The glorious 12th

janfebmar

Downcow, would most lodges in N Ireland be Orange lodges or lodges of the Masonic order? There is a difference. In Masonic lodges, all Faith's can and do join. To join you need to believe in a supreme being, so people of all Faith's can and do join. There are some Roman Catholics in the Masonic lodge here Iin the Republic, and in the states the Masonic order has lots of Catholics.
In the parades in N.I. do Masonic lodges parade on the 12th as well as the Orange lodges?

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Francie. I think you’re twisting of facts to demonise the OO have been see in their true light on this thread. And here you go again.

Ken Newell the former Grandmaster hahaha.
I was surprised to hear that the likes of ken Newell would be in the OO never mind hold it’s top position so I done a little research and low and behold he left it over 50 years ago and had no rank except chaplain of his local lodge - a bit like being secretary of you local darts club. So a big retraction needed here

As for Kennaway. He is about as far from a grassroots Orangeman as you can get. A member of a Dublin lodge which is a rarity to start with. You don’t seem to quote him when he blames Martin Maginnis for undermining the GFA or this statement “following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

He recommends the book ‘buried lives’ seems an interesting read for a few blinkered posters on here, as it outlines how Protestants were driven out of roi through discrimination which continues today.

...but don’t forget francie to retract you latest untruth about the grandmaster lol your best try yet

Not a problem retracting that Newell was a grandmaster. If I make an error I retract, unlike some.

You can call quoting criticism from within twisting all you want. You can also shoot the messenger if you wish.

Stating that a decline in numbers from 70,000 to 30,000 and coupling it with backed up criticism from within the order, while witnessing the the public interaction of this Order is not telling any lies.

Imagine as that writer on slugger says, having to hide your membership while pursuing a career?

downcow

janfebmar wrote: »

Downcow, would most lodges in N Ireland be Orange lodges or lodges of the Masonic order? There is a difference. In Masonic lodges, all Faith's can and do join. To join you need to believe in a supreme being, so people of all Faith's can and do join. There are some Roman Catholics in the Masonic lodge here Iin the Republic, and in the states the Masonic order has lots of Catholics.
In the parades in N.I. do Masonic lodges March as well as the Orange lodges?

No connection even though the OO copied most of the Masonic rituals and ceremony.
There is a big cross over and lots of orangemen are masons, and yes there are catholic masons in the north to, but a very small minority.
Interestingly the Masons don't let women in and the OO have lots of womens lodges

Masons have their own parades usually to church services but an increasing number of churches won't let them in - and some won't let the OO in

RobMc59

The recent abuse received by James Mcclean was terrible but doesn't seem to be a one way occurrence.
https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/gazza-ira-threatened-to-kill-me-681733.html

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The recent abuse received by James Mcclean was terrible but doesn't seem to be a one way occurrence.
https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/gazza-ira-threatened-to-kill-me-681733.html

I am sure like 'Barry McGuigan' Gazza has the official IRA headed paper to back up that it was the 'actual' IRA that threatened him and not some loon behind a keyboard pretending stuff.

The two important words in that article (and I wonder why you have to be schooled in these PR stunts) are 'promotional tour'.

'CIA' :D It's a wonder he didn't throw the KGB in there...would have been worth another 1000 viewers for his doc.

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am sure like 'Barry McGuigan' Gazza has the official IRA headed paper to back up that it was the 'actual' IRA that threatened him and not some loon behind a keyboard pretending stuff.

The two important words in that article (and I wonder why you have to be schooled in these PR stunts) are 'promotional tour'.

'CIA' :D It's a wonder he didn't throw the KGB in there...would have been worth another 1000 viewers for his doc.

Of course, the honorable IRA would never stoop so low as to threaten to kill someone. :rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Of course, the honorable IRA would never stoop so low as to threaten to kill someone. :rolleyes:

Yeh, they had a huge track record of knocking off Rangers supporters.

As granny used to say, 'Away and have a titter of wit, ye mad wee bairn'.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

The recent abuse received by James Mcclean was terrible but doesn't seem to be a one way occurrence.
https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/soccer/gazza-ira-threatened-to-kill-me-681733.html

I am sure like 'Barry McGuigan' Gazza has the official IRA headed paper to back up that it was the 'actual' IRA that threatened him and not some loon behind a keyboard pretending stuff.

The two important words in that article (and I wonder why you have to be schooled in these PR stunts) are 'promotional tour'.

'CIA' :D It's a wonder he didn't throw the KGB in there...would have been worth another 1000 viewers for his doc.

Fair play francie,that's a brilliant strategy when someone says something you don't like or posts a link not to your liking just say it's made up or put your fingers in your ears saying "I can't hear you!"-priceless! lol...

