The glorious 12th

holyhead

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Britain is not the same as the United Kingdom (in fact the full name makes it quite obvious they're distinct).

This isn't f*cking complicated, and your ignorance isn't really an argument. Look up a bloody map.

Northern Ireland is a different country to the Republic. It is part of the UK. Will remain so until the majority choose otherwise!

mattser

This thread needs a distraction. I'm thinking of buying a Royal Enfield motorbike. I'm not being a smartass with the Royal bit.
Just wondering if there's any bikers on here.

Fionn1952

holyhead wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Britain is not the same as the United Kingdom (in fact the full name makes it quite obvious they're distinct).

This isn't f*cking complicated, and your ignorance isn't really an argument. Look up a bloody map.

Northern Ireland is a different country to the Republic. It is part of the UK. Will remain so until the majority choose otherwise!

Excuse my being brusque, but f*cking duh. I've said as much repeatedly.

I'd suggest you read my posts more carefully.

Genuinely, this is bloody idiotic. You're literally quoting a post where I state that the North is in the United Kingdom.....trying to tell me that the North is in the United Kingdom, due to your absolute inability to understand that different words have different meanings. Britain is part of the United Kingdom. It is not semantics to use them as different words. It is akin to suggesting that Cork means the same as Ireland.

Fionn1952

mattser wrote: »

This thread needs a distraction. I'm thinking of buying a Royal Enfield motorbike. I'm not being a smartass with the Royal bit.
Just wondering if there's any bikers on here.

Thanks for the distraction, Mattser - always Japanese bike man myself, mostly rode Hondas, but there are some gorgeous Royal Enfield bikes.


Looking at a Bullet?

janfebmar

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Britain is not the same as the United Kingdom (in fact the full name makes it quite obvious they're distinct).

This isn't f*cking complicated, and your ignorance isn't really an argument. Look up a bloody map.

To make it easy for you, as repeatedly posted on this thread;

And to confuse things further, we sometimes call the country Eire, like on our coins and stamps.


______________________________________________________________

Quote of the day, from someone else : Democracy is a recent system of government and there was no country with universal suffrage in 1900 - parliaments but not democracy existed. Even today ,according to the Economist, only 13 % of the worlds population live in full democracies.

Fionn1952

janfebmar wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Britain is not the same as the United Kingdom (in fact the full name makes it quite obvious they're distinct).

This isn't f*cking complicated, and your ignorance isn't really an argument. Look up a bloody map.

To make it easy for you, as repeatedly posted on this thread;

And to confuse things further, we sometimes call the country Eire, like on our coins and stamps.


______________________________________________________________

Quote of the day: Democracy is a recent system of government and as I understand it there was no country with universal suffrage in 1900 - parliaments but not democracy existed. Even today ,according to the Economist, only 13 % of the worlds population live in full democracies.

When speaking English, it would be incorrect to use the word Eire. You wouldn't call Germany Deutschland, I presume?

holyhead

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Excuse my being brusque, but f*cking duh. I've said as much repeatedly.

I'd suggest you read my posts more carefully.

Genuinely, this is bloody idiotic. You're literally quoting a post where I state that the North is in the United Kingdom.....trying to tell me that the North is in the United Kingdom, due to your absolute inability to understand that different words have different meanings. Britain is part of the United Kingdom. It is not semantics to use them as different words. It is akin to suggesting that Cork means the same as Ireland.

What is your issue with the fact that Belfast is in the UK?

You are correct to say that N.I is in the UK. The UK is defined as Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I genuinely didn’t realize that Britain and UK are not the exact same in definition.

Terms can be interchangeable ie Ireland as in the island and 26 county republic.

janfebmar

Fionn1952 wrote: »

When speaking English, it would be incorrect to use the word Eire. You wouldn't call Germany Deutschland, I presume?

