How common is it for people to never find an other half or have kids?

Hamsterchops

Speaking from experience, finding your other half is one thing, but holding on to them is quite another.....also, finding your other half later in life can be beneficial as you're less likely to break up! There again, you could fall in love at 20 and stay together for life.

It's written in the stars . . .

rainbowtrout

Redsky121 wrote: »

Who blames women for not having kids?

I would say that a quick google will give you an unlimited list of articles that have the headlines ‘women are leaving it very late to start a family’ or ‘women risk infertility and childlessness by putting family on hold’ or ‘women are leaving it later and later to have children risking birth defects’ or ‘women should consider having children at an earlier age to avoid infertility’. There are heaps of articles of that nature and in every single one the only focus is that it’s the woman’s decision to leave having children to their late 30s or early 40s and that they are responsible for all listed above.

Nowhere in any of these numerous articles will you ever find a single reference to the men in the equation, like it’s a decision solely taken by women. Nowhere does it account for the fact that these women cannot have children without a man ( with the exception of a tiny number of women who choose to go it alone by using a donor etc).

Head on over to the PI/RI forum and every week you will see a post from a woman who is in a relationship and knows that their time to have kids is running out but their partner / husband is dragging their heels and kicking the can down the road. And quite often have said they will have children. I don’t believe that so many men are so ignorant to not know that women have a limited time to have children.

Many women in their late 20s and early to mid 30s aren’t having children because the men they are with won’t have them/ have delayed having them or they are single so haven’t met someone to have a long term relationship with which ultimately results in children. That’s not a choice, it’s a consequence of their situation.

lainey_d_123

Redsky121 wrote: »

Who blames women for not having kids?

Everyone. Women are always made out to be the ones who 'choose' not to have kids or 'put it off' until it's too late. Rarely a mention of all the men in their thirties who don't want to commit, but will happily date women and string them along for as long as it suits them. This is an epidemic.

lainey_d_123

Redsky121 wrote: »

I don't think that's blaming, that's just looking at the facts.

If I was reincarnated as woman and wanted to have a family I'd start looking for husband material at 23 or 24, you have to look after number one and take responsibility for your own happiness.

And what man of 23 or 24 wants to settle down and have kids? I met my ex at 23 and we were together for 7 years. It didn't work out. This is the most common scenario, not women who are somehow too busy with their careers to date.

JDD

Who knows who'd be "good husband material" at 23 or 24? And what man would know that their 23 year old girlfriend is actually "good wife material" at the same age? Everybody changes massively as a person during their twenties.

You could absolutely pick a guy that you get on with, seems responsible, says they want to start a family in their thirties, looks like the settling down type and you'd run exactly the same risk of them turning around to you at 31/32/33 and saying "actually, I've changed my mind, that's not what I want after all".

Your twenties are a time to figure out who you are, what you want from a relationship and what you don't want.

How about when you meet someone who seems like the right guy in your late twenties/early thirties, and you're both honest with each other right from the start about whether you want to get married and are, or are not, partial to having kids. And I mean, second date early, not a year in early. Then everyone knows where they stand.

SusieBlue

Redsky121 wrote: »

I don't think that's blaming, that's just looking at the facts.

If I was reincarnated as woman and wanted to have a family I'd start looking for husband material at 23 or 24, you have to look after number one and take responsibility for your own happiness.

I did that at 22 with a man who claimed to have similar goals and found myself single at 27. It unfortunately didn't work out.
That doesn't mean I didn't try hard enough to have a family or that I didn't take responsibility for my own happiness. I tried to be proactive and it didn't go in my favour.

Women do not wake up at 30 and have an epiphany that having children is suddenly their life goal.
These women always wanted children, they usually end up alone at that age because the relationship(s) they were in throughout their 20's didn't work out.
Not because they were sitting on their arses waiting for prince charming to break in their bedroom window.

lainey_d_123

SusieBlue wrote: »

I did that at 22 with a man who claimed to have similar goals and found myself single at 27. It unfortunately didn't work out.
That doesn't mean I didn't try hard enough to have a family or that I didn't take responsibility for my own happiness. I tried to be proactive and it didn't go in my favour.

