The glorious 12th

steddyeddy

Right J I decided to be kind and look a view that is in opposition to mine! So let's go.

janfebmar wrote: »

No were were not.

What? Now sorry J but that's a bumpy start.

And 100,000 brave Irishmen and women volunteered to fight with the British.

Yes many with the promise of home rule hanging over them. We all know what happened there. Women volunteered?

AThe only Irish people fighting the British at the time was a tiny tiny percentage of odd ball Republicans,

Again J you're so focused on making random digs that your posts lack coherency. No republicans were fighting the British at the time as independence had been achieved by the time of WW2.

so small that when Dev shot 6 of them he had captured there was no outcry at all.

Wow. No outcry you say?

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

At what point in World War 2 was Ireland already fighting "an empire that operated from a position of perceived superiority"?

Revisionsism at its worst.

We had already fought an Empire B. We weren't fighting it in WW2. You're claiming that the British thought of the Irish, Indians as Kenyans as equals?

Junkyard Tom

Sofiztikated wrote: »

You flip flop around, somehow now trying to bring the ****ing travesty that was Tuam into it. That's a blight on this country, and there's few going to try to justify it.

This is the nub of it. I don't know anyone in Ireland who isn't utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to the Church and State's treatment of our fellow citizens.

I believe we had one of the largest incarcerated populations (per capita) in the world back in the day if you include industrial schools, laundries, psychiatric hospitals, prisons and whatnot.

Anyone who tries to defend/deflect/whatabout the Church/State's degeneracy back then is considered a fucking crank yet we have people who claim to be Irish here on boards.ie who do exactly that when it comes to the British State.

Truly weird behaviour motivated by some serious hate for their fellow citizens - it must be exhausting for them - they are to be pitied really.

steddyeddy

RobMc59 wrote: »

Careful Janfebmar,your continued heresy will incur the wrath of Ireland's own Thomas de torcquemada,well known for unmasking dastardly unionists and those who don't agree with him-i'll give you one guess!

I don't know what you mean. Just because I find the British (or Belgian for that matter) empire distasteful doesn't mean I think Ireland wasn't engaged in atrocities. Look over my past post on the Catholic church and I describe them in equally derogatory ways.

janfebmar

steddyeddy wrote: »

Right J I decided to be kind and look a view that is in opposition to mine! So let's go.



What? Now sorry J but that's a bumpy start.



Yes many with the promise of home rule hanging over them. We all know what happened there. Women volunteered?



Again J you're so focused on making random digs that your posts lack coherency. No republicans were fighting the British at the time as independence had been achieved by the time of WW2.




Wow. No outcry you say?

The vast majority of the 100,000 who volunteered for the war effort to fight Nazism but there were some women in non combat roles in the war effort.

Home rule promise? You sure you not confused with WW1?


There were some IRA attacks in the late thirties against UK targets, for example, you not know that steddyeddy?

And no, there was no public outcry when Dev executed the IRA men.

steddyeddy

Dytalus wrote: »

.....I. Cannot. Even.

I thought unionist areas flew Israel's flag to show support? And a number of the DUP support Israel as well. How do the guys flying this flag reconcile the clash?



You've heard of "lesser of two evils" and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", right? If Nazi Germany cropped up again, and I had a choice between joining a military of an old oppressor to squash a current fascist superpower it's not a particularly difficult choice. I'd go back to decrying the oppression once the matter at hand was dealt with though. (I probably actually wouldn't. I have enough physical health issues to know I'd never get accepted into the military ;-; )

I don't think this makes the point you think it is making.

They do fly the Israeli flag sometimes but also the Nazi and confederate flags.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You're not adding anything just picking to try score points IMO.

I don't do scoring points.

I point out unicorns and rainbows where I see them, debunk fantastical mythologies and identify the cognitive dissonance at the heart of debates. That doesn't require me to fully defend anything, as I am often just pointing to the weaknesses and absurdities in other arguments and opinions.

If there are holes to be picked in arguments and rationale, I just point out them. Quite often, the Republican emperor (I mean this as the argument in defence of republicanism rather than any particular poster) has no clothes, and while obvious to any normal observer, no harm in pointing this out.

"Republican emperor" is a nice example of cognitive dissonance:D:D.

janfebmar

steddyeddy wrote: »

We had already fought an Empire B. We weren't fighting it in WW2. You're claiming that the British thought of the Irish, Indians as Kenyans as equals?

