The glorious 12th

jh79

RobMc59 wrote: »

Slightly off subject but if you are born in NI pre GFA are you British whilst born after have a choice?

I would say yes but disputed due to the the Irish constituition at the time.

But the GFA removed that so now the nation of Birth is Britian with no ambiguity.

jh79

riffmongous wrote: »

Not too many Rhodesians going around nowadays is there?

Would they not be dead by now!

Look it's a definition , you might not like the answer but that doesn't change it.

FrancieBrady

holyhead wrote: »

Legally you are incorrect Francie. Irrespective of your national identity Belfast is a city in Northern Ireland, which is a component part of the United Kingdom commonly known as Britain. I would love one day for Belfast to be the second largest city in Ireland but I have to settle for the reality that it is the second largest city on the island of Ireland.

What next Francie Gerry wasn't in the IRA

jh79 wrote: »

How does it consolidate your point? Ignorance, no matter how common, doesn't change facts.

I'm laughing here at the gyrations and limbo dancing.

We are talking about WHERE you are born.

Not 'identity' which is an assumed thing, nor citizenship or nationality which are legal and jurisdictional issues.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I'm laughing here at the gyrations and limbo dancing.

We are talking about WHERE you are born.

Not 'identity' which is an assumed thing, nor citizenship or nationality which are legal and jurisdictional issues.

This is still the same old nonsense that nationality is primarily based on geography isn't it?

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

jh79 wrote: »

holyhead wrote: »

Not quite sure if that holds true for ever amen. Someone born in Belgrade pre 1990 was born in Yugoslavia. Someone born there in 2000 was born in Serbia.

Your nationality is decided on the day of your birth by definition whatever happens in the future won't change than.

And we in the North have the right to Irish OR British OR both nationalities. I am not British by birth, this right is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

While I've been very vocal earlier in the thread about not insisting my Unionist neighbours have Irishness forced upon them, I'd appreciate the same respect for my nationality and culture from you. There's a pretty significant case just lost by the home office regarding the presumption and forcing of British nationality among Irish people in the North.

This is more in reference to your earlier posts regarding being, 'british born' than the above.

Slightly off subject but if you are born in NI pre GFA are you British whilst born after have a choice?

No, Rob. I've had an Irish passport and Irish citizenship through my entire life. Pre GFA, the British government did assume British citizenship on my behalf. Since then, they accept that this is wrong, and I have the right to choose my nationality, or to dual nationality.

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

And we in the North have the right to Irish OR British OR both nationalities. I am not British by birth, this right is enshrined in the Good Friday Agreement.

While I've been very vocal earlier in the thread about not insisting my Unionist neighbours have Irishness forced upon them, I'd appreciate the same respect for my nationality and culture from you.

This is more in reference to your earlier posts regarding being, 'british born' than the above.

You mean about Michelle O Neil?

Your taking what i said out of context. Francie was trying to force a nationality on another poster and i was just showing how the definition of nationality could also be used to force a nationality on Irish nationals born in NI. If you had read my other posts you would of seen that i see either nationality as equally valid. Geography doesn't thrump nation of birth and vice versa.

I dont think I was taking it out of context at all, your continued insistence regarding my, 'British' birth demonstrates this. I wasn't born in Britain. I was born in Ireland. I accept that the North is part of the United Kingdom (this was disputed at the time of my birth, but a compromise has been found via the GFA), which gives my Unionist neighbours the right to identify as exclusively British, but absolutely doesn't change the fact that I was not born in Britain.

Regarding the court case, nothing to do with Michelle O'Neil - a Derry woman has just had a ruling regarding the Home Office attributing British citizenship upon her for a visa for her US born husband. The home office, in what seems a total disrespect towards the GFA are continuing to appeal it.
https://www.thejournal.ie/good-friday-agreement-2-4400368-Jan2019/

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

This is still the same old nonsense that nationality is primarily based on geography isn't it?

Has the island changed name? No...it is still Ireland. What are people born on an island called Ireland called...the Irish.
How many identities are living on this island called Ireland is a different thing.
How many nationalities are living on the island of Ireland = multiples.

blanch152

Matt Barrett wrote: »

There's a unique duality though. They can choose to be Irish or British, but Irish born by longitude and latitude.

