The glorious 12th

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Of one single very junior ira member was being singled out for production following a £100m+ enquiry then I would have no problem with nationalists putting up banners to support him position.

False equilvalance tbh mate...but like i said your welcome.to cheer on support for this chap...but cant deny any more you dont support murder (your line of reasoning seems to be that more soldiers should be up on murder charges?)

It’s you that is the hypocrite.

How pray tell you come.to this conclusion is beyond me.....ive been consistant to a degree that is unnecssary

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

False equilvalance tbh mate...but like i said your welcome.to cheer on support for this chap...but cant deny any more you dont support murder (your line of reasoning seems to be that more soldiers should be up on murder charges?)


How pray tell you come.to this conclusion is beyond me.....ive been consistant to a degree that is unnecssary

Tell me this honestly.
How did you feel recently when Adams was arrested (I can’t honestly remember whether it was to do with the child abuse coverup, the Jane mcconville murder or the la mon massacre - but doesn’t really matter which) there were campaigns include Mary Lou and storey standing together on platforms with storey ranting “how dare they touch our leader”.
Would you say those campaigns were a disgrace and mary Lou was supporting murder or child abuse by being there.
If not, then maybe you could explain why you are accusing me of supporting murder??

RobMc59

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

downcow wrote: »

Chase all the killers or chase none. Simple

What bizarre other-world are you living in? Republicans severed thousands of years in jails across Ireland and Britain. The terrorists in uniforms were practically immune from opening fire on innocent Catholics. The terrorists in uniforms should have been chased 40 years ago but they weren't.

Tom,the parachute regiment,with hindsight shouldn't have been put in that situation by their commanding officers-they weren't prepared to deal with the situation as it escalated-they had been trained as elite frontline soldiers-not riot control.The deaths on that day are inexcusable although the ira hiding behind crowds,taking potshots at the army is despicable and cowardly,a tactic they still use as has sadly been seen again in Derry

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Tell me this honestly.
How did you feel recently when Adams was arrested (I can’t honestly remember whether it was to do with the child abuse coverup, the Jane mcconville murder or the la mon massacre - but doesn’t really matter which) there were campaigns include Mary Lou and storey standing together on platforms with storey ranting “how dare they touch our leader”.
Would you say those campaigns were a disgrace and mary Lou was supporting murder or child abuse by being there.
If not, then maybe you could explain why you are accusing me of supporting murder??

Mate i dont give a balls about gerry adams or sinn fein....why you think i do is beyond me


If hes guilty let him go to jail.....but keep playing what about...all.the while cheering on soldier f contribution to the troubles

Odhinn

RobMc59 wrote: »

Tom,the parachute regiment,with hindsight shouldn't have been put in that situation by their commanding officers-they weren't prepared to deal with the situation as it escalated-they had been trained as elite frontline soldiers-not riot control.The deaths on that day are inexcusable although the ira hiding behind crowds,taking potshots at the army is despicable and cowardly,a tactic they still use as has sadly been seen again in Derry

No, I'm afraid. What the Paras did in NI is exactly what they did in Cyprus and various other colonies. This was "policing" as Africans and others experienced. Shoot men of weapons carrying age (eg 15-60) and any visible leaders amongst the crowd. The notion that bloody sunday was some exception is a nonsense. For many areas under british control across the world it was standard.

_blaaz

RobMc59 wrote: »

Tom,the parachute regiment,with hindsight shouldn't have been put in that situation by their commanding officers-they weren't prepared to deal with the situation as it escalated-they had been trained as elite frontline soldiers-not riot control.The deaths on that day are inexcusable although the ira hiding behind crowds,taking potshots at the army is despicable and cowardly,a tactic they still use as has sadly been seen again in Derry

But this wasnt their first massacre in NI or indeed their last killings of completly innocent and unarmed people


Cant just shrug your shoulder and say,meh guess that shouldnt happened.....they kept deploying them.to do same over and over again in volatile areas and people kept getting killed by em

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

Mate i dont give a balls about gerry adams or sinn fein....why you think i do is beyond me


If hes guilty let him go to jail.....but keep playinb what about...all.the while cheering on soldier f contribution to the troubles

That is a serious cop out.
You say I am cheering on soldier f. The enquiring identified that M McG was in the streets with a sub machine gun intending to kill paras. Why was he not prosecuted??

