The glorious 12th

downcow

blanch152 wrote: »

40,000 in the 1960s to 30,000 now? That must be among the best performances of any religious organisation during that time period. Most have collapsed to negligible numbers.

Oh dear. Good point, but you are going to upset francie at this time of night

That means he’ll have to wait until 2080 to get it down to 20,000 lol

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

40,000 in the 1960s to 30,000 now? That must be among the best performances of any religious organisation during that time period. Most have collapsed to negligible numbers.

Got the grammar arseways there. A fall from over 70,000 to 30,000.

Here is one Orange members view, not very encouraging:

One of the worst kept secrets is that the Orange membership figures are plummeting and Fermanagh is no exception to this trend. In fact around 75% of the membership sits within the 50+ age bracket, so as well as numbers plummeting, the profile is getting older. It was once said that recruitment within the Orange was like having two taps running into a sink with the plug out, however in the current sphere the plug is still out but there is now only one tap running. Briefly a Recruitment committee was set up, however the person running this left the Orange for unknown reasons and the committee has never since been properly revived, and that was almost 10 years ago.

https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/07/11/the-orange-order-an-insiders-view/

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The organisers of the parade say with some pride that it was 'A decision that took months of talks to come to...'

I think we can read between the lines what those talks were like.

More spin francie.
The talks led to portrush band reducing the bands attending from the usual 30+ to six to accommodate the golf.
A great result all round.

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

If it was my choice I would but I also understand that it is a part religious organisation routed in the Protestant reformed faith.

The sectarianism is disgraceful and really like something from 200 years ago. Can’t understand why ordinary Protestants tolerate that shoite.
Seems to be a bit of delusional thinking about the Orange Order. Saw Ben Lowry write an article in the Newsletter saying the 12th matches could be a tourist attraction! It’s appalling, a sectarian organization having a huge show of strength.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Got the grammar arseways there. A fall from over 70,000 to 30,000.

Here is one Orange members view, not very encouraging:




https://sluggerotoole.com/2019/07/11/the-orange-order-an-insiders-view/

Even if that were true, and you haven't provided any evidence, it would still be among the best performances of a religious organisation.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Even if that were true, and you haven't provided any evidence, it would still be among the best performances of a religious organisation.

I did when I first quoted the figure.

How is losing 40,000 members 'performing'. I don't care what it is being compared to.

The fact is the Orange Order is in what looks to be terminal decline.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The sectarianism is disgraceful and really like something from 200 years ago. Can’t understand why ordinary Protestants tolerate that shoite.
Seems to be a bit of delusional thinking about the Orange Order. Saw Ben Lowry write an article in the Newsletter saying the 12th matches could be a tourist attraction! It’s appalling, a sectarian organization having a huge show of strength.

Oh dear. A fair display of sectarianism there from yourself.

Imreoir2

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear. A fair display of sectarianism there from yourself.

I'm not sure how it is sectarian to call the OO a sectarian organisation. They are, avowedly and proudly so.

FrancieBrady

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The sectarianism is disgraceful and really like something from 200 years ago. Can’t understand why ordinary Protestants tolerate that shoite.
Seems to be a bit of delusional thinking about the Orange Order. Saw Ben Lowry write an article in the Newsletter saying the 12th matches could be a tourist attraction! It’s appalling, a sectarian organization having a huge show of strength.

If you read that Slugger article I posted you will see that there are many frictions between ordinary Protestants and the once all encompassing Order.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I did when I first quoted the figure.

How is losing 40,000 members 'performing'. I don't care what it is being compared to.

The fact is the Orange Order is in what looks to be terminal decline.

I can't find a link in this post, maybe I am missing something?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Trying to attract their own is the problem. A fall from the 60's of over 40,000 members, to around 30,000 today, of a mostly older demographic. I saw a bit of literature from my neighbouring county's Order appealing for members in the 20-30 age group.

I can't see how they can reverse the trend without dropping the whole Protestant supremacy archaic stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Church_attendance


Church attendance among Irish Catholics has fallen from 91% to 30% between 1972 and 2011

That is at a time when the percentage of the population calling themselves Catholic has continued to fall at a precipitous rate. As I said, the OO is performing relatively well, except maybe when compared to Scientology.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I can't find a link in this post, maybe I am missing something?

