarity.
Your inbred hatred of the British is preventing you from seeing history in an objective manner. The figure for South Africa was 22,000, now you are saying 150,000. You excuse Republicans such as those earlier who stated Long Kesh was a concentration camp because of internment without trial (another failing of the British government you say). You fail to know the difference between an internment camp and a concentration camp.
You forget internment was used here in the south during the IRA border campaign of 1956 - 62, another failed Republican armed struggle. Were our camps concentration camps too?
Once more, Jan, rather than address a point, you go off on one.
Where have I expressed hatred towards the British? I'm discussing matters of historical record. I have issues with some British state conduct in my homeland, I also have a huge number of British friends, regularly visit various parts of Britain, and acknowledge and respect a large number of positive historical contributions the British have made to the world.
I said I could understand how some would consider H Blocks to be concentration camps (note I did not include myself in that number) and immediately went on to state my actual opinion - they were not on the same level as the concentration camps of the Boer war. You'll note I'm very careful with my use of the term concentration camp, because I think it is important to differentiate between them and extermination camps- a differentiation you seem to flip flop on rapidly depending on whatever nonsensical point you're trying to make.
There's nothing subjective about the fact that Britain had concentration camps. Your constant cap doffing to the British establishment is preventing you from ever acknowledging any wrong done historically by the British. No surprise there.
Do I hate The Irish because I acknowledge some of the atrocities the government let the Catholic Church away with? Do I hate the Germans because I acknowledge the evils of the Nazi regime? Obviously not, but you cant actually make a point which stands up to scrutiny, so you dismiss all as anti-Britishness, while arguing against well known history.
I'll say it again, it is a matter of historical fact that the British had concentration camps.0 -
This is what happens when propaganda comes face to face with the truth.
I think it is abundantly clear reading back through all that ^ that janfebmar genuinely wasn't aware of Britain's use of concentration camps and at first denied it and then when presented with the facts she denied some more then furiously tried to make the best of it.0 -
I'll say it again, it is a matter of historical fact that the British had concentration camps.
Once more, you have not understood the points made. Of course the British had concentration camps, I even pointed that out to Francie , with a link to the Bobby Sands website, who tell all readers and the world that the British operated a Concentration camp at Long Kesh as recently as the 1980s.
What I asked, and which nobody has answered yet, was there concentration camps south of the border ? According to Republican logic, there was, as there was internment here as well as in N Ireland (during the failed Republican border campaign of 1956 -62 for example). The second question, as Republicans fail to see the difference between an internment camp, a concentration camp and an extermination camp, was what sort of camp was it where Dev executed his prisoners? Mrs T did not do that in Long Kesh, and it was a Concentration camp according to Republicans, so the prison where Dev executed captured prisoners must have been even worse?
In the worst of the British concentration camps / refugee camps / call them what you want, was the death rate as high as in the various religious homes in Ireland decades later eg in the place in the tiny town of Tuam Co Galway where the remains of over 900 kids were recently found in a sewer?0 -
Once more, you have not understood the points made. Of course the British had concentration camps, I even pointed that out to Francie , with a link to the Bobby Sands website, who tell all readers and the world that the British operated a Concentration camp at Long Kesh as recently as the 1980s.
What I asked, and which nobody has answered yet, was there concentration camps south of the border ? According to Republican logic, there was, as there was internment here as well as in N Ireland (during the failed Republican border campaign of 1956 -62 for example). The second question, as Republicans fail to see the difference between an internment camp, a concentration camp and an extermination camp, was what sort of camp was it where Dev executed his prisoners? Mrs T did not do that in Long Kesh, and it was a Concentration camp according to Republicans, so the prison where Dev executed captured prisoners must have been even worse?
In the worst of the British concentration camps / refugee camps / call them what you want, was the death rate as high as in the various religious homes in Ireland decades later eg in the place in the tiny town of Tuam Co Galway where the remains of over 900 kids were recently found in a sewer?
As scrambled an attempt to try and regain something after completely embarrassing yourself and your ultra pro British grasp of historical facts.
Let it go jan.0 -
I didn't ask what Francie thought, I didn't mention Long Kesh. I'm talking purely as the term is generally known, did the British run concentration camps (specifically before there was a Nazi concentration camp). I want your opinion on the matter, not a deflection onto someone else's opinion please.
This is a pointless discussion as whatever concentration camps were and weren't before the Nazis, they were something completely different and much much worse by the end of the Nazi regime.
Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp by any stretch of the imagination.0 -
I didn't ask what Francie thought, I didn't mention Long Kesh. I'm talking purely as the term is generally known, did the British run concentration camps (specifically before there was a Nazi concentration camp). I want your opinion on the matter, not a deflection onto someone else's opinion please.
This is a pointless discussion as whatever concentration camps were and weren't before the Nazis, they were something completely different and much much worse by the end of the Nazi regime.
Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp by any stretch of the imagination.
I agree entirely that Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp - I didnt bring the matter up, Jan is just using it for his usual deflection.