Nonsense, pure nonsense, but very funny.

jh79

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I dont think I was taking it out of context at all, your continued insistence regarding my, 'British' birth demonstrates this. I wasn't born in Britain. I was born in Ireland. I accept that the North is part of the United Kingdom (this was disputed at the time of my birth, but a compromise has been found via the GFA), which gives my Unionist neighbours the right to identify as exclusively British, but absolutely doesn't change the fact that I was not born in Britain.

Regarding the court case, nothing to do with Michelle O'Neil - a Derry woman has just had a ruling regarding the Home Office attributing British citizenship upon her for a visa for her US born husband. The home office, in what seems a total disrespect towards the GFA are continuing to appeal it.
https://www.thejournal.ie/good-friday-agreement-2-4400368-Jan2019/

Did i speak to you directly?

Francie claimed a British national from NI was in fact Irish who identifed as British. They are not, they are British.

I then said that one could say MON is a British woman who identifies as Irish. But she isn't, she is Irish.

Belfast is a British City on the Island of Ireland. Therefore a person born their can be either Irish or British based on the definition of nationality.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

Did i speak to you directly?

Francie claimed a British national from NI was in fact Irish who identifed as British. They are not, they are British.

I then said that one could say MON is a British woman who identifies as Irish. But she isn't, she is Irish.

Belfast is a British City on the Island of Ireland. Therefore a person born their can be either Irish or British based on the definition of nationality.

There isn't a person on this earth that was born with an 'identity'...it is assumed after time.

The island of Ireland was here first and those born on it are Irish first then assume an identity.
That the British have control of part of it is immaterial...that doesn't change the FACT that it is Ireland.

Paisley, Trimble etc all understood this and had no beef with it.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Has the island changed name? No...it is still Ireland. What are people born on an island called Ireland called...the Irish.
How many identities are living on this island called Ireland is a different thing.
How many nationalities are living on the island of Ireland = multiples.

And as i've already said Belfast is a British city therefore British people are also born on the Island of Ireland. They don't identify as Brtish they are British by birth.

Partition and its acceptance by the GFA means there are 2 correct answers to nationality through birth.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There isn't a person on this earth that was born with an 'identity'...it is assumed after time.

The island of Ireland was here first and those born on it are Irish first then assume an identity.
That the British have control of part of it is immaterial...that doesn't change the FACT that it is Ireland.

Paisley, Trimble etc all understood this and had no beef with it.

I just see a definition and what fits.

Nationality is either place or nation of birth. End of. Their is no heirachy in the definition of nationality.

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Has the island changed name? No...it is still Ireland. What are people born on an island called Ireland called...the Irish.
How many identities are living on this island called Ireland is a different thing.
How many nationalities are living on the island of Ireland = multiples.

And as i've already said Belfast is a British city therefore British people are also born on the Island of Ireland. They don't identify as Brtish they are British by birth.

Partition and its acceptance by the GFA means there are 2 correct answers to nationality through birth.

Belfast is a Northern Irish city, in the United Kingdom, on the island of Ireland. It's people are British OR Irish OR both. Britain is a separate landmass, Belfast is not in Britain.

jh79

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Belfast is a Northern Irish city, in the United Kingdom, on the island of Ireland. It's people are British OR Irish OR both. Britain is a separate landmass, Belfast is not in Britain.

It's Francie, not me, that doesn't believe a person can be born British on the Island of Ireland . He claims they only "identify" as British.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Belfast is a Northern Irish city, in the United Kingdom, on the island of Ireland. It's people are British OR Irish OR both. Britain is a separate landmass, Belfast is not in Britain.

Andthe GFA constantly refers to the 'the people of Ireland'...who are the Irish.
It enshrines a birthright to identify as British or Irish.

Until you activate that birthright you are a 'person of Ireland' i.e. Irish.

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Andthe GFA constantly refers to the 'the people of Ireland'...who are the Irish.
It enshrines a birthright to identify as British or Irish.