I knew a handful of the 100,000 Irishmen who served and they always said they were treated well and as equals.

blanch152

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

This is the nub of it. I don't know anyone in Ireland who isn't utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to the Church and State's treatment of our fellow citizens.

I believe we had one of the largest incarcerated populations (per capita) in the world back in the day if you include industrial schools, laundries, psychiatric hospitals, prisons and whatnot.

Anyone who tries to defend/deflect/whatabout the Church/State's degeneracy back then is considered a fucking crank yet we have people who claim to be Irish here on boards.ie who do exactly that when it comes to the British State.

Truly weird behaviour motivated by some serious hate for their fellow citizens - it must be exhausting for them - they are to be pitied really.

I think you are getting this somewhat wrong and somewhat right.

You are certainly correct about everyone in Ireland being utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to the Church and State's treatment of our fellow citizens. However, most of us are also utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to standing up to the Nazis and also particularly ashamed of the role played by the likes of Sean Russell.

There isn't a single poster who has said that the British Empire were right in everything they do, there isn't a single poster who has said that Bloody Sunday was right, but those statements do not logically lead to the virulent anti-British sentiment expressed on here time and again in faux outrage by certain posters.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

I think you are getting this somewhat wrong and somewhat right.

You are certainly correct about everyone in Ireland being utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to the Church and State's treatment of our fellow citizens. However, most of us are also utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to standing up to the Nazis and also particularly ashamed of the role played by the likes of Sean Russell.

There isn't a single poster who has said that the British Empire were right in everything they do, there isn't a single poster who has said that Bloody Sunday was right, but those statements do not logically lead to the virulent anti-British sentiment expressed on here time and again in faux outrage by certain posters.

I think Ireland should be ashamed of not standing up to the church alright. However I think we were right to stay out of WW2. As regards fighting racial superiority we already did our job.

steddyeddy

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't do scoring points.

I point out unicorns and rainbows where I see them, debunk fantastical mythologies and identify the cognitive dissonance at the heart of debates. That doesn't require me to fully defend anything, as I am often just pointing to the weaknesses and absurdities in other arguments and opinions.

If there are holes to be picked in arguments and rationale, I just point out them. Quite often, the Republican emperor (I mean this as the argument in defence of republicanism rather than any particular poster) has no clothes, and while obvious to any normal observer, no harm in pointing this out.

"Republican emperor" is a nice example of cognitive dissonance:D:D.

Likewise Blanch I suggest you travel more. If you think Irish people think the British treated them abhorrently you should meet some Kenyans or Hindu nationalists. It's not just a republican thing to think the British empire operated on racial superiority.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

There isn't a single poster who has said that the British Empire were right in everything they do, there isn't a single poster who has said that Bloody Sunday was right, but those statements do not logically lead to the virulent anti-British sentiment expressed on here time and again in faux outrage by certain posters.

Aw jesus not this climb up on the high moral ground again.

What is wrong with you that you fear discussing facts blanch.

Why do you have to 'feel' so superior to everyone else as a debater?

blanch152

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think Ireland should be ashamed of not standing up to the church alright. However I think we were right to stay out of WW2. As regards fighting racial superiority we already did our job.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Likewise Blanch I suggest you travel more. If you think Irish people think the British treated them abhorrently you should meet some Kenyans or Hindu nationalists. It's not just a republican thing to think the British empire operated on racial superiority.

You see, you are once again extracting something I didn't say from what I actually said.

I didn't defend the British Empire, I criticised the Irish government in World War 2 and I described Sean Russell as a traitor. Those statements stand without any whataboutery on what the British did and didn't do or what the British were and weren't.

As for us being whiter than white on racial superiority, you don't need to go further than these threads to see that isn't true. Even leaving aside the numerous threads on immigrants, just look at these Northern Ireland threads and see the racial superiority in the posts about Ulster Scots, in the posts about Brexit, in the posts about Unionists etc. Most of the republican posters on these threads are guilty of expressing racial superiority, some of them on a daily basis, and a small few on an hourly basis.

steddyeddy

I've never met anyone sane that was ashamed we didn't fight in WW2.