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

But this wasnt their first massacre in NI or indeed their last killings of completly innocent and unarmed people


Cant just shrug your shoulder and say,meh guess that shouldnt happened.....they kept deploying them.to do same over and over again in volatile areas and people kept getting killed by em

We are talking 50 years ago. You need to let it go.

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

That is a serious cop out.
You say I am cheering on soldier f. The enquiring identified that M McG was in the streets with a sub machine gun intending to kill paras. Why was he not prosecuted??

Martin mcguniess is dead??(relevence other than more screaming of what about what about???)


You literally are cheering on support for.soldier f (who was found to have outright lied to the inquiry)??

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

We are talking 50 years ago. You need to let it go.

Literally 1 post up your screaming for a dead person to be prosectuted?? (Somewhat ironic for someone who celebrates a battle victory 300 odd years ago,telling another person to let things go??)



Personally dont think murder should be let go....they were still.convicting nazis up until.last year or 2 for.ww2 crimes

RobMc59

Odhinn wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

Tom,the parachute regiment,with hindsight shouldn't have been put in that situation by their commanding officers-they weren't prepared to deal with the situation as it escalated-they had been trained as elite frontline soldiers-not riot control.The deaths on that day are inexcusable although the ira hiding behind crowds,taking potshots at the army is despicable and cowardly,a tactic they still use as has sadly been seen again in Derry

No, I'm afraid. What the Paras did in NI is exactly what they did in Cyprus and various other colonies. This was "policing" as Africans and others experienced. Shoot men of weapons carrying age (eg 15-60) and any visible leaders amongst the crowd. The notion that bloody sunday was some exception is a nonsense. For many areas under british control across the world it was standard.

I didn't attempt to say it was an exception and I did say the killings were wrong-I also said the cowardly tactics of the ira,which they still use to this day(ie:hiding behind the very people they claim they are fighting for)is despicable and shameful .

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

We are talking 50 years ago. You need to let it go.

16 feckin 90....?

Sunny Disposition

How can anyone who supports the killers of civilian Catholics single out the IRA, Downcow? Surely they are no worse than the British army if this is your standard?
Must say I’m surprised given some of the very reasonable observations you made yesterday.

RobMc59

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

How can anyone who supports the killers of civilian Catholics single out the IRA, Downcow? Surely they are no worse than the British army if this is your standard?
Must say I’m surprised given some of the very reasonable observations you made yesterday.

The British made a mistake allowing ira members amnesties or exemption from prosecution-it should apply to all,not just former soldiers and as this injustice is unlikely to be addressed British people see this as double standards.

_blaaz

RobMc59 wrote: »

The British made a mistake allowing ira members amnesties or exemption from prosecution-it should apply to all,not just former soldiers and as this injustice is unlikely to be addressed British people see this as double standards.

The british havnt allowed an total.amneaty of ira members (why people think this applies to all ira members is beyond me?)...they cant go looking for one for all.their troops without applying same to all ira members??


Think its like 108 rounds fired on bloody sunday,28 people shot and only 1 soldier facing murder charge...that sounds like an amnesty to me,which if he hadnt of lied to savile inquiry,he could availed of



Its ironic brits complainong looking for an.amnesty,when there was one given for bloody sunday,just not to liers

Odhinn

RobMc59 wrote: »

The British made a mistake allowing ira members amnesties or exemption from prosecution-it should apply to all,not just former soldiers and as this injustice is unlikely to be addressed British people see this as double standards.