Women do not wake up at 30 and have an epiphany that having children is suddenly their life goal.
These women always wanted children, they usually end up alone at that age because the relationship(s) they were in throughout their 20's didn't work out.
Not because they were sitting on their arses waiting for prince charming to break in their bedroom window.

Exactly. This is the same for almost every woman I know over 30 who doesn't have kids but wants them. It seems to very common these days for men to turn around at 32ish and decide that the woman they've spent the last decade with isn't wife material. Perhaps because they put it off too long? Maybe in previous generations, the marriage and kids would have happened far earlier, during the honeymoon stage before it all went stale. Now you can end up getting to that familar/mundane stage before any of that has even happened.

lainey_d_123

Redsky121 wrote: »

Some do, I know men who had kids at a similar age. I had my first child at 25. You don't have to go for men the same age, go for men 4 or 5 years older then.

Another thing, if you're interpreting blame for other people's commentary and bothered by it I'd suggest stop looking for approval from other people, be your own approval and be smart about what you want. Even if someone did "blame you". Who gives a sh1t, it's irrelevant. Stop looking for the world to give you approval. You're an adult now, stop trying to replace Mammy and Daddy with approval from another authority.

Could you be any more patronising? I'm talking in general, not just about myself.

rainbowtrout

Redsky121 wrote: »

Women are the ones who have the bigger constraint on when they can have kids so therefore it'z more likely they will leave it too late.

This is not a case of women leaving it too late. You claimed in your previous post that women should be looking for husband material in their early twenties. When it was pointed out that most men do not want to get married in their early twenties you said they should go for someone four or five years older. Guess what? A lot of men in their late twenties and early thirties won’t commit to having kids either.

No article I’ve ever read ever says ‘couples are leaving it late to start having children’ like children are solely women’s responsibility, even at the conception.

And as for your comment about knowing men that have had children in their early 20s. I don’t have any statistics to back it up but the vast majority of men I know that had children in their early 20s were unmarried and the children were not planned. Some of these relationships work out and some do not. But for the women who does want to have children within a stable relationship the number of men who want that in their twenties at all is few and far between.

Lainey not everything in life needs to be a woman vs man issue.

Potential-Monke

Research from Lancet Child & Adolescent Health Journal has stated that you're still a teen into your mid-20's, 24 to be exact. That's going to skew a lot of 'teen pregnancy' facts if so. Anyway, going by that research, people are settling down, getting married and having kids while still not 'mature'. Seems crazy. Back in the day, our parents got married and had kids young because there was nothing else to do and condoms were illegal/immoral. Now, we know better.

ginandtonicsky

LOL at all these men itching to settle down in their early 20s. Most men at that age can’t commit to texting you back, let alone settling down and having kids with you. The ones in their 30s can be even worse IME, either rebounding hard or assuming because you’re a 30+ woman that you’ve got Marriage and Babies disease that you’re going to infect them with.

We don’t live in a world where the majority are settling down in their early 20s anymore and it’s now a case that people are seeing that it’s not a foregone conclusion at all anymore. The reasons for that are irrelevant as what it ultimately amounts to is a very different dating culture where men are less likely to settle in the way they did in the past and women are then going to have to deal with all of these “left it too late” comments if they hit a certain age and haven’t met the right person.

There are men who want to and do settle down in their twenties. I know of a few. There are also women who choose not too. Biology unfortunately isn't on the woman's side so she doesn't have the same luxury of taking time and being uncertain and maybe deciding "sure when I'm 40 I'll figure it out". That's just how it is. Some people for whatever the reason don't have a child within the optimum window. It's not fair to place the blame for this at anyone else's door.
We all must take ownership for the choices we make.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

It's not necessarily anyone's "fault" or a matter of blame though. Relationships fail, life fcuks plans up, people are deceived, people change their minds. Objecting to the language and tone of this "women are leaving it too late" is fair enough I think, and not necessarily a case of saying "it's all the men's fault".