Junkyard Tom

blanch152 wrote: »

However, most of us are also utterly ashamed of our collective lack of civil courage when it came to standing up to the Nazis and also particularly ashamed of the role played by the likes of Sean Russell.

We were a backward agrarian economy who'd just managed to shake off the British Empire's grip (mostly) and had no desire to throw our lot in again with our tormentors across the Irish Sea - John Redmond already made that wasteful mistake. We have little to be ashamed of. Stop portraying the British war effort as some sort of noble good-versus-evil endeavour - that wasn't the motivation for the likes of Churchill.

There isn't a single poster who has said that the British Empire were right in everything they do, there isn't a single poster who has said that Bloody Sunday was right

You don't have to be unconditionally supportive of the British state to expose your true colours - relentless whataboutery, deflection, obfuscation when the British State's crimes in Ireland are mentioned does that job.

but those statements do not logically lead to the virulent anti-British sentiment expressed on here time and again in faux outrage by certain posters.

You're conflating anti-Britishness with anti-British-State's-behaviour in Ireland and elsewhere. Britain has lots to be proud of and we're immersed in British culture in Ireland - we don't have to buy into the ridiculous jingoism that goes with it though.

janfebmar

blanch152 wrote: »

As for us being whiter than white on racial superiority, you don't need to go further than these threads to see that isn't true. Even leaving aside the numerous threads on immigrants, just look at these Northern Ireland threads and see the racial superiority in the posts about Ulster Scots, in the posts about Brexit, in the posts about Unionists etc. Most of the republican posters on these threads are guilty of expressing racial superiority, some of them on a daily basis, and a small few on an hourly basis.

+1. Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me that the people most in favour of "unification" are those who are most sectarian towards the Unionists / protestants / Orange in Northern Ireland.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You see, you are once again extracting something I didn't say from what I actually said.

I didn't defend the British Empire, I criticised the Irish government in World War 2 and I described Sean Russell as a traitor. Those statements stand without any whataboutery on what the British did and didn't do or what the British were and weren't.

As for us being whiter than white on racial superiority, you don't need to go further than these threads to see that isn't true. Even leaving aside the numerous threads on immigrants, just look at these Northern Ireland threads and see the racial superiority in the posts about Ulster Scots, in the posts about Brexit, in the posts about Unionists etc. Most of the republican posters on these threads are guilty of expressing racial superiority, some of them on a daily basis, and a small few on an hourly basis.

So if you are critical of something, you are guilty of racial superiority????

:D:D:D I think we have reached a new level of comedy on this thread.

Rather than debate the points made, you just berate people for daring to have a critical opinion of the British and The British empire. Your inferiority complex fully exposed.

tipptom

steddyeddy wrote: »

They do fly the Israeli flag sometimes but also the Nazi and confederate flags.

Don't forget the Apartheid flag they like to fly,maybe its their way of owning the concentration camps in South Africa or or just a salute to their fellow fascists.

James Brown

janfebmar wrote: »

No were were not. And 100,000 brave Irishmen and women volunteered to fight with the British. The only Irish people fighting the British at the time was a tiny tiny percentage of odd ball Republicans, so small that when Dev shot 6 of them he had captured there was no outcry at all.

How many did Dev shoot again, 6? You should post that more often

janfebmar wrote: »

You will find that hundreds of thousands of Jewish, Indian, Irish, Polish etc volunteered and fought with the British during the war. Who were the racists? More like the Nazis. Who did Republicans collaborate, or try to collaborate with again (except they were probably not good enough for that even)?

Again, back then, before the full knowledge of the Nazis was known.
You could see how some people might look at the British on one side and the Germans on the other and based on the British reputation, support the Germans.
Now don't go adding (1945) now will you?

James Brown

janfebmar wrote: »

+1. Indeed, it never ceases to amaze me that the people most in favour of "unification" are those who are most sectarian towards the Unionists / protestants / Orange in Northern Ireland.

Can you back up this hypothesis? I mean without your twisted fake inferences.
Some of us don't even support SF

RobMc59

Matt Barrett wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

Churchills right hand man was an Irishman, and people from practically every country in the world served under him and found him fair. 100,000 Irishmen who served under him and who volunteered to do so, had no complaints.

So what Jan?