Tough. The BA is notorious from Kenya to Burma. Why should an aggressor colonial power get off the hook?

blanch152

downcow wrote: »

Tell me what exactly is wrong about a banner supporting someone who you think should not be dragged through the court system on his own

Intimidation of the courts is wrong.

I said the same about the crowd outside the Four Courts supporting Paul Murphy.

downcow

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

How can anyone who supports the killers of civilian Catholics single out the IRA, Downcow? Surely they are no worse than the British army if this is your standard?
Must say I’m surprised given some of the very reasonable observations you made yesterday.

You can spin and twist all you like. I have stated categorically several times that BS was wrong and I have not qualified it in any way by rehearsing the behaviour of the crowd etc.
It was plain wrong.
But you can accuse me of what ever you like I will remain consistent.
I said earlier that I was prob out of step with my community by believing there should be no further enquiries or prosecutions related to the troubles.
If they were going to prosecute the guards that set up ruc officers I would be of exactly the same opinion. Would you accuse me then of supporting the murder of innocent protestants.

I have no doubt you fully understand the integrity and consistency of my argument. And you don’t like it because you want to be inconsistent and go after this soldier but eg not the stuff Gerry Kelly has got up to.

So carry on with your ‘shock and awe’ that I don’t want one individual singled out for something that hundreds were involved in 50 years ago.

Odhinn

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn't attempt to say it was an exception and I did say the killings were wrong-I also said the cowardly tactics of the ira,which they still use to this day(ie:hiding behind the very people they claim they are fighting for)is despicable and shameful .

The IRA and it's tactics had nothing to do with the massacre. The Paras were essentially there to "send a message" as they had in countless other places and that they did, as they did in Ballymurphy.

RobMc59

Odhinn wrote: »

RobMc59 wrote: »

I didn't attempt to say it was an exception and I did say the killings were wrong-I also said the cowardly tactics of the ira,which they still use to this day(ie:hiding behind the very people they claim they are fighting for)is despicable and shameful .

The IRA and it's tactics had nothing to do with the massacre. The Paras were essentially there to "send a message" as they had in countless other places and that they did, as they did in Ballymurphy.

I'm not trying in any way to justify the terrible killings-what I'm saying is British people see this as double standards in regards to pursuing offenders-if British soldiers are being prosecuted so should the IRA-after all weren't they also soldiers?

Odhinn

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not trying in any way to justify the terrible killings-what I'm saying is British people see this as double standards in regards to pursuing offenders-if British soldiers are being prosecuted so should the IRA-after all weren't they also soldiers?

But the IRA are prosecuted, generally. They won't serve more than 18months though. The demand for a truth and reconcilliation commission would, if carried through, see the admission of all crimes by both sides, but there is no British support for it.

downcow

Odhinn wrote: »

But the IRA are prosecuted, generally. They won't serve more than 18months though. The demand for a truth and reconcilliation commission would, if carried through, see the admission of all crimes by both sides, but there is no British support for it.

It is a ludicrous suggestion. I’ll give you a wee example. Rural community and my neighbours house was blown up in a no warning bomb that was meant to kill the family. My other neighbours drugged the guard dogs to let the ira in. These neighbours visit in each other’s houses and be just ordinary neighbours. Do you really think that the catholic neighbours are going to own up to assisting in the attempted murder of their ‘friends’ And situations like this are replicated hundreds of times across rural communities.
It’s just not happening. It could potentially set off significant further conflict and settling of old scores that people are trying to forget about

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

It is a ludicrous suggestion. I’ll give you a wee example. Rural community and my neighbours house was blown up in a no warning bomb that was meant to kill the family. My other neighbours drugged the guard dogs to let the ira in. These neighbours visit in each other’s houses and be just ordinary neighbours. Do you really think that the catholic neighbours are going to own up to assisting in the attempted murder of their ‘friends’ And situations like this are replicated hundreds of times across rural communities.
It’s just not happening. It could potentially set off significant further conflict and settling of old scores that people are trying to forget about

Do you honestly think brushing it under carpet and forgetting it ever happened is good for anyone and.wont lead.to resentment down the line???