I would always call Ireland Ireland, never use Eire, but am forced to use Eire on stamps if I post a letter abroad, so perhaps should not be surprised if sometimes the same people abroad would refer to Eire? Maybe they think Ireland is the whole island and Eire is the part south of the border? And maybe they think because we call it that on our coins, on our stamps, even in huge letters on headlands and ships during WW2, that we even want to be called Eire, same as for example the Argentinians like to refer to the Falklands as the Malvinas?


_________________________________________________________________
Quote of the day: Democracy is a recent system of government and as I understand it there was no country with universal suffrage in 1900 - parliaments but not democracy existed. Even today ,according to the Economist, only 13 % of the worlds population live in full democracies.

mattser

Fionn1952 wrote: »

mattser wrote: »

This thread needs a distraction. I'm thinking of buying a Royal Enfield motorbike. I'm not being a smartass with the Royal bit.
Just wondering if there's any bikers on here.

Thanks for the distraction, Mattser - always Japanese bike man myself, mostly rode Hondas, but there are some gorgeous Royal Enfield bikes.


Looking at a Bullet?

Yes Fionn. Among others.
I'll get back to you.

holyhead

I think historically British people would have referred to Ireland as Eire.

janfebmar

holyhead wrote: »

I think historically British people would have referred to Ireland as Eire.

Correct, many would have and I asked a few why, they said they thought they were being polite as they thought that was what we wanted to call our jurisdiction. "well its on your stamps / coins / ships during the war etc"

jh79

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Apologies for the multiple posts everyone, I'm on mobile and haven't the inclination towards multiquoting!

And as i've already said Belfast is a British city therefore British people are also born on the Island of Ireland. They don't identify as Brtish they are British by birth.[\QUOTE]

This would be what I'm referring to, JH - British city, British by birth. While not born in Belfast (fair few mile to the West), I presume you'd apply the same logic, and insist that I'm from a British town and I'm British by birth.

You seem to be fully aware that it's a complex situation, yet so focused on proving Francie wrong that you're taking an, 'equal but opposite' perspective to paint us all as British, rather than what I assume is your nuanced view, which respects the GFA. Your incorrect terminology, referring to Belfast as Britain (which is not the same as the United Kingdom) seems to be the core behind this lack of clarity.

While i still think saying Belfast is a British city is correct it isn't really important to my point and saying it is a UK city still means British is one of the options for nationality.

The point is Francie doesn't get to decide for someone else . There are 2 nationalities by birth in NI with no heirachy.

Fionn1952

jh79 wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Apologies for the multiple posts everyone, I'm on mobile and haven't the inclination towards multiquoting!

And as i've already said Belfast is a British city therefore British people are also born on the Island of Ireland. They don't identify as Brtish they are British by birth.

This would be what I'm referring to, JH - British city, British by birth. While not born in Belfast (fair few mile to the West), I presume you'd apply the same logic, and insist that I'm from a British town and I'm British by birth.

You seem to be fully aware that it's a complex situation, yet so focused on proving Francie wrong that you're taking an, 'equal but opposite' perspective to paint us all as British, rather than what I assume is your nuanced view, which respects the GFA. Your incorrect terminology, referring to Belfast as Britain (which is not the same as the United Kingdom) seems to be the core behind this lack of clarity.

While i still think saying Belfast is a British city it isn't really important to my point and saying it is a UK city still means British is still one of the options for nationality.

The point is Francie doesn't get to decide for someone else . There are 2 nationalities by birth in NI with no heirachy.

I'm in full agreement regarding your latter point, as should be anyone who respects the GFA.

I do think it's important to distinguish between Belfast being a British city, and a city of the United Kingdom though - after a lifetime of having my Irishness disrespected by a hardcore sect of people shouting, 'Ulster is British'. Many years of such blatantly incorrect terminology, well it makes one somewhat sensitive to these things.

janfebmar wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

When speaking English, it would be incorrect to use the word Eire. You wouldn't call Germany Deutschland, I presume?

I would always call Ireland Ireland, never use Eire, but am forced to use Eire on stamps if I post a letter abroad, so perhaps should not be surprised if sometimes the same people abroad would refer to Eire? Maybe they think Ireland is the whole island and Eire is the part south of the border? And maybe they think because we call it that on our coins, on our stamps, even in huge letters on headlands and ships during WW2, that we even want to be called Eire, same as for example the Argentinians like to refer to the Falklands as the Malvinas?

