The glorious 12th

blanch152

cameramonkey wrote: »

If it makes you happy to criticise GA then so be it but the six counties is controlled by the UK and they have run the place into the ground . The British have been a disaster or Ireland and particularly the six counties. The place is a basket case that can only be turned around by it taking its rightful place in an all Ireland state.

The IRA turned large parts of Northern Ireland into no-go areas for the guts of thirty years.

Those same areas - the Creggan and West Belfast in particular - are now among the poorest places in the EU. That really begs the question, what the fu@k did the IRA ever do for anyone?

The answer is nothing, zilch, nada, zero, nialas, whatever language you like, it is the same.

Sunny Disposition

Wouldn’t abuse anyone for wearing a poppy but at the same time no one in Ireland should do it, given the killings and subsequent cover ups at Derry and Ballymurphy and in Tyrone with the killing of Aidan McAnespie. Soldier F and his colleagues could be getting ur money.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Individual people joined in the imperial adventures of the conqurer of their nation, yes. You always get colaborators unfortunatly. What exactly is your point?

Collaborators?

Is that how you view things?

I have grandparents and great-grandparents.

Between them, some of them fought in the War of Independence, different sides were taken in the Civil War, but also some of them fought for the British Army in the Great War.

Do I think less of any of them? Not a bit. All of them stood up for what they thought was right or wrong. Unfortunately, they didn't have the advantage of modern technology to help them realise that people are people everywhere, so I am happy to commemorate each and every one of them.

blanch152

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Wouldn’t abuse anyone for wearing a poppy but at the same time no one in Ireland should do it, given the killings and subsequent cover ups at Derry and Ballymurphy and in Tyrone with the killing of Aidan McAnespie. Soldier F and his colleagues could be getting ur money.

I have a grandfather on one side who fought in the First World War. I have a grandfather on the other side who fought in the War of Independence. I have never been able to feel comfortable enough to wear a poppy to commemorate the grandfather who fought in the First World War. Is that right?

Imreoir2

janfebmar wrote: »

Except stand alone in Europe against Nazis Germany in the early part of the war, and send many convoys of war supplies to Russia.

And the British did exactly nothing to beat the Nazis during that time in the early part of the war, infact they were soundly beaten and it was only the Nazis own mistakes that saved the UK. It's true that the Russians did have a small amount of British equipment with them while they were buzy doing the work of actually defeating the Nazis. Well done Britain, they can always be super proud of helping a little.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

And the British did exactly nothing to beat the Nazis during that time in the early part of the war, infact they were soundly beaten and it was only the Nazis own mistakes that saved the UK. It's true that the Russians did have a small amount of British equipment with them while they were buzy doing the work of actually defeating the Nazis. Well done Britain, they can always be super proud of helping a little.

Well the Irish did **** all to defeat the Nazis.

Don't know why you are raising this issue, we were a disgrace.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

Collaborators?

Is that how you view things?

I have grandparents and great-grandparents.

Between them, some of them fought in the War of Independence, different sides were taken in the Civil War, but also some of them fought for the British Army in the Great War.

Do I think less of any of them? Not a bit. All of them stood up for what they thought was right or wrong. Unfortunately, they didn't have the advantage of modern technology to help them realise that people are people everywhere, so I am happy to commemorate each and every one of them.

What would you call someone who aids the invading power who dominates their nation?

Perhaps the termonology is dependant of the nationality of the invader? If they are Garman you are a collaborator, but if they are British then you are what? A jolly good chap?

Some people did not need modern tech to realise it, you should look up the Nationalist rejections of having anything to do with Britains war at the time. Rodger Casement's writings were particularly eloquent.

Plumbthedepths

blanch152 wrote:

Well the Irish did **** all to defeat the Nazis.

Well that's just for want of a better word bollix. 70,000 Irish citizens signed up to fight on behalf of Britain against Germany. Google is your friend or in your case maybe not so much. My grandfather was one of them.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

Well the Irish did **** all to defeat the Nazis.

Don't know why you are raising this issue, we were a disgrace.

We were a disgrace for not aiding the nation that unleashed the Balck and Tans on us, burnt one of our cities to the ground, and murdered many elected officials only twenty years before, and who in 1939 were the greater threat to our independance? I somehow disagree.

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

I suppose in America people can choose to support veterans and their families, or they can choose to support the families of those who carried out the 9/11 attacks.

Oh dear so wide of the mark

citytillidie

blanch152 wrote: »

Who is supporting perpetuators of Bloody Sunday?

Haven't seen them on here. The British government are trying to prosecute them.

At the same time, child abusers, cold-blooded killers and the like from the republican side are wandering around with letters of comfort etc.

