The glorious 12th

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

That is your opinion, but it is at variance with the facts. This is what the GFA says:

"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

The legal position is that you are born British if you are born in the UK, but it is your birthright to identify yourself as Irish by choice. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this but you guys are like the camel with the head in the sand.

'Identify' is the key word there blanch. You cannot 'identify' as anything until you know the difference.

Take two men from Belfast, a city in Ireland - you can say with certainty that both of them are from Ireland, you have to ask both of them what their 'identity' is. That is why 'flags' and kerbstones are important to some. They are visually telling you what their identity is.

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

That is your opinion, but it is at variance with the facts. This is what the GFA says:

"recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

The legal position is that you are born British if you are born in the UK, but it is your birthright to identify yourself as Irish by choice. I don't know how many times I have had to explain this but you guys are like the camel with the head in the sand.

It's their right, yes. Beyond them being born on the island of Ireland. We can't be complaining about inferiority complexes as regards the British Isles on one hand and denying the geography of the island of Ireland on the other, why that's practically hypocritical.
You can be a British person from the U.K. born in Ireland. You don't have to get down to the Wolfe Tones to accept where you were born, regardless of the current jurisdiction that portion of Ulster currently falls under.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Identify' is the key word there blanch. You cannot 'identify' as anything until you know the difference.

Take two men from Belfast, a city in Ireland - you can say with certainty that both of them are from Ireland, you have to ask both of them what their 'identity' is. That is why 'flags' and kerbstones are important to some. They are visually telling you what their identity is.

You know with legal certainty the minute they are born that they are British citizens. That is all. They can choose to identify as Irish or British or as we increasingly find, both.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's their right, yes. Beyond them being born on the island of Ireland. We can't be complaining about inferiority complexes as regards the British Isles on one hand and denying the geography of the island of Ireland on the other, why that's practically hypocritical.
You can be a British person from the U.K. born in Ireland. You don't have to get down to the Wolfe Tones to accept where you were born, regardless of the current jurisdiction that portion of Ulster currently falls under.

Jurisdiction is what matters for citizenship, that is the whole point.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

You know with legal certainty the minute they are born that they are British citizens. That is all. They can choose to identify as Irish or British or as we increasingly find, both.

That's straight out of the partitionist handbook.

maccored

blanch152 wrote: »

You know with legal certainty the minute they are born that they are British citizens. That is all. They can choose to identify as Irish or British or as we increasingly find, both.

what are you on about with 'legal certainty? the 'legal certainty' is if parents decide their child is born irish, then the child is irish. if they parents wish to class the child as british, then british it is. the child can then decide later on in life.

you arent from the north, you've rarely been there and increasing its becoming obvious you havent a clue about the place, so please - as a nordie born and bred - I ask you to go talk rubbish about some other part of the country you havent an iota about

holyhead

As it stands anyone born in the North is regarded automatically as a British citizen. It's nothing to do with a partioninst handbook. It is a fact. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. They can regard themselves as British or Irish subsequently.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

'Identify' is the key word there blanch. You cannot 'identify' as anything until you know the difference.

Take two men from Belfast, a city in Ireland - you can say with certainty that both of them are from Ireland, you have to ask both of them what their 'identity' is. That is why 'flags' and kerbstones are important to some. They are visually telling you what their identity is.

Again Francie confusing Nationality with National Identity. National Identity is related to culture, Nationality is either your place or nation of Birth with no heirachy.

If a person doesn't know that Belfast is a British city on the Island of Ireland then that is ignorance on their part. A Belfast born British national would be correcting their ignorance not affirming their identity.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Again Francie confusing Nationality with National Identity. National Identity is related to culture, Nationality is either your place or nation of Birth with no heirachy.

If a person doesn't know that Belfast is a British city on the Island of Ireland then that is ignorance on their part. A Belfast born British national would be correcting their ignorance not affirming their identity.

Well, the fact they wouldn't know kinda consolidates my point. Belfast is a city IN Ireland which you may or may not know is under the jurisdiction of the UK.

holyhead

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, the fact they wouldn't know kinda consolidates my point. Belfast is a city IN Ireland which you may or may not know is under the jurisdiction of the UK.

Legally you are incorrect Francie. Irrespective of your national identity Belfast is a city in Northern Ireland, which is a component part of the United Kingdom commonly known as Britain. I would love one day for Belfast to be the second largest city in Ireland but I have to settle for the reality that it is the second largest city on the island of Ireland.

What next Francie Gerry wasn't in the IRA

James Brown

blanch152 wrote: »

Jurisdiction is what matters for citizenship, that is the whole point.

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.

holyhead wrote: »

Legally you are incorrect Francie. Irrespective of your national identity Belfast is a city in Northern Ireland, which is a component part of the United Kingdom commonly known as Britain. I would love one day for Belfast to be the second largest city in Ireland but I have to settle for the reality that it is the second largest city on the island of Ireland.

What next Francie Gerry wasn't in the IRA

So Belfast is in/on Ireland, currently under British jurisdiction. Got it.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, the fact they wouldn't know kinda consolidates my point. Belfast is a city IN Ireland which you may or may not know is under the jurisdiction of the UK.

How does it consolidate your point? Ignorance, no matter how common, doesn't change facts.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

blanch152 wrote: »

Rubbish.

It is offensive to British unionists to call them Irish - that is why their identity was protected in the GFA. They are not Irish, they were never Irish, being born on the island didn't make them Irish, even for a second, which bit of that do you fail to comprehend?