People can have made all the major choices in their life based on the plan to have children and it can still all fall through. It's not a case of lousy man bastards or silly women bitches, it can just be a case of sh1t happens.

Gimme A Pound

Deleted User wrote: »

Lainey not everything in life needs to be a woman vs man issue.

Bit passive aggressive. Others are saying the same as her, why just single out Lainey? (As an aside, the way some spoke to her on the thread about the train the other day was disgusting).

But anyway she and others are dead right. As I said recently, I saw a meme about the stage women settle down now, and it's a photo of a really old lady in her 80s or 90s. Eh... so the men these women are settling down with are young virile studs is it?

Whenever the matter of starting a family comes up, it's always always "women today think they can have it all, feminism, career, Sex & The City, "the wall", cat ladies" etc - there's virtually none of that aimed at men.

Talia Late Crosswalk

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

It's not necessarily anyone's "fault" or a matter of blame though. Relationships fail, life fcuks plans up, people are deceived, people change their minds. Objecting to the language and tone of this "women are leaving it too late" is fair enough I think, and not necessarily a case of saying "it's all the men's fault".

People can have made all the major choices in their life based on the plan to have children and it can still all fall through. It's not a case of lousy man bastards or silly women bitches, it can just be a case of sh1t happens.

Oh absolutely. There is no blame necessary. I remember once a girl I was friendly with was going through a bad break up. Her heart was broke. She had three children already from a previous relationship. Anyways she said to me "bla bla took away my chance of having another child". I thought to myself that no he didn't. Of course the poor girl was in bits but hopefully she came to realise that it didn't work out between them nd that's all there is to it.

nthclare

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

It's not necessarily anyone's "fault" or a matter of blame though. Relationships fail, life fcuks plans up, people are deceived, people change their minds. Objecting to the language and tone of this "women are leaving it too late" is fair enough I think, and not necessarily a case of saying "it's all the men's fault".

People can have made all the major choices in their life based on the plan to have children and it can still all fall through. It's not a case of lousy man bastards or silly women bitches, it can just be a case of sh1t happens.

Yes sh1t happens...

What your post is saying, be practical and accept the inevitable.

But unfortunately some people have regrets, and when it's too late they feel they've missed out on something and depending on their emotional strength it can be a hard time looking back.

You're lucky to be able to say sh1t happens and get on with it, but some misfortunes may need therapy or lot's of reflection on going forward....

It's not all black and white.

Potential-Monke

Deleted User wrote: »

"bla bla took away my chance of having another child"

Is 3 not enough without a father figure there?! I can understand a man settling down with a women who has kids from another man, what i can't understand is men settling down with women who have children from multiple men. Ah, bit of a trend there people!! A son of my mothers friend died recently, 50, sad. But he had 6 kids from 4 women, none of which were at his funeral. I just can't understand that...

lainey_d_123

Deleted User wrote: »

Lainey not everything in life needs to be a woman vs man issue.

Who asked you?

This is definitely a very gender-based issue. Women being chastised for 'leaving it too late' while the men who refuse to commit are rarely commented on. Over and over again. Just look at the posts in this thread, men telling women they should be less picky or less career orientated or settle down at 22 instead of addressing the most common reason that women over 30 are childless - they have not met a man willing to commit and start a family. Rather than men being chastised for living student lifestyles well into their thirties (most of the men I work with play video games, eat pizza for most meals, sleep around many of them even skateboard to work, for the love of God), it's women who constantly get the blame for falling birth rates and infertility.

lainey_d_123

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Bit passive aggressive. Others are saying the same as her, why just single out Lainey? (As an aside, the way some spoke to her on the thread about the train the other day was disgusting).

But anyway she and others are dead right. As I said recently, I saw a meme about the stage women settle down now, and it's a photo of a really old lady in her 80s or 90s. Eh... so the men these women are settling down with are young virile studs is it?