You.should prob read up.on irish industrial.schools and catholic church here to see how covering up.social.issues and problems.snowballs to epic proportions



Hold the inquiry and anyone found to have lied to face conviction,like.soldier f (since its pre 74,no reason he cant die in jail.fyi)

Odhinn

downcow wrote: »

It is a ludicrous suggestion. I’ll give you a wee example. Rural community and my neighbours house was blown up in a no warning bomb that was meant to kill the family. My other neighbours drugged the guard dogs to let the ira in. These neighbours visit in each other’s houses and be just ordinary neighbours. Do you really think that the catholic neighbours are going to own up to assisting in the attempted murder of their ‘friends’ And situations like this are replicated hundreds of times across rural communities.
It’s just not happening. It could potentially set off significant further conflict and settling of old scores that people are trying to forget about

There's far more likelihood of it being admitted to a truth and reconcilliation commission than anywhere else.

downcow

_blaaz wrote: »

Do you honestly think brushing it under carpet and forgetting it ever happened is good for anyone and.wont lead.to resentment down the line???

You.should prob read up.on irish industrial.schools and catholic church here to see how covering up.social.issues and problems.snowballs to epic proportions



Hold the inquiry and anyone found to have lied to face conviction,like.soldier f (since its pre 74,no reason he cant die in jail.fyi)

Political commentators here say there is zero chance of a murder conviction in soldier f case

And when you say hold the enquiry do you mean same as Bloody Sunday for the other 3,000 + deaths.

downcow

Odhinn wrote: »

There's far more likelihood of it being admitted to a truth and reconcilliation commission than anywhere else.

It’s not the admission I’m concerned about. It is relationships afterwards.

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

Political commentators here say there is zero chance of a murder conviction in soldier f case

And when you say hold the enquiry do you mean same as Bloody Sunday for the other 3,000 + deaths.

Pretty much as possible,or else the south african style peace and reconciation commission....if the british have problems with that,they shouldnt done so much killing/let whole thing drag on as long



Soldier f literally killed unarmed people in cold blood,if hes not convicted.of murder,makes a joke of whole thing and shows nationlists exactly what the british justice think of em

_blaaz

downcow wrote: »

It’s not the admission I’m concerned about. It is relationships afterwards.

As opposed to the fantastic relationship now,where your slandering em.all over the internet?

RobMc59

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not trying in any way to justify the terrible killings-what I'm saying is British people see this as double standards in regards to pursuing offenders-if British soldiers are being prosecuted so should the IRA-after all weren't they also soldiers?

But the IRA were prosecuted - and still are being/will be prosecuted, in some cases.

So, the double standard is in NOT prosecuting British soldiers.

Some IRA members were given letters of freedom. So were some Loyalist terrorists.

Whether you agree with those letters of freedom, or not, is irrelevant.

The tit for tat releases are done. The playing field is levelled, in that sense.

So, to say IRA members weren't prosecuted, therefore British soldiers shouldn't be prosecuted is
A: Upsetting the "balance" (for want of a better word) of the GFA negotiations, and
B: Equating British soldiers with Loyalist terrorists....

FrancieBrady

downcow wrote: »

You are avoiding the question francie.
I have had direct contact with the parades Commission and many of their decisions either way are completely without logic.
The question is what is you criteria for deciding if a parade is unwanted???

My criteria is if there are objections and the public peace is threatened.

I object to the OO parading their triumphalism anywhere and I think they are a toxic organisation because of their suprematist past and their political intent, which is seen in the resolutions I posted before.
I am prepared to concede to them parading as long as those who don't want them being accommodated.
I have also said that provocative displays intended to inflame or triumphalise should be banned whosever is indulging in them.