Honestly, it's a relatively inoffensive one for me, slightly jarring but it doesn't bother me on a particularly deep level. I'm aware our stamps/coins say Éire, like I'm sure German stamps probably say Deutschland- yet those people abroad (in Britain) don't say Deutschland instead of Germany when speaking English!

Not the end of the world by any means, I've just noticed a strong increase in usage of the term Éire by the more hardcore Brexit types in the last while, specifically a subset who seem very patronising towards Ireland. I've no idea what the connection there is myself, just an observation.

holyhead wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Excuse my being brusque, but f*cking duh. I've said as much repeatedly.

I'd suggest you read my posts more carefully.

Genuinely, this is bloody idiotic. You're literally quoting a post where I state that the North is in the United Kingdom.....trying to tell me that the North is in the United Kingdom, due to your absolute inability to understand that different words have different meanings. Britain is part of the United Kingdom. It is not semantics to use them as different words. It is akin to suggesting that Cork means the same as Ireland.

What is your issue with the fact that Belfast is in the UK?

You are correct to say that N.I is in the UK. The UK is defined as Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I genuinely didn’t realize that Britain and UK are not the exact same in definition.

Terms can be interchangeable ie Ireland as in the island and 26 county republic.

My issue with the fact that Belfast is in the UK?! Give me strength! I have no issue with the fact that Belfast is in the UK, I have really quite clearly stated repeatedly that Belfast is in the UK, you go on to acknowledge that I've stated that NI is part of the UK in your next sentence! What are you actually talking about at this point?

I'm aware you didn't realise the UK and Britain were not the same in definition - hence why I explained the differing definition repeatedly, despite your insistence that they were interchangeable. Some terms can certainly be interchangeable! The UK and Britain just aren't!

Stop moaning ffs

You can be an unionist from Ulster and identify as British. But if you go to Britain they just see you as Irish. And you can’t spend your NI sterling in Britain either. I’ve tried many times and been refused and had to go to a bank to change it.

‘Precious union’. Yeah right.

gwalk

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can be an unionist from Ulster and identify as British. But if you go to Britain they just see you as Irish. And you can’t spend your NI sterling in Britain either. I’ve tried many times and been refused and had to go to a bank to change it.

‘Precious union’. Yeah right.

Here in Liverpool I make a point of using Northern Irish sterling I have on me from visits home when throwing in for collections in work for Birthdays, People Leaving etc, because I'm that petty

Stop moaning ffs

gwalk wrote: »

Here in Liverpool I make a point of using Northern Irish sterling I have on me from visits home when throwing in for collections in work for Birthdays, People Leaving etc, because I'm that petty

Brilliant

janfebmar

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

‘Precious union’. Yeah right.

It's a precious union when they give NI 11 billion per year, and defend the union from everyone from Hitler to Stalin to P O' Neill.

FrancieBrady

There is nothing ambiguous about the confident assertion of Ian Paisley again:

Edward Carson was a life-long Irishman, as well as being a life-long unionist, and that made all the difference… On this 28th day of September, 100 years after his pen touched parchment, we salute the man who taught us all how to be true Irishmen and women.

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

You can be an unionist from Ulster and identify as British. But if you go to Britain they just see you as Irish.

I think the people arguing most vehemently on this simple subject don't really understand the differences between an 'identity' and 'where you are unequivocally from'. As another confident Unionist knew very early in life no doubt, you just needed to leave the country if you needed proof

David Trimble wrote:

Many Englishmen… seem unable to distinguish between the native inhabitants of Ireland – to him they are all “paddies”.”

Stop moaning ffs

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is nothing ambiguous about the confident assertion of Ian Paisley again:




I think the people arguing most vehemently on this simple subject don't really understand the differences between an 'identity' and 'where you are unequivocally from'. As another confident Unionist knew very early in life no doubt, you just needed to leave the country if you needed proof

Its a rare thing to agree with Trimble but he’s 100% correct on that one.