Whenever the matter of starting a family comes up, it's always always "women today think they can have it all, feminism, career, Sex & The City, "the wall", cat ladies" etc - there's virtually none of that aimed at men.

Because some people on here are bullies who personally abuse anyone who dares to think differently or doesn't see things in black and white, basically. Same kind of people you encounter in real life who sit and gossip about people who aren't just like them and gang up on them and pick them apart to make themselves feel powerful. No big deal.

lainey_d_123

Redsky121 wrote: »

Men are always commented on for not committing as if there is something wrong with them ans they need to "grow up" or "man up". There is nothing wrong with not committing.

Sure, but there is most definitely something wrong with not being honest and upfront about it. Dating a woman in her thirties who wants kids when you know you don't want any is vile. You're literally robbing her of the chance to ever have a family just so you can have a relationship/sex.

I know people of both genders who just don't want kids, and are very open about it. They're not the people I'm talking about.

lainey_d_123

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Research from Lancet Child & Adolescent Health Journal has stated that you're still a teen into your mid-20's, 24 to be exact. That's going to skew a lot of 'teen pregnancy' facts if so. Anyway, going by that research, people are settling down, getting married and having kids while still not 'mature'. Seems crazy. Back in the day, our parents got married and had kids young because there was nothing else to do and condoms were illegal/immoral. Now, we know better.

This is really interesting. I always found it weird that people are considered 'adults' at an arbitrary age (18) when science has proven that the brain is still developing until age 25. No wonder so many relationships which start in college crash and burn when both parties reach 30ish and have become totally different people.

lainey_d_123

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh absolutely. There is no blame necessary. I remember once a girl I was friendly with was going through a bad break up. Her heart was broke. She had three children already from a previous relationship. Anyways she said to me "bla bla took away my chance of having another child". I thought to myself that no he didn't. Of course the poor girl was in bits but hopefully she came to realise that it didn't work out between them nd that's all there is to it.

But sometimes it IS someone's fault. I know plenty of women who were strung along by someone who just wanted sex and company 'for now' while pretending they wanted something totally different. Happened to me, and I'm as cynical and untrusting as they come. Still happened. A lot of men will misrepresent themselves to get what they want from women and if you don't think it happens, you're very naive, IMO. This isn't relationships 'not working out', it's planned deception.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Lainey I understand you've been let down and treated badly and you're clearly an intelligent person with many good qualities but a blind person can see the anger and bitterness towards men in your posts. You're not here long and you've dragged a lot of threads round to the moral, intellectual, etc failures of men. It does come across as very unpleasant and obsessive.

Holding an entire gender responsible for one's romantic disappointments and misadventures is no more a good look on a woman than it is a man.

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Who asked you?

This is definitely a very gender-based issue. Women being chastised for 'leaving it too late' while the men who refuse to commit are rarely commented on. Over and over again. Just look at the posts in this thread, men telling women they should be less picky or less career orientated or settle down at 22 instead of addressing the most common reason that women over 30 are childless - they have not met a man willing to commit and start a family. Rather than men being chastised for living student lifestyles well into their thirties (most of the men I work with play video games, eat pizza for most meals, sleep around many of them even skateboard to work, for the love of God), it's women who constantly get the blame for falling birth rates and infertility.

I gave my honest opinion. Not every single issue needs to be a gendered one. In saying that I can of course understand how a person's experience in the world will impact their opinions.

lainey_d_123

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

Lainey I understand you've been let down and treated badly and you're clearly an intelligent person with many good qualities but a blind person can see the anger and bitterness towards men in your posts. You're not here long and you've dragged a lot of threads round to the moral, intellectual, etc failures of men. It does come across as very unpleasant and obsessive.

Holding an entire gender responsible for one's romantic disappointments and misadventures is no more a good look on a woman than it is a man.

Except I'm not doing that and you're making a strawman. I'm saying that on this particular topic, yes, men ARE largely to blame, certainly as much as women are. All this 'women leave it too late because they think they're Carrie in SATC' stuff is absolute sexist guff.

lainey_d_123

Redsky121 wrote: »

I don't think any reasonable person would disagree that it's horrific to waste a woman's time like that.