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

James Brown

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

I get that. I don't get the argument Jan is... I don't know, fighting?
I think 'willing' is an over statement Rob. Our Redmond was a complete sell out dirt bag IMO.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Matt Barrett wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

Churchills right hand man was an Irishman, and people from practically every country in the world served under him and found him fair. 100,000 Irishmen who served under him and who volunteered to do so, had no complaints.

So what Jan?

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

Jesus, that's some whitewashing of history, Rob. Suppose the plantations were just the same as having a few pals over for a sleepover, the native Irish were never oppressed, no attempt was made to destroy the native culture and everyone was just a happy British citizen over here until those damn IRA ones stirred everything up with a pesky uprising?

Some people born in Ireland were certainly willing parts of the empire, part of the home nations etc, but normal every day people were much the same as any colonised people. Granted, your own working class hardly had a holiday lifestyle either.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

I fixed that for you Rob.

Ireland, when it was run by the Anglo Irish ascendancy class, was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

RobMc59

steddyeddy wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Careful Janfebmar,your continued heresy will incur the wrath of Ireland's own Thomas de torcquemada,well known for unmasking dastardly unionists and those who don't agree with him-i'll give you one guess!

I don't know what you mean. Just because I find the British (or Belgian for that matter) empire distasteful doesn't mean I think Ireland wasn't engaged in atrocities. Look over my past post on the Catholic church and I describe them in equally derogatory ways.

Apologies Eddy ,I wasn't referring to you,I find your posts balanced and thought provoking. .

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Matt Barrett wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

Churchills right hand man was an Irishman, and people from practically every country in the world served under him and found him fair. 100,000 Irishmen who served under him and who volunteered to do so, had no complaints.

So what Jan?

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

Jesus, that's some whitewashing of history, Rob. Suppose the plantations were just the same as having a few pals over for a sleepover, the native Irish were never oppressed, no attempt was made to destroy the native culture and everyone was just a happy British citizen over here until those damn IRA ones stirred everything up with a pesky uprising?

Some people born in Ireland were certainly willing parts of the empire, part of the home nations etc, but normal every day people were much the same as any colonised people. Granted, your own working class hardly had a holiday lifestyle either.

Fionn,back then my ancestors were still in Donegal and Crossmaglen.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Matt Barrett wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

Churchills right hand man was an Irishman, and people from practically every country in the world served under him and found him fair. 100,000 Irishmen who served under him and who volunteered to do so, had no complaints.

So what Jan?

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

Jesus, that's some whitewashing of history, Rob. Suppose the plantations were just the same as having a few pals over for a sleepover, the native Irish were never oppressed, no attempt was made to destroy the native culture and everyone was just a happy British citizen over here until those damn IRA ones stirred everything up with a pesky uprising?

Some people born in Ireland were certainly willing parts of the empire, part of the home nations etc, but normal every day people were much the same as any colonised people. Granted, your own working class hardly had a holiday lifestyle either.

Fionn,back then my ancestors were still in Donegal and Crossmaglen.

I'm not holding you personally responsible, Rob! Back then, some of my ancestors were, 'those dastardly Brits' responsible! We've disagreed on a fair few things, sometimes with a little snark going both ways, but I'd like to think you at least recognise that I don't actually have a personal problem with British people, or the entirety of the British state even, my criticisms are for specific people and events.

I'm saying that it's a bit ridiculous to paint the Irish as willing, equal parts of the British empire. The native Irish at the time certainly weren't, and repeated pushes for reform, home rule and eventually an uprising demonstrate they certainly weren't willing! We're all aware the world was a different place 800 years ago, colonialism and, 'might is right' was the norm, but surely you can see when providing conjecture on the opinions of a colonised and historically oppressed people, supplanted from their homes, and their political voice limited to those who pushed them off in the first place.....you're not really going to get an accurate picture based on what those political voices say?

Odhinn

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

....wtf?

FrancieBrady

Odhinn wrote: »

....wtf?

It's were the person ranting about people saying nasty things about the actual facts of his history, willfully misrepresents ours.
You could not invent these people.

RobMc59

Odhinn wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Ireland was a willing participant in Empire and that is expected as Ireland was a home nation.

....wtf?

Duke of Wellington,Kitchener,Churchill's right hand man-ALL Irish willing participants. Hundreds of thousands of Irish soldiers took the king ir queens shilling or do you wish to airbrush that out of Ireland's history?
I've said Britain did some shameful things but you should also admit Ireland wasn't dragged kicking and screaming.