Sunny Disposition

downcow wrote: »

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?

• I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.
• Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year
• The day is really enjoyable
• I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.
• There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people
• The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way
• The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,
• Just see what it means to people does your heart good
• Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.
• I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

edit* ....and i suppose one of the most important bits for me is that i live in an area where i cannot show my culture/identity in any way and the twelfth is that opportunity . and maybe in my younger days was an important safety valve

That’s an interesting response, especially that you feel most people don’t go along for reasons to do with religion.
To be fair it is not a mystery why nationalists feel threatened around the 12th and the accompanying pageantry, everyone has seen the bonfires with tricolors put on them and GAA jerseys. Most remember the incidents at Garvaghy Road too.

You also say you can’t express your identity, which of course is wrong. Would you expand on that a bit?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Fair play francie,that's a brilliant strategy when someone says something you don't like or posts a link not to your liking just say it's made up or put your fingers in your ears saying "I can't hear you!"-priceless! lol...

No, Rob.

The difference between the sensationalist not even remotely backed up story you told about McGuigan being 'hounded out of his home county and Ireland' and Gazza's unbacked up sensationalist story is that you didn't see the need to introduce the CIA. (Probably because you were only selling a myth and not a book or documentary)

Like everything I read in the media...I require it to be backed up if I doubt it.

Something Gazza hasn't done and you haven't done.

FrancieBrady

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s an interesting response, especially that you feel most people don’t go along for reasons to do with religion.
To be fair it is not a mystery why nationalists feel threatened around the 12th and the accompanying pageantry, everyone has seen the bonfires with tricolors put on them and GAA jerseys. Most remember the incidents at Garvaghy Road too.

You also say you can’t express your identity, which of course is wrong. Would you expand on that a bit?

It isn't just around the 12th that nationalists feel threatened by the OO. There is a permanent threat from the OO and a re-iteration of why it will always be a cold house and is mean't to be a cold house for Catholics or Nationalists/Republicans when you see siege mentality 'resolutions' like this.

Orange Order wrote:

We reflect on the centenary year of the formation of Lord Carson’s Ulster Volunteers, a great many of whom were members of the Orange Institution, and who were determined to defend for themselves and their children their cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom. We give thanks to God that at a time of crisis, men and women were prepared to take a stand for civil and religious liberty.

or:

We reaffirm our opposition to the introduction of any form of legislation for the Irish language. Such a move would have far reaching detrimental consequences for our British identity and would rightly be acknowledged as a landmark victory for republicanism in their ongoing cultural war against our community

blanch152

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No, Rob.

The difference between the sensationalist not even remotely backed up story you told about McGuigan being 'hounded out of his home county and Ireland' and Gazza's unbacked up sensationalist story is that you didn't see the need to introduce the CIA. (Probably because you were only selling a myth and not a book or documentary)

Like everything I read in the media...I require it to be backed up if I doubt it.

Something Gazza hasn't done and you haven't done.

Austin Stack backed it up, Mairia Cahill backed it up, Paudie McGahon backed it up, the relatives of Paul Quinn backed it up, yet you don't believe any of them.

FrancieBrady

blanch152 wrote: »

Austin Stack backed it up, Mairia Cahill backed it up, Paudie McGahon backed it up, the relatives of Paul Quinn backed it up, yet you don't believe any of them.

I would be fully satisfied that members of the IRA are alleged to have been involved in those cases. In fact I'd be sure of that, as those alleged to have been involved have admitted it themselves.

Not sure what your point is here?

Odhinn

...what have the RA to do with the orangemen and the 12th?

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

That’s an interesting response, especially that you feel most people don’t go along for reasons to do with religion.
To be fair it is not a mystery why nationalists feel threatened around the 12th and the accompanying pageantry, everyone has seen the bonfires with tricolors put on them and GAA jerseys. Most remember the incidents at Garvaghy Road too.

You also say you can’t express your identity, which of course is wrong. Would you expand on that a bit?

I honestly believe the unionist community would work very hard at clearing up the problem fires etc if they believed for one moment that the nationalists would then back of a little. I think the attitude is , sure whats the point, next it will be they want all the fires stopped.

You say i can express my identity!
I grew up and live in a town which will not tolerate any British culture. About the only thing happening is a small gathering and some poppies left at the war memorial - these are usually strewn over the road by evening time.
It would be dangerous for a young person to wear eg an NI football top and even an adult certainly wouldn't wear one in a bar at night (if they felt able to go in to a bar at all). I don't even wear a poppy because i feel people will think i am rubbing it in their faces etc etc.
So the twelfth and events like that are a release from the bigotry of my home town

downcow

Odhinn wrote: »

...what have the RA to do with the orangemen and the 12th?