FrancieBrady

Stop moaning ffs wrote: »

Its a rare thing to agree with Trimble but he’s 100% correct on that one.

Of course he is. Because the fact is you can 'identify' as you choose, you can even legitimately change that identity, as many have, but you cannot change the simple unerring fact of where you were born.

holyhead

Will Brexit impact on the possibility of re-unification of the island?

Stop moaning ffs

It’s become apparent since brexit especially that it’s finally dawned on hardcore unionists in NI that he British not only don’t care about them at all, they don’t even think about them at all. As evidenced by the utter lack of any consideration of NI and the GFA while they charged ahead with their Brexit.
And somehow the DUP ended up holding the reins and are holding the whole show up and have been bribed.

And the average Brit in the street is actually furious with them.
It’s sad in some levels but the dup made this crap filled bed for themselves and now the whole of NI will be forced to lie in it.

Well, up until the UI referendum anyways.

RobMc59

mattser wrote: »

This thread needs a distraction. I'm thinking of buying a Royal Enfield motorbike. I'm not being a smartass with the Royal bit.
Just wondering if there's any bikers on here.

A British one or Indian?

Stop moaning ffs

holyhead wrote: »

Will Brexit impact on the possibility of re-unification of the island?

It has put the issue front and center and is talked about multiple times a day on stations like LBC regular brits calling in saying they should just let NI join with the republic and we can get on with brexit.

That shows the typical lack of understanding of NI that’s rife within British society but it’s absolutely at the forefront of the conversation and Brexit has brought and continues to manifest all the events that will bring a UI about far far sooner than it would have if brexit weren’t happening

jh79

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Of course he is. Because the fact is you can 'identify' as you choose, you can even legitimately change that identity, as many have, but you cannot change the simple unerring fact of where you were born.

But , by the same token, the "where you are born" in the context of what nation never changes either. Also an unerring fact.

Your preference for geography over nation of birth is exactly that your preference it is not the more correct answer.

BTW, did you read the wiki articles on nationality and national identity?

FrancieBrady

holyhead wrote: »

Will Brexit impact on the possibility of re-unification of the island?

Well look at it from a 'pragmatic' point of view.

Who at the moment does a UI suit most or whose problems does it solve:

It solves many of the problems the current UK government face. Problems that will be ongoing even if they exit the EU.

It solves all of the EU's border/SM issues.

It solves the Irish Governments border and commitments to the SM/EU.

It solves the huge problems faced by business and farming interests on both sides of the border, but mainly those faced by the northern side.

To bury your head in the sand thinking this isn't going to become a huge issue for us in the next 5-10 years is foolish.
We cannot stand idly by again...FG know that, FF know that as every single involved entity knows it.

FrancieBrady

jh79 wrote: »

But , by the same token, the "where you are born" in the context of what nation never changes either. Also an unerring fact.

Your preference for geography over nation of birth is exactly that your preference it is not the more correct answer.

BTW, did you read the wiki articles on nationality and national identity?

As we know here more than most...'nationalities' are and can be transitory things.

As I keep re-iterating, if you identify as British, that is totally fine by me. But as I said way at the start, other than having different 'identities' on this island, we are all Irish.
As the GFA states...it is for the 'people of Ireland to decide their future'. Of course that can be looked at ambiguously, but what it does not say, is 'it is for the people of Ireland and the people of Britain to decide their future'.

janfebmar

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who at the moment does a UI suit most or whose problems does it solve:

A U. I. would create a lot more problems than it would solve, and well you know it.

mattser

janfebmar wrote: »

A U. I. would create a lot more problems than it would solve, and well you know it.

Snowflakes chance in hell of it happening anyway.
Ridiculous.

Fionn1952

mattser wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

A U. I. would create a lot more problems than it would solve, and well you know it.

Snowflakes chance in hell of it happening anyway.
Ridiculous.

I liked you better when you were talking about motorbikes, Mattser! Haha