Until you activate that birthright you are a 'person of Ireland' i.e. Irish.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity

holyhead

Is it possible to identify as Northern Irish. Welsh people carry British passports but still identify first and foremost as Welsh.

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Belfast is a Northern Irish city, in the United Kingdom, on the island of Ireland. It's people are British OR Irish OR both. Britain is a separate landmass, Belfast is not in Britain.

It's Francie, not me, that doesn't believe a person can be born British on the Island of Ireland . He claims they only "identify" as British.

Yet to, 'prove him wrong' you keep insisting that I'm British born. Pot, kettle.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Belfast is a Northern Irish city, in the United Kingdom, on the island of Ireland. It's people are British OR Irish OR both. Britain is a separate landmass, Belfast is not in Britain.

Andthe GFA constantly refers to the 'the people of Ireland'...who are the Irish.
It enshrines a birthright to identify as British or Irish.

Until you activate that birthright you are a 'person of Ireland' i.e. Irish.

The GFA references the people of Ireland, not the Irish people, Francie. It's an important distinction, and very intentional phrasing.

holyhead

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The GFA references the people of Ireland, not the Irish people, Francie. It's an important distinction, and very intentional phrasing.

That's interesting. To me the people of Ireland refers to the 26 counties. The people on the island of Ireland refers to the 32 counties.

Fionn1952

holyhead wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The GFA references the people of Ireland, not the Irish people, Francie. It's an important distinction, and very intentional phrasing.

That's interesting. To me the people of Ireland refers to the 26 counties. The people on the island of Ireland refers to the 32 counties.

The context of the GFA makes it very clear it is referring to the people from all 32 counties.

Is my Irish passport any less Irish than yours because my county was abandoned during partition?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There isn't a person on this earth that was born with an 'identity'...it is assumed after time.

The island of Ireland was here first and those born on it are Irish first then assume an identity.
That the British have control of part of it is immaterial...that doesn't change the FACT that it is Ireland.

Paisley, Trimble etc all understood this and had no beef with it.

Nonsense, more nonsense. So sad that you have to keep posting it to maintain some sort of deluded position on Irishness. Until posters like you shake off your inferiority complexes, fear and actually gain some self-confidence, you will continue to rely on twisted definitions and gyrating to boost your insecurities.

To me, it is simple. Who cares if these islands are called the British Isles? I’m Irish and I know it and I am not going to be bothered by what they are called and I’m not going to raise objections to the traditional name out of any insecurity.

Similarly, legally someone born in the UK is a British citizen but can identify as British, Irish or both. I am not so insecure about my Irish identity or theirs that I have to maintain a fiction that everyone born on this island is automatically Irish.

Keep deluding yourselves, but it would be nice if you shrugged off your inferiority complexes and showed some confidence in your Irishness.

jh79

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yet to, 'prove him wrong' you keep insisting that I'm British born. Pot, kettle.

Wasn't aware i did that.

Could you quote the post?

holyhead

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The context of the GFA makes it very clear it is referring to the people from all 32 counties.

Is my Irish passport any less Irish than yours because my county was abandoned during partition?

Whether you accept it or not, I'm assuming you live in the north, you are living in Britain as much as a Welsh person is. Whether your county was abandoned or not it is now in Britain and will remain so until such time as the majority of the people in N.I. vote to re-unite with the Republic.

An Irish passport is an Irish passport none superior to another.

Fionn1952

holyhead wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

The context of the GFA makes it very clear it is referring to the people from all 32 counties.

Is my Irish passport any less Irish than yours because my county was abandoned during partition?

Whether you accept it or not, I'm assuming you live in the north, you are living in Britain as much as a Welsh person is. Whether your county was abandoned or not it is now in Britain and will remain so until such time as the majority of the people in N.I. vote to re-unite with the Republic.

An Irish passport is an Irish passport none superior to another.

You'd be wrong on multiple counts. I was born in the North, which is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you'll notice Northern Ireland is distinct from Great Britain. Northern Ireland is not Britain, it has never been Britain and never will be.