I mentioned it back a few pages ago and supplied a link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#Church_attendance


Church attendance among Irish Catholics has fallen from 91% to 30% between 1972 and 2011

That is at a time when the percentage of the population calling themselves Catholic has continued to fall at a precipitous rate. As I said, the OO is performing relatively well, except maybe when compared to Scientology.

I wasn't giving or making a comparison. Why are you? janfebmar and downcow insist on this comparison nonsense too. If you want to discuss the RC church or the GAA go open a thread on them.

And maybe try taking on board the word 'plummeting' from an Orange member himself?

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you read that Slugger article I posted you will see that there are many frictions between ordinary Protestants and the once all encompassing Order.

You are still struggling to understand our community.
Ulster Scots are known for the individualism and acceptance of diversity. It’s why we have dozens of churches and you have one, we play dozens of sports and yous focus on one, etc, etc.
We are happy with some loving the orange, some hating the orange and everything in between.
You don’t seem to get this and think it is weakness if we don’t all feel the same about Orangeism. So relax. It is healthy.
I think it will inevitably decline as I can’t see the pomp etc appealing to young people. But the band scene is growing fast. In fact I understand the loyalist band numbers have overtaken the orange membership for the first time. So the culture will evolve. But honestly it is fine and well

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are still struggling to understand our community.
Ulster Scots are known for the individualism and acceptance of diversity. It’s why we have dozens of churches and you have one, we play dozens of sports and yous focus on one, etc, etc.
We are happy with some loving the orange, some hating the orange and everything in between.
You don’t seem to get this and think it is weakness if we don’t all feel the same about Orangeism. So relax. It is healthy.
I think it will inevitably decline as I can’t see the pomp etc appealing to young people. But the band scene is growing fast. In fact I understand the loyalist band numbers have overtaken the orange membership for the first time. So the culture will evolve. But honestly it is fine and well

So it's an Ulster Scots culture on display around the 12th and not an Orange one anymore?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I mentioned it back a few pages ago and supplied a link.




I wasn't giving or making a comparison. Why are you? janfebmar and downcow insist on this comparison nonsense too. If you want to discuss the RC church or the GAA go open a thread on them.

And maybe try taking on board the word 'plummeting' from an Orange member himself?

I have checked a couple of times and I cannot find any post where you provide a link to a statistic that shows OO members dropped from 70,000 (or 40,000) to 30,000.

I know you weren't making a comparison but comparisons matter. If I said that Monaghan losing to Dublin by ten points was a bad performance, but every other team lost by twenty points, then you would be correct if you pointed out that it was a relatively good performance. Ditto the comparison between the OO and Catholicism. It is clear that the OO have performed relatively well during the last five decades compared to Catholicism.

Now that is something that upsets and disturbs me, even though both are in a downward trend, but it is a fact.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

I have checked a couple of times and I cannot find any post where you provide a link to a statistic that shows OO members dropped from 70,000 (or 40,000) to 30,000.

Literally 30 secs to find and one of them from the same source you got the irrelevant Catholic figures.

In any mass membership organisation there will always be fluctuations in numbers. There has been a steady decline in numbers from 76,000 members in 1948 to 35,000 today.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/order-must-admit-real-reason-for-decline-in-numbers-1.703860

At its peak in 1965, the Order's membership was around 70,000, which meant that roughly 1 in 5 adult Ulster Protestant males were members.[49] Since 1965, it has lost a third of its membership, especially in Belfast and Derry. The Order's political influence suffered greatly after the unionist-controlled government of Northern Ireland was abolished in 1973.[49] In 2012, it was stated that estimated membership of the Orange Order was around 34,000

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

Oh dear. A fair display of sectarianism there from yourself.

How so?

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Literally 30 secs to find and one of them from the same source you got the irrelevant Catholic figures.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/order-must-admit-real-reason-for-decline-in-numbers-1.703860


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order

70,000 in the 1960s to 30,000 today, that is what you said.

One of your links says 76,000 in 1948 to 35,000 today, which is different.

The other link says 70,000 in 1965, since when it has lost a third of its membership. That would leave it at 46,200.

Again, you were wrong, again that is not a bad performance compared to other religions as I have shown. Let's just leave it there.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

70,000 in the 1960s to 30,000 today, that is what you said.

One of your links says 76,000 in 1948 to 35,000 today, which is different.

The other link says 70,000 in 1965, since when it has lost a third of its membership. That would leave it at 46,200.

Again, you were wrong, again that is not a bad performance compared to other religions as I have shown. Let's just leave it there.