I have no sympathy for criminals on either side. If anyone committed an illegal act, they should be prosecuted.

At least one user here is supporting soldier F

janfebmar

citytillidie wrote: »

Oh dear so wide of the mark

Not really. The majority of Americans do not support the bombers of 9/11, or any of their fellow travellers, the unelected people who bombed Guildford, London, Manchester, etc.

citytillidie

janfebmar wrote: »

Not really. The majority of Americans do not support the bombers of 9/11, or any of their fellow travellers, the unelected people who bombed Guildford, London, Manchester, etc.

It is a completely different situation.

citytillidie

downcow wrote: »

I think thats a serious question so I'll give it a go.

My wide family circle would almost all attend the twelfth every year. They are a diverse bunch, some fairly 'loyal', some not interested at all in politics, some evangelical religious, some not interested much in religion. A few in the OO but mostly not. Mostly middle-class, doing, nicely, well educated and good jobs. Mostly get on with their catholic neighbours just the same as their protestant neighbours.
So why do we all go to the twelfth?

• I guess different reasons but for the vast majority it has zero to do with the OO and little or nothing to do with 1690.
• Because of the way the OO is formed people are inclined to stay attached to thier local lodge for life and even if not in the OO will still chose to go to the twelfth of their childhood. This leads to a unique coming together, reunion, and catchup on whats been happening since last year
• The day is really enjoyable
• I love they way young teenage yahoos mix with families and grannies and everyone is totally respectful and friendly to each other - zero sense of antagonism or threat.
• There is a lovely sense of helping eachother eg 'here take my seat', 'do you want a beer' etc with total strangers - there is nowhere else in my life that i experience such a camaraderie amongst such a huge crowd of diverse people
• The range of bands are very impressive - I find myself welling up with emotion and pride at times as they pass - from world class pipers, to wee kids doing their best, to 'blood and thunder' bands making my hair stand in a very proud way
• The troubles, conflict and more recently SF blocking parades has really help us, put a new lease of life into it, and cemented everyone together,
• Just see what it means to people does your heart good
• Thinking of friends who are missing for the first year or who passed many years ago.
• I go to away football matches with NI, and in some senses that as near a metaphor as i can use - one difference the profile of people at an away match does not have much diversity eg age, gender

I remains difficult to understand why some nationalists feel so threatened by us enjoying a day out.

I have attended twelfths for 50 years and i have NEVER seen the slightest bit of agro or nastiness. I have experienced aggression and occasional difficulties at nightime band parades and 11th night fires but they are a different animal completely- but even there it is very rare

edit* ....and i suppose one of the most important bits for me is that i live in an area where i cannot show my culture/identity in any way and the twelfth is that opportunity . and maybe in my younger days was an important safety valve

At least there is no long PSNI fans blocking people in here homes on the 12th theses days, back then it was never a fun day for those people

janfebmar

citytillidie wrote: »

It is a completely different situation.

Bombers- unelected terrorists / people not working on behalf of any government, killing people in pursuit of political objectives....in what way was 9/11 different to Le Mons or Guildford or Belfast bloody Friday except perhaps by scale? The effect on the victims was the same.

downcow

Rodin wrote: »

I do find it hilarious that they burn a tricolour which is one of the most deliberately inclusive flags in the world.
They are too stupid to realise they are present on it, and that St.Patrick is 1/3 of their union flag.

So in you’re thinking that makes the union flag even more inclusive than the tricolour

_blaaz

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah crap. There is no way that everyone who buys or supports wearing poppys is supporting Bloody Sunday. That is typical republican revisionism and intimidation.

Learn to tolerate others, would you?

Ya,they do mate

Its not intimidation or revisionism....face up to facts,yous are supporting funneling money to those who participated in likes of bloody sunday.....trying to gaslight (as usual) or try claim.otherwise is a worrying level of self delusion.

Look at level of widespread support for soldier f,dont try have me deny what i see and hear with my own eyes and ears



Your welcome to support poppy all yous want,so long as you stand over your decision to support all the actions of the british army,...a trash action given what they got upto....but your free to support it irregardless

RobMc59

Imreoir2 wrote: »

janfebmar wrote: »

We were part of the UK forces who colonised America, Australia, New Zealand etc.

Individual people joined in the imperial adventures of the conqurer of their nation, yes. You always get colaborators unfortunatly. What exactly is your point?

So you see those Irish people who fought against the nazis as collaborators?

janfebmar

RobMc59 wrote: »

So you see those Irish people who fought against the nazis as collaborators?