I fully embrace and respect their British identity as I respect the identity of the 2 Romanians who work here in my yard and the Brazilians who live and work in the town.

Ian Paisley and other confident Unionists have no problem with the concept. You are too easily triggered to get 'offended' on behalf of others.

I noticed Carrickmacross is also quite cosmopolitan when I was there on Saturday.

holyhead

Matt Barrett wrote: »

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.



So Belfast is in/on Ireland, currently under British jurisdiction. Got it.

Actually I don't think you have :P

James Brown

holyhead wrote: »

Actually I don't think you have :P

If the real Dutch took over in the morning people born there would still be Irish, but they could choose to be Dutch I'd imagine.
French Polynesia; you're not born in France if you hail from Bora Bora.

jh79

Matt Barrett wrote: »

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.



So Belfast is in/on Ireland, currently under British jurisdiction. Got it.

Still wrong. They are British by nation of birth.

They then chose the nationality they prefer but still are bound by the rules afforded to them by their nation of birth ie Britian.

One minute partition is the scourge of the island, the next its a figment of everybodies imagination! Bizarre.

holyhead

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If the real Dutch took over in the morning people born there would still be Irish, but they could choose to be Dutch I'd imagine.

I'm afraid that's an analogy that is beyond my simple comprehension. But thank you for trying :cool:

Stop moaning ffs

jh79 wrote: »

Belfast is a British city

For now. Not for much longer.

holyhead

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

For now. Not for much longer.

Please do tell

jh79

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If the real Dutch took over in the morning people born there would still be Irish, but they could choose to be Dutch I'd imagine.
French Polynesia; you're not born in France if you hail from Bora Bora.

Read the definition of nationality, see which answers fit the definition and job done. In the case of NI British and Irish fits the definition.

Its really not that difficult.

holyhead

On a serious note today is the 40th anniversary of the Narrow Water massacre and the assassination of Lord Mountbatten. Whatever your allegiance the loss of life, injury and destruction caused by the conflict in Northern Ireland was horrific. Let's hope that we never return to those days of murder and mayhem.

jh79

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

For now. Not for much longer.

Maybe so, but a child born today in Belfast will always have been born in a British city. They will die having been born in a British city no matter what happens in the future.

This isn't about partition. Its a definition ffs.

holyhead

jh79 wrote: »

Maybe so, but a child born today in Belfast will always have been born in a British city. They will die having been born in a British city no matter what happens in the future.

This isn't about partition. Its a definition ffs.

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

jh79

holyhead wrote: »

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

Your nationality is decided on the day of your birth by definition whatever happens in the future won't change than.

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

holyhead wrote: »

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

Your nationality is decided on the day of your birth by definition whatever happens in the future won't change than.

And we in the North have the right to Irish OR British OR both nationalities. I am not British by birth, this right is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

While I've been very vocal earlier in the thread about not insisting my Unionist neighbours have Irishness forced upon them, I'd appreciate the same respect for my nationality and culture from you. There's a pretty significant case just lost by the home office regarding the presumption and forcing of British nationality among Irish people in the North.

This is more in reference to your earlier posts regarding being, 'british born' than the above.

Regarding the static nature of nationality, this obviously isnt true. Should one acquire citizenship of a country apart from that of their birth, and renouncing their citizenship of birth, they would legally have changed nationality.

Stop moaning ffs

What’s that? The brits are at it again? Well I never. That’s not like them at all


https://twitter.com/castlvillageman/status/1166419126828621824?s=21

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

jh79 wrote: »

holyhead wrote: »

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

Your nationality is decided on the day of your birth by definition whatever happens in the future won't change than.

And we in the North have the right to Irish OR British OR both nationalities. I am not British by birth, this right is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

While I've been very vocal earlier in the thread about not insisting my Unionist neighbours have Irishness forced upon them, I'd appreciate the same respect for my nationality and culture from you. There's a pretty significant case just lost by the home office regarding the presumption and forcing of British nationality among Irish people in the North.

This is more in reference to your earlier posts regarding being, 'british born' than the above.

Slightly off subject but if you are born in NI pre GFA are you British whilst born after have a choice?

jh79

Fionn1952 wrote: »

And we in the North have the right to Irish OR British OR both nationalities. I am not British by birth, this right is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

While I've been very vocal earlier in the thread about not insisting my Unionist neighbours have Irishness forced upon them, I'd appreciate the same respect for my nationality and culture from you.

This is more in reference to your earlier posts regarding being, 'british born' than the above.

You mean about Michelle O Neil?

Your taking what i said out of context. Francie was trying to force a nationality on another poster and i was just showing how the definition of nationality could also be used to force a nationality on Irish nationals born in NI. If you had read my other posts you would of seen that i see either nationality as equally valid. Geography doesn't thrump nation of birth and vice versa.

Stop moaning ffs

holyhead wrote: »

On a serious note today is the 40th anniversary of the Narrow Water massacre and the assassination of Lord Mountbatten. Whatever your allegiance the loss of life, injury and destruction caused by the conflict in Northern Ireland was horrific. Let's hope that we never return to those days of murder and mayhem.

He was a child rapist. He got off lightly by his death being too sudden. Agree that we should never go back there. But paedophiles deserve slow painful never ending torture. Speaking as a victim of one.

riffmongous

jh79 wrote: »

Your nationality is decided on the day of your birth by definition whatever happens in the future won't change than.

Not too many Rhodesians going around nowadays is there?