Yet plenty of the people who do it refuse to understand how bad it is and make excuses for themselves so they feel less guilty.

Unfortunately it's one of those things where there really is no compromise. If you're a man and you 100% definitely don't want to settle down and have kids, then being anything other than totally upfront and honest about that fact makes you a c*nt, honestly. I don't think most men realise how truly small a woman's time to have children is, especially these days when women need to get a career together to support themselves. Most women are looking at a window of about 29-35, at best. Stringing along women in that age group is selfish and cruel.

If you're a childfree man, than either

- stay single
- date a woman who is older
- date a woman who already has kids and doesn't want more
- date a woman of any age who is childfree

It shouldn't be that hard, yet it seems a lot of men want to date who they want to date - attractive, fit women in their age bracket or a bit younger, and will misrepresent themselves if necessary if that means being able to date who they want to.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Except I'm not doing that and you're making a strawman. I'm saying that on this particular topic, yes, men ARE largely to blame, certainly as much as women are.

On this particular topic, every single topic you posted on, extensively, in PI/RI, and a good 60 or 70% of your posts on AH. No, I'm not stalking your posts, we seem to be drawn to the same topics and within about a week of you joining up it had become a very readily apparent theme. However, you're right, it's not really the point of this thread and I don't mean to personally attack you so I'll drop it.

All this 'women leave it too late because they think they're Carrie in SATC' stuff is absolute sexist guff.

Absolutely agreed.

Blaizes

nthclare wrote: »

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

It's not necessarily anyone's "fault" or a matter of blame though. Relationships fail, life fcuks plans up, people are deceived, people change their minds. Objecting to the language and tone of this "women are leaving it too late" is fair enough I think, and not necessarily a case of saying "it's all the men's fault".

People can have made all the major choices in their life based on the plan to have children and it can still all fall through. It's not a case of lousy man bastards or silly women bitches, it can just be a case of sh1t happens.

Yes sh1t happens...

What your post is saying, be practical and accept the inevitable.

But unfortunately some people have regrets, and when it's too late they feel they've missed out on something and depending on their emotional strength it can be a hard time looking back.

You're lucky to be able to say sh1t happens and get on with it, but some misfortunes may need therapy or lot's of reflection on going forward....

It's not all black and white.

That’s because kids grow up reading fairy tales, girl meets prince ‘ they live happily ever after.’ But now hopefully people are waking up, realizing that *hit does happen and it’s not always happy ever afters.Probably does take a bit of time to realize this though. We’re not great at talking about our feelings in Ireland which also doesn’t help. Also think we are a bit pessimistic and depressed and maybe just expect too much. The weather probably doesn’t help either. Rambling off topic now I know.

nthclare

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Yet plenty of the people who do it refuse to understand how bad it is and make excuses for themselves so they feel less guilty.

Unfortunately it's one of those things where there really is no compromise. If you're a man and you 100% definitely don't want to settle down and have kids, then being anything other than totally upfront and honest about that fact makes you a c*nt, honestly. I don't think most men realise how truly small a woman's time to have children is, especially these days when women need to get a career together to support themselves. Most women are looking at a window of about 29-35, at best. Stringing along women in that age group is selfish and cruel.

If you're a childfree man, than either

- stay single
- date a woman who is older
- date a woman who already has kids and doesn't want more
- date a woman of any age who is childfree

It shouldn't be that hard, yet it seems a lot of men want to date who they want to date - attractive, fit women in their age bracket or a bit younger, and will misrepresent themselves if necessary if that means being able to date who they want to.

Sometimes if you're upfront and honest about just looking for anything but a serious relationship and not a potential lifetime partner can still Equate you as a "see you next Tuesday"

Where's the balance.

Although I think women prefer a guy who's honest and sincere rather than some knob running with the hare and the hound's....

lainey_d_123

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Because some people on here are bullies who personally abuse anyone who dares to think differently or doesn't see things in black and white, basically. Same kind of people you encounter in real life who sit and gossip about people who aren't just like them and gang up on them and pick them apart to make themselves feel powerful. No big deal.