I fully accept the right of my Unionist neighbours to identify as having a British nationality, and that they were born in the United Kingdom, but to say they were born in Britain is incorrect.

Moving past that, I do not live in the North. I actually live in Meath (though up until a few months ago, I was in Blanch, so likely not too far away from a fellow poster on this thread).

holyhead

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You'd be wrong on multiple counts. I was born in the North, which is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you'll notice Northern Ireland is distinct from Great Britain. Northern Ireland is not Britain, it has never been Britain and never will be.

I fully accept the right of my Unionist neighbours to identify as having a British nationality, and that they were born in the United Kingdom, but to say they were born in Britain is incorrect.

Moving past that, I do not live in the North. I actually live in Meath (though up until a few months ago, I was in Blanch, so likely not too far away from a fellow poster on this thread).

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is commonly known as the UK or Britain! Yes the currency is N.I. sterling but it is a variation of the currency of Scotland, England and Wales too. The currency where you now live is Euro!

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Yet to, 'prove him wrong' you keep insisting that I'm British born. Pot, kettle.

Wasn't aware i did that.

Could you quote the post?

Apologies for the multiple posts everyone, I'm on mobile and haven't the inclination towards multiquoting!

And as i've already said Belfast is a British city therefore British people are also born on the Island of Ireland. They don't identify as Brtish they are British by birth.[\QUOTE]

This would be what I'm referring to, JH - British city, British by birth. While not born in Belfast (fair few mile to the West), I presume you'd apply the same logic, and insist that I'm from a British town and I'm British by birth.

You seem to be fully aware that it's a complex situation, yet so focused on proving Francie wrong that you're taking an, 'equal but opposite' perspective to paint us all as British, rather than what I assume is your nuanced view, which respects the GFA. Your incorrect terminology, referring to Belfast as Britain (which is not the same as the United Kingdom) seems to be the core behind this lack of clarity.

Fionn1952

holyhead wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

You'd be wrong on multiple counts. I was born in the North, which is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, you'll notice Northern Ireland is distinct from Great Britain. Northern Ireland is not Britain, it has never been Britain and never will be.

I fully accept the right of my Unionist neighbours to identify as having a British nationality, and that they were born in the United Kingdom, but to say they were born in Britain is incorrect.

Moving past that, I do not live in the North. I actually live in Meath (though up until a few months ago, I was in Blanch, so likely not too far away from a fellow poster on this thread).

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is commonly known as the UK or Britain! Yes the currency is N.I. sterling but it is a variation of the currency of Scotland, England and Wales too. The currency where you now live is Euro!

Britain generally refers to England and Wales, and is often used as shorthand for Great Britain (which is England Scotland and Wales). Under no definition whatsoever does the term Britain include Northern Ireland. Great Britain is a landmass, of which Ireland, North or South, is not part of.

I actually have an easier time spending Northern sterling in Cavan than London, not that it's in any way relevant to your entirely incorrect post.

holyhead

"Your incorrect terminology, referring to Belfast as Britain (which is not the same as the United Kingdom) seems to be the core behind this lack of clarity"

I'm sorry but that is semantics. I looked up the address for the Titanic Experience in Belfast and got the following address

1 Olympic Way, Queen's Road BT3 9EP, United Kingdom

I'm sorry but in common parlance UK is Britain.

At the end of the day people are entitled to believe what they wish too but when it flies in the face of practical reality it is a head scratch!

Fionn1952

holyhead wrote: »

Your incorrect terminology, referring to Belfast as Britain (which is not the same as the United Kingdom) seems to be the core behind this lack of clarity

I'm sorry but that is semantics. I looked up the address for the Titanic Experience in Belfast and got the following address

1 Olympic Way, Queen's Road BT3 9EP, United Kingdom

I'm sorry but in common parlance UK is Britain.

At the end of the day people are entitled to believe what they wish too but when it flies in the face of practical reality it is a head scratch!

Britain is not the same as the United Kingdom (in fact the full name makes it quite obvious they're distinct).

This isn't f*cking complicated, and your ignorance isn't really an argument. Look up a bloody map.

To make it easy for you, as repeatedly posted on this thread;