Your issue seems to be with differentiating between Nazi concentration camps (very directly comparable to the British concentration camps during the Boer war), and the Nazi extermination camps (an even more extreme and vile kind of concentration camp). I've been very careful to keep the distinction clear, and not to compare with the extermination camps, but the initial comparison is absolutely valid.0 -
This is a pointless discussion as whatever concentration camps were and weren't before the Nazis, they were something completely different and much much worse by the end of the Nazi regime.
Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp by any stretch of the imagination.
Before the 'defence of the realm' distraction the simple point was made that the Nazi's used the exact same methods as the British empire, to attempt to build their own empire and that is a historical fact. Invasion, subjugation, pilfering of resources for the mother/fatherland, concentration camps and starvation etc etc.0 -
I agree entirely that Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp - I didnt bring the matter up, Jan is just using it for his usual deflection.
Republicans, for example those on the Bobby Sands website, did not say if was equivalent or not to a Nazi concentration camp. They did or do not say if it was better, worse or the same as a Nazi concentration camp.
I gave the definition of a concentration camp and long ago on this thread pointed out the different types of camps etc.
Republicans have sunk to a new low by comparing camps elsewhere in the world to the holocaust camps.0 -
I'll say it again, it is a matter of historical fact that the British had concentration camps.
Once more, you have not understood the points made. Of course the British had concentration camps, I even pointed that out to Francie , with a link to the Bobby Sands website, who tell all readers and the world that the British operated a Concentration camp at Long Kesh as recently as the 1980s.
What I asked, and which nobody has answered yet, was there concentration camps south of the border ? According to Republican logic, there was, as there was internment here as well as in N Ireland (during the failed Republican border campaign of 1956 -62 for example). The second question, as Republicans fail to see the difference between an internment camp, a concentration camp and an extermination camp, was what sort of camp was it where Dev executed his prisoners? Mrs T did not do that in Long Kesh, and it was a Concentration camp according to Republicans, so the prison where Dev executed captured prisoners must have been even worse?
In the worst of the British concentration camps / refugee camps / call them what you want, was the death rate as high as in the various religious homes in Ireland decades later eg in the place in the tiny town of Tuam Co Galway where the remains of over 900 kids were recently found in a sewer?
More deflection and attempts to muddy the water. Your death rate comparison is very familiar- just like Jacob Reese-Moggs ridiculous (and wholly incorrect) comparison between death rates in Boer concentration camps and Glasgow at the time. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume you just don't know how severe they were - 344 deaths per 1000 per annum. Just let that number sink in. If you want to continue your deflection onto Irish atrocities (which certainly exist, but in no way diminish British atrocities), then provide some numbers for where you're comparing it with.
Your poor linguistic water-muddying attempts are obvious throughout the rest. Whatever some unnamed Republican called Long Kesh has nothing to do with this discussion, their opinion is theirs, you can take up your argument with them. If you're discussing something with me, address MY points. The camps held by the British during the Boer war were not Refugee camps, they were concentration camps. They were directly comparable to Nazi concentration camps (not extermination camps, before you try to deflect again) in a way that Long Kesh (or de Valera's internment camps) were not.
Republicans are not hive-mind, so stop setting up straw man arguments on that basis and actually address a point head on for once please.0 -
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I agree entirely that Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp - I didnt bring the matter up, Jan is just using it for his usual deflection.
Your issue seems to be with differentiating between Nazi concentration camps (very directly comparable to the British concentration camps during the Boer war), and the Nazi extermination camps (an even more extreme and vile kind of concentration camp). I've been very careful to keep the distinction clear, and not to compare with the extermination camps, but the initial comparison is absolutely valid.
It was the extermination camps that brought the Nazi regime to new lows in civilised behaviour. Whether they were extermination camps or Nazi concentration camps is only terminology and semantics - the programmatic attempt at extinction of the Jewish race was what made them different.
Neither Long Kesh nor the previous concentration camps (as used by many regimes in many different wars) are comparable in any real way.
The whole debate is just a deflection tactic away from the reality of Sean Russell as a Nazi collaborator and traitor to Ireland. Jan has fallen into the trap, and others have been dragged into a meaningless discussion. As always the whataboutery takes over.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »Before the 'defence of the realm' distraction the simple point was made that the Nazi's used the exact same methods as the British empire, to attempt to build their own empire and that is a historical fact. Invasion, subjugation, pilfering of resources for the mother/fatherland, concentration camps and starvation etc etc.
For all your fantastical attempts to paint the British as the most evil people on the planet, you just can't get away with saying that they were as bad as the Nazis. They weren't, and they stood up to the Nazis.0 -
For all your fantastical attempts to paint the British as the most evil people on the planet,
This is the fantasy partitionists want you to believe in all it's glory. NOBODY has said that.just can't get away with saying that they were as bad as the Nazis. They weren't, and they stood up to the Nazis.
Nobody said that either. The POINT was that the Nazi's aped the British empire in that they used methods the BE used...Invasion, subjugation, pilfering of resources for the mother/fatherland, concentration camps and starvation etc etc.0 -
I agree entirely that Long Kesh wasn't equivalent to a Nazi concentration camp - I didnt bring the matter up, Jan is just using it for his usual deflection.