Lainey, I can assure you that I know a thing or two about being different and sticking your head above the parapet. I also know that when my opinions are called in to question or when in the past I've raised eyebrows I've known that doesn't equate to bullying.

My relationship experiences have been painful. I've had my heart trampled on and my head filled with bullshìt. I've also met a lot of really good men who left me hurt and confused just because that is often the nature of breakups.

The reason for my initial post to you was because of everything Electro posted in hers. No gender is without their carryon, indeed no person is without their dark side. Don't let your hurt colour your view and create division among women and men.

Autecher

Blaizes wrote: »

That’s because kids grow up reading fairy tales, girl meets prince ‘ they live happily ever after.’ But now hopefully people are waking up, realizing that *hit does happen and it’s not always happy ever afters.Probably does take a bit of time to realize this though. We’re not great at talking about our feelings in Ireland which also doesn’t help. Also think we are a bit pessimistic and depressed and maybe just expect too much. The weather probably doesn’t help either. Rambling off topic now I know.

To be honest Blaizes, I'll take someone blaming the weather over blaming men anyday! :P

kunst nugget

I didn't expressly enter the relationship I'm in now (Over twenty years together, over fifteen of that married) thinking I was going to marry her and have children - it was a pretty organic experience in terms of both being happy to take the next step and being open to the experience. If I'd said at the beginning 'You know, I don't know if I'm ready to have children or get married yet' that might have been the end of the relationship - Who knows? I'm not sure, we were young enough - but I would have ended up missing out on everything brilliant in my life. Life changes, attitudes change - something you thought you weren't ready for seems like something worth trying or on the flipside something that seemed so positive at the beginning can start to turn to sh!t and make you go cold on an idea. Life can throw a lot of curveballs at you and you just have to dust yourself down and keep on keeping on or else you'll drown in negativity.

But just remember, it's always the man's fault...

lainey_d_123

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

On this particular topic, every single topic you posted on, extensively, in PI/RI, and a good 60 or 70% of your posts on AH. No, I'm not stalking your posts, we seem to be drawn to the same topics and within about a week of you joining up it had become a very readily apparent theme. However, you're right, it's not really the point of this thread and I don't mean to personally attack you so I'll drop it.

That's called confirmation bias. Apart from this one, my recent contributions have been about a man being deported from the US, a young girl being scalded by tea, women smoking while pregnant, train suicides, welfare, whether arts degrees are worth it and co-living spaces. Nothing remotely connected to gender issues or relationships. You simply think it's most of what I post about because you notice when I do so. But yes, it's off topic.

Autecher

I'm in that odd position now of being 36, single and not wanting kids. I love playing with kids, I adore my nieces but I also don''t want one of my own that I have to pay attention to 24/7. I am very lonely but I would never pretend to want kids just to be with someone, I really don't think that happens much. I've never heard of it with anyone before.
My best hope personally is I meet a woman who doesn't want kids or I meet one who already has one/some and doesn't want anymore.

lainey_d_123

kunst nugget wrote: »

I didn't expressly enter the relationship I'm in now (Over twenty years together, over fifteen of that married) thinking I was going to marry her and have children - it was a pretty organic experience in terms of both being happy to take the next step and being open to the experience. If I'd said at the beginning 'You know, I don't know if I'm ready to have children or get married yet' that might have been the end of the relationship - Who knows? I'm not sure, we were young enough - but I would have ended up missing out on everything brilliant in my life. Life changes, attitudes change - something you thought you weren't ready for seems like something worth trying or on the flipside something that seemed so positive at the beginning can start to turn to sh!t and make you go cold on an idea. Life can throw a lot of curveballs at you and you just have to dust yourself down and keep on keeping on or else you'll drown in negativity.

But just remember, it's always the man's fault...

Wow, what an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude if I ever saw one.