Jesus...how did you not see it saying membership is estimated at 34,000 and why are you ignoring an actual member talking about figures plummeting.

And you are wrong...the OO is not a 'religion'.

The point is not the minutiae of the stats...it is that the trend in membership is downward.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Jesus...how did you not see it saying membership is estimated at 34,000 and why are you ignoring an actual member talking about figures plummeting.

And you are wrong...the OO is not a 'religion'.

The point is not the minutiae of the stats...it is that the trend in membership is downward.

Find me a religious organisation where the trend in membership is not downward!!!

Half of the Catholic organisations don't exist anymore!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Total_Abstinence_Association

The Pioneers had 360,000 members in 1948.

https://www.pioneerassociation.ie/who-we-are/4-history

They claim to have 100,000 today, that is a bigger decline than the Orange Order, even if true.

https://www.pioneerassociation.ie/who-we-are/4-history

Orange Order is in decline - yes, we can agree on that, it is a fact.
Orange Order's decline is not as bad as other religious-based organisations, that is also a fact.

Are we both happy with the decline of the Orange Order, yes we can also agree on that. We can further agree that we would like to see the Orange Order decline even further. No issue between us on that either.

But your constant twisting and turning and denial of facts leaves everyone frustrated with your posts.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Find me a religious organisation where the trend in membership is not downward!!!

Half of the Catholic organisations don't exist anymore!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_Total_Abstinence_Association

The Pioneers had 360,000 members in 1948.

https://www.pioneerassociation.ie/who-we-are/4-history

They claim to have 100,000 today, that is a bigger decline than the Orange Order, even if true.

https://www.pioneerassociation.ie/who-we-are/4-history

Orange Order is in decline - yes, we can agree on that, it is a fact.
Orange Order's decline is not as bad as other religious-based organisations, that is also a fact.

Are we both happy with the decline of the Orange Order, yes we can also agree on that. We can further agree that we would like to see the Orange Order decline even further. No issue between us on that either.

But your constant twisting and turning and denial of facts leaves everyone frustrated with your posts.

What fact, other than 'the Orange Order is in decline' did I twist?

You introduced a set of comparisons I wasn't making, then told me I was twisting. Feck me, you guys take the biscuit.

The Orange Order is a very specific type of organisation in this country, despite a number of slips by you it not a relgion.
It is also declining for a very specific set of reasons as outlind by Brian Kenneway in his writings, the former Grandmaster Ken Newell and that writer on Slugger.

Comparisons to the GAA, the Catholic Church or some sect in America are therefore meaningless.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What fact, other than 'the Orange Order is in decline' did I........

It is also declining for a very specific set of reasons as outlind by Brian Kenneway in his writings, the former Grandmaster Ken Newell and that writer on Slugger.
.

Francie. I think you’re twisting of facts to demonise the OO have been see in their true light on this thread. And here you go again.

Ken Newell the former Grandmaster hahaha.
I was surprised to hear that the likes of ken Newell would be in the OO never mind hold it’s top position so I done a little research and low and behold he left it over 50 years ago and had no rank except chaplain of his local lodge - a bit like being secretary of you local darts club. So a big retraction needed here

As for Kennaway. He is about as far from a grassroots Orangeman as you can get. A member of a Dublin lodge which is a rarity to start with. You don’t seem to quote him when he blames Martin Maginnis for undermining the GFA or this statement “following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

He recommends the book ‘buried lives’ seems an interesting read for a few blinkered posters on here, as it outlines how Protestants were driven out of roi through discrimination which continues today.

...but don’t forget francie to retract you latest untruth about the grandmaster lol your best try yet

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If you read that Slugger article I posted you will see that there are many frictions between ordinary Protestants and the once all encompassing Order.

You are still struggling to understand our community.
Ulster Scots are known for the individualism and acceptance of diversity. It’s why we have dozens of churches and you have one, we play dozens of sports and yous focus on one, etc, etc.
We are happy with some loving the orange, some hating the orange and everything in between.
You don’t seem to get this and think it is weakness if we don’t all feel the same about Orangeism. So relax. It is healthy.
I think it will inevitably decline as I can’t see the pomp etc appealing to young people. But the band scene is growing fast. In fact I understand the loyalist band numbers have overtaken the orange membership for the first time. So the culture will evolve. But honestly it is fine and well

I asked a workmate who went to the orange March in Southport if the bands where from NI or Scotland, apparently there are English bands and their popularity is increasing year on year.