TrueI Republicans / Irishmen, like Sean Russell, collaborated or attempted to collaborate with, the Nazis.:rolleyes:

Republicans have always been on the wrong side in history. From collaborating with the North Korean regime (some IRA went on a training camp there but did not like the food or early morning starts or harsh conditions and were homesick!), getting arms and semtex off Col. Ghadaffi, training FARC guerrillas, it always worked out bad. I remember after the Enniskillen bombing everyone in the world , from America to Russia, condemned the pira. No wonder they ended up having their arms and guns put beyond use.

Sunny Disposition

People who buy poppies are giving their money to former British soldiers, including the scum who shot up Derry and Belfast, it’s not just commemorating WW1.
The symbol is totally inappropriate to wear in Ireland, although I would think a lot of those in the South who wear it don’t mean to endorse those killers.
We probably need another symbol to acknowledge our Irish dead, the poppy won’t do.

RobMc59

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

People who buy poppies are giving their money to former British soldiers, including the scum who shot up Derry and Belfast, it’s not just commemorating WW1.
The symbol is totally inappropriate to wear in Ireland, although I would think a lot of those in the South who wear it don’t mean to endorse those killers.
We probably need another symbol to acknowledge our Irish dead, the poppy won’t do.

Indeed, the British are a terrible bunch-especially the privileged toffs in Westminster-I wonder if SF think that when they take their Queens shilling "expenses"

Imreoir2

RobMc59 wrote: »

So you see those Irish people who fought against the nazis as collaborators?

Given that for the most part they where fighting for a forign power which was not at the time occupying their homeland then they could not be described as collaborators, perhaps mercenaries would be a more accurate description.

downcow

Some shocking hatred being displayed here by a few republicans.and again no rational thinking with it.
Not wanting to give to earl haig fund in case a few soldiers who done wrong get some help.
If I was to take that attitude then I should give to no Irish charities as there is a far greater chance that some ira (who all done wrong) will get some help from my money.
Thankfully I am not quite that bitter twisted and sectarian.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

Indeed, the British are a terrible bunch-especially the privileged toffs in Westminster-I wonder if SF think that when they take their Queens shilling "expenses"

Do the people of northern Ireland not contribute to the 'queen's shilling'? Why wouldn't they take a living for representing their own people?

Fionn1952

blanch152 wrote: »

I have a grandfather on one side who fought in the First World War. I have a grandfather on the other side who fought in the War of Independence. I have never been able to feel comfortable enough to wear a poppy to commemorate the grandfather who fought in the First World War. Is that right?

Hold on, Blanch - you want to wear a poppy but haven't ever been able to feel comfortable enough? Is that down to the other actions of the British soldiers, or this supposed 'Republican intimidation' alluded to in the thread?

I can honestly say the worst I've witnessed over the years actually living in the North was a few a*seholes getting a bit verbal. While I'm not saying worse NEVER happened, I just never witnessed anything like what is being talked about in this thread. Windows being put in and threats on people's lives over wearing a poppy certainly wasn't the norm in my very mixed part of the North.

I've certainly never witnessed anything on the scale of the hounding James McClean received annually from the Poppy Police.

Always found the poppy a bit distasteful in the North myself for obvious reasons. Beyond a bit of playful teasing of an old drummer I played with in my teenage years (who proudly wore his, while playing in a very Irish band), I'd never see fit to even make passing comment on someone I didn't know wearing one.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Always found the poppy a bit distasteful in the North myself for obvious reasons. .

I think it should be worn with an apology for the crimes committed if worn in a country were crimes were committed.

You can symbolise 'apology' just as you can 'memory' and 'respect'. The poppy combined with another flower maybe.

Fionn1952

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fionn1952 wrote: »

Always found the poppy a bit distasteful in the North myself for obvious reasons. .

I think it should be worn with an apology for the crimes committed if worn in a country were crimes were committed.

You can symbolise 'apology' just as you can 'memory' and 'respect'. The poppy combined with another flower maybe.

I'd find that horribly plámásing, it would bother me more than the poppy on it's own.

FrancieBrady

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'd find that horribly plámásing, it would bother me more than the poppy on it's own.

Why?

The poppy is a symbol of support.
The problem I have with it is that it doesn't discriminate in that support. Some way of discriminating, or of saying sorry should be found.

Or alternatively scrap the poppy and find a symbol that remembers all the dead.


Ideally I would scrap the wearing of any symbols that offend tbh. Poppy -Lilly etc.

biko

They can wear the poppy as they like, just like republicans wear the lily without apology.

downcow

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Ideally I would scrap the wearing of any symbols that offend tbh. Poppy -Lilly etc.

That would be an awful society to live in. My football shirt would be banned, as would gaa shirts, Irish language, rainbow colours, biblical messages on shirts, etc etc
Sounds like something North Korea or the alliance party would want.