Your issue seems to be with differentiating between Nazi concentration camps (very directly comparable to the British concentration camps during the Boer war), and the Nazi extermination camps (an even more extreme and vile kind of concentration camp). I've been very careful to keep the distinction clear, and not to compare with the extermination camps, but the initial comparison is absolutely valid.
It was the extermination camps that brought the Nazi regime to new lows in civilised behaviour. Whether they were extermination camps or Nazi concentration camps is only terminology and semantics - the programmatic attempt at extinction of the Jewish race was what made them different.
Neither Long Kesh nor the previous concentration camps (as used by many regimes in many different wars) are comparable in any real way.
The whole debate is just a deflection tactic away from the reality of Sean Russell as a Nazi collaborator and traitor to Ireland. Jan has fallen into the trap, and others have been dragged into a meaningless discussion. As always the whataboutery takes over.
Yes, the extermination camps were a new low. They spawned from the earlier Nazi concentration camps, which were directly comparable to those of the British during the Boer war. While not as horrific as the extermination camps, you seriously downplay just how horrific the other concentration camps were with your posts.
I wouldn't go so far as to call Sean Russell a Nazi collaborator myself (from my reading, he planned to arrange assistance from them in removing the British from Ireland, not directly help the Nazi cause), though given Ireland's neutral stance at the time, I can understand calling him traitorous/treasonous towards Ireland certainly. Just to note (and I can't believe I have to make the distinction) in no way does my preference to not use the word, 'collaborator' imply that I in any way support his actions. WWII was one of the few wars I can say the British were totally on the right side with zero equivocation or conflict.0 -
The whole debate is just a deflection tactic away from the reality of Sean Russell as a Nazi collaborator and traitor to Ireland. Jan has fallen into the trap, and others have been dragged into a meaningless discussion. As always the whataboutery takes over.
By the way, this 'whole' section of the 'debate' started when somebody (guess who?) was blaming the cyclical trouble here entirely on Irish republicans and another poster asked:Matt Barrett wrote:Was the French resistance in WW2 entirely the fault of the French nationalists?
This was another poster's (guess who again?) starter for ten to have their usual pop at the Irish and Dev and Russell and etc etc erc etc...we all know where it goes at this stage.0 -
FrancieBrady wrote: »This is the fantasy partitionists want you to believe in all it's glory. NOBODY has said that.
Nobody said that either. The POINT was that the Nazi's aped the British empire in that they used methods the BE used...Invasion, subjugation, pilfering of resources for the mother/fatherland, concentration camps and starvation etc etc.
Saying that the Nazis aped the British Empire is like saying that the Dublin football team are copying the methods of the Emyvale Junior B team of 1947.
There simply is no relevant comparison.0 -
Saying that the Nazis aped the British Empire is like saying that the Dublin football team are copying the methods of the Emyvale Junior B team of 1947.
There simply is no relevant comparison.
Hitler himself was fond of making the comparison. I doubt he was ever in thrall of the Emyvale team.Adolf wrote:Throughout my years of political activities, I have always advocated the idea of establishing close Anglo-German friendship and cooperation. I found countless congenial people in my Movement. Perhaps they even joined my Movement because of this conviction of mine. The desire for Anglo-German friendship and cooperation not only reflects my own proper sentiments on the topic, derived from the common heritage of our two peoples, but also my opinion that the existence of the British Empire is of importance to mankind and in its best interest. Never have I left any doubt about my conviction that the maintaining of this empire is an object of inestimable value to mankind's culture and economy.
By whatever means Great Britain may have gained its colonial possessions— and I know this entailed the use of force, the use of the most brutal force in many instances—I nevertheless realize that no other empire has ever been created by different means. In the end, world history values not the method so much as the success; and this not in terms of the success of the method employed, but of the general utility derived from the method.
Undoubtedly the Anglo-Saxon people have accomplished a great colonizing work on this earth. I sincerely admire this achievement.0 -
Hold on a second there.FrancieBrady wrote: »
This was another poster's (guess who again?) starter for ten to have their usual pop at the Irish and....
Pop at Extremist Republicans yes, but not a pop at the Irish. I am Irish myself. You do not have to be Republican to be Irish Francie. You are confusing the two again. You said before you do not consider non-Republicans fully Irish and you favour a resettlement scheme in the event of a United Ireland.
I would say it is you who is in the minority when it comes to support for the pIRA Francie : most people did not support them.0 -
Hold on a second there.
Pop at Extremist Republicans yes, but not a pop at the Irish. I am Irish myself. You do not have to be Republican to be Irish Francie. You are confusing the two again. You said before you do not consider non-Republicans fully Irish and you favour a resettlement scheme in the event of a United Ireland.
I would say it is you who is in the minority when it comes to support for the pIRA Francie : most people did not support them.
If you are not Republican then you are a lesser form of Irish person known as a partitionist.0 -
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FrancieBrady wrote: »Hitler himself was fond of making the comparison. I doubt he was ever in thrall of the Emyvale team.
And that is relevant, how? I mean there are two-bit county councillors who think they are JFK.0
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