I suppose they are responsible for some of the success of the 12th, as every time they oppose it people resolve to continue

blanch152

downcow wrote: »

I honestly believe the unionist community would work very hard at clearing up the problem fires etc if they believed for one moment that the nationalists would then back of a little. I think the attitude is , sure whats the point, next it will be they want all the fires stopped.

You say i can express my identity!
I grew up and live in a town which will not tolerate any British culture. About the only thing happening is a small gathering and some poppies left at the war memorial - these are usually strewn over the road by evening time.
It would be dangerous for a young person to wear eg an NI football top and even an adult certainly wouldn't wear one in a bar at night (if they felt able to go in to a bar at all). I don't even wear a poppy because i feel people will think i am rubbing it in their faces etc etc.
So the twelfth and events like that are a release from the bigotry of my home town

It is terrible that that sort of intimidation on a daily basis continues in what we are told is a modern society.

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

I suppose they are responsible for some of the success of the 12th, as every time they oppose it people resolve to continue

As long as its not inflicted on nationalist communities I doubt anyone will lose sleep over it.

cameramonkey

blanch152 wrote: »

It is terrible that that sort of intimidation on a daily basis continues in what we are told is a modern society.

That's the UK for you, the six counties are a failed political entity. I see people wearing poppies in Dublin every year with no problems.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

I suppose they are responsible for some of the success of the 12th, as every time they oppose it people resolve to continue

When have the IRA opposed it in the last 20 years etc.

What Unionism has to grow up and accept is that it is many many more people than the IRA who oppose state funded sectarianism. And it is long long overdue that this annual orgy of sectarianism has to be stopped and that they (Unionist leadership) have to be seen to be leading the way on it.

Would you accept that, without turning around and pointing at others, like blanch, rob, janfebmar are flat out trying to do? It really is no excuse.

downcow

cameramonkey wrote: »

That's the UK for you, the six counties are a failed political entity. I see people wearing poppies in Dublin every year with no problems.

Its always someone elses fault. We republicans are snowy white and innocent!

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

When have the IRA opposed it in the last 20 years etc.

.

Can I quote the person you brought into the debate a couple of pages back (Mr Kenaway) and you thought he was worth quoting.
Well here is what else he said
“following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What Unionism has to grow up and accept is that it is many many more people than the IRA who oppose state funded sectarianism. And it is long long overdue that this annual orgy of sectarianism has to be stopped and that they (Unionist leadership) have to be seen to be leading the way on it.
.

Sure you pointed out it is in speedy terminal decline. So i don't know why you just don't trust your own judgement and just sit back and watch the problem go away?

cameramonkey

downcow wrote: »

Its always someone elses fault. We republicans are snowy white and innocent!

You described a situation uover which the Irish people's independent government has no control, this situation that you describe takes place in the UK. Get the UK government or police to do something about it, it is the UK after all. Dont blame us for the problem created by the partition of Ireland,you have made your bed now go lie in it.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Can I quote the person you brought into the debate a couple of pages back (Mr Kenaway) and you thought he was worth quoting.
Well here is what else he said
“following the IRA ceasefire in 1994, the republican movement set a trap for the loyalist marching orders and those orders, including the Orange institution, walked into that vice with their eyes wide open. The trap was essentially a series of localised territorial struggles based around controversial marches. Residents' groups were formed in nationalist areas where Orange parades traditionally passed by or through; many of these ad hoc committees were headed up by convicted IRA men.”

'Former' IRA men exist downcow. Something else you and Unionists need to get over.

No doubt Kennaway has a point, but that still doesn't hide the fact that there are many many many more people who object to this orgy of sectarianism.

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

Sure you pointed out it is in speedy terminal decline. So i don't know why you just don't trust your own judgement and just sit back and watch the problem go away?

How did I know that the poster who pretends to be on here to have a debate and to try and understand, would come out with deflection like that?

Well done downcow!

maccored

downcow wrote: »

Its always someone elses fault. We republicans are snowy white and innocent!

reading this thread you;d swear it was "Its always someone elses fault. We loyalists are snowy white and innocent!"

FrancieBrady

maccored wrote: »

reading this thread you;d swear it was "Its always someone elses fault. We loyalists are snowy white and innocent!"

Note also who is desperate to make it a conversation about the IRA and the Catholic Church.

RobMc59

downcow wrote: »

Sure you pointed out it is in speedy terminal decline. So i don't know why you just don't trust your own judgement and just sit back and watch the problem go away?

He could be realising that worldwide interest is growing outside NI in the whole mystique surrounding the Ulster Scots culture,music and history.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well done downcow!

Thanks Francie. I needed to be said