RobMc59

cameramonkey wrote: »

This is the tread from reddit about the naked orange man. I have to warn you that it contains a photo of shrunken mickey parts and badly stained underwear. Do not open if not prepared for naked man with excremented knickers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/northernireland/comments/cd1wnn/the_more_you_look_the_more_culture_you_see/

That picture has scarred me and is seared into my brain!small talliwackers and skiddy undercrackers aren't good viewing first thing in the morning!:)

Sunny Disposition

RobMc59 wrote: »

That picture has scarred me and is seared into my brain!small talliwackers and skiddy undercrackers aren't good viewing first thing in the morning!:)

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

RobMc59

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

That picture has scarred me and is seared into my brain!small talliwackers and skiddy undercrackers aren't good viewing first thing in the morning!:)

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

Don't you think religion in the Western world is becoming less important in this day and age?There are a number of protestant and catholic churches that have closed in the area I live,in fact the only new religious buildings are mosques and an Elim church which I believe is neither catholic or protestant.
As regards protestants view of the OO I don't think religion matters as much but an interest in Ulster Scots culture isn't a bad thing and the marching bands are of interest to many

blanch152

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

Probably no more exclusive than your average Corpus Christi parade, though they have declined far more rapidly than the Orange Order marches.

The OO marches are an anachronism in that they are a quasi-religious occasion that has survived well into modern times, when other examples have fallen by the wayside. Similar Catholic traditions are on life-support while the OO marches have warped into something that attracts a wider audience.

The best thing for all would be if they could transform into something similarly benign as most St. Patrick's Day Parades.

Sunny Disposition

blanch152 wrote: »

Probably no more exclusive than your average Corpus Christi parade, though they have declined far more rapidly than the Orange Order marches.

The OO marches are an anachronism in that they are a quasi-religious occasion that has survived well into modern times, when other examples have fallen by the wayside. Similar Catholic traditions are on life-support while the OO marches have warped into something that attracts a wider audience.

The best thing for all would be if they could transform into something similarly benign as most St. Patrick's Day Parades.

Yeah, it would be great if they transformed into something benign, but there doesn't seem to be any sign they are going to do so or any pressure from the community to change. As I mentioned above Ben Lowry is of the view they could be a tourist attraction, really seems to not see that they are deeply alienating to many.

Really an indictment that they continue as they are, seems the Orange Order doesn't care in the least how it is perceived by others, and many Protestants are happy to give it tacit support, despite its antagonism to Catholics.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s brutal of course, but I understand you get drunken idiots a lot of places. What I would like to understand is why ordinary Protestants are so positive about these parades, even though the Orange Order excludes Catholics and has struggled pretty hard to march in areas where they are not wanted? Why is going to these marches not only seen as acceptable, but as an affirmation of Protestant identity even though the Order itself is often belligerent and is unashamedly exclusive of Catholics?

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?

• I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.
• Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year
• The day is really enjoyable
• I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.
• There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people
• The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way
• The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,
• Just see what it means to people does your heart good
• Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.
• I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

edit* ....and i suppose one of the most important bits for me is that i live in an area where i cannot show my culture/identity in any way and the twelfth is that opportunity . and maybe in my younger days was an important safety valve

blanch152

downcow wrote: »

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?

• I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.
• Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year
• The day is really enjoyable
• I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.
• There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people
• The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way
• The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,
• Just see what it means to people does your heart good
• Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.
• I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

Thanks for sharing that and giving us an insight.

votecounts

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I think you’re twisting of facts to demonise the OO have been see in their true light on this thread. And here you go again.

Ken Newell the former Grandmaster hahaha.
I was surprised to hear that the likes of ken Newell would be in the OO never mind hold it’s top position so I done a little research and low and behold he left it over 50 years ago and had no rank except chaplain of his local lodge - a bit like being secretary of you local darts club. So a big retraction needed here

As for Kennaway. He is about as far from a grassroots Orangeman as you can get. A member of a Dublin lodge which is a rarity to start with. You don’t seem to quote him when he blames Martin Maginnis for undermining the GFA or this statement “following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

He recommends the book ‘buried lives’ seems an interesting read for a few blinkered posters on here, as it outlines how Protestants were driven out of roi through discrimination which continues today.

...but don’t forget francie to retract you latest untruth about the grandmaster lol your best try yet

Its Martin McGuinness ffs, I swear you do it on purpose