Of course it's easy to have this attitude if everything worked out for you grand. You're essentially trying to lecture people about a problem you've never had.

kunst nugget

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Wow, what an 'I'm alright Jack' attitude if I ever saw one.

Of course it's easy to have this attitude if everything worked out for you grand. You're essentially trying to lecture people about a problem you've never had.

You are a real cup of sunshine. I could just drink you right up!!!

lainey_d_123

Autecher wrote: »

I'm in that odd position now of being 36, single and not wanting kids. I love playing with kids, I adore my nieces but I also don''t want one of my own that I have to pay attention to 24/7. I am very lonely but I would never pretend to want kids just to be with someone, I really don't think that happens much. I've never heard of it with anyone before.
My best hope personally is I meet a woman who doesn't want kids or I meet one who already has one/some and doesn't want anymore.

I don't think it's that odd. I know plenty of men and women who don't ever want kids. I have quite a few friends your age who have zero interest in starting a family but who would like to settle down/get married and have someone in their lives. Some of them have found apps like OK Cupid useful in that regard.

lainey_d_123

kunst nugget wrote: »

You are a real cup of sunshine. I could just drink you right up!!!

It's true, though, isn't it?

A man who is happily married with kids and who everything worked out for telling other people what they should do. I'm not saying you're wrong. Everything you wrote makes perfect sense. But it's very easy to have that attitude when you're one of the ones who are 'winning'. Perhaps your outlook would be very different if things hadn't gone your way as much as they did.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Autecher wrote: »

I'm in that odd position now of being 36, single and not wanting kids. I love playing with kids, I adore my nieces but I also don''t want one of my own that I have to pay attention to 24/7. I am very lonely but I would never pretend to want kids just to be with someone, I really don't think that happens much. I've never heard of it with anyone before.
My best hope personally is I meet a woman who doesn't want kids or I meet one who already has one/some and doesn't want anymore.

Probably the upside of your situation is at your age most people who are dating are going to know and communicate what they want on that front, there presumably wouldn't be many people and particularly many women with "oh sure we'll see how it goes" attitude or who'll pretend to not want kids, the timeline is too tight. Being open to dating women with kids is a big advantage too. I'm in my early 30s but if I were to end up single again the prospect of finding someone, especially a man, who was certain (like I am) that they didn't want kids would be daunting, you're someone's unicorn don't worry!

Autecher

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

I don't think it's that odd. I know plenty of men and women who don't ever want kids. I have quite a few friends your age who have zero interest in starting a family but who would like to settle down/get married and have someone in their lives. Some of them have found apps like OK Cupid useful in that regard.

I meant odd as in if I was to meet a woman of a similar age it would be uncomfortable I think, for me at least. I mean I can't just blurt out on a first date "I don't want kids". I know a fair few women who don't want kids but I still assume that most women do. So if I started dating you for example, how long until we have that conversation? What if we fall in love first before it's revealed you want kids and I don't? It's all very awkward to me.

One eyed Jack

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It shouldn't be that hard, yet it seems a lot of men want to date who they want to date - attractive, fit women in their age bracket or a bit younger, and will misrepresent themselves if necessary if that means being able to date who they want to.

Honestly, you make it sound like a woman of that same age bracket is a victim for not having spotted that type of man 100 miles away and steering well clear of him either. The fact is that most women certainly are capable of spotting a man-child 100 miles away.

Then there are the unfortunate few of both genders who willingly ignore or overlook all the red flags in the misguided belief that either the person “will come around to the idea”, or there are other factors which at the time they place more weight in than the importance of having children or not or how many children they agree to have, and later change their minds.

People change their minds all the time and the idea that they are or were being deceptive at the time when they made promises they thought they could keep is a bit more complex than suggesting they’re a cnut because “they didn’t keep their promises and deceived me as to their intent”. It’s a very immature mentality frankly, but the person who hooks up with a person with an immature mentality like that is entirely responsible for the consequences of their decisions too.

By way of example, as I said earlier, I wanted six children, and my wife agreed before we had our first, that of course we would have six. When we had our first, she said she wasn’t going through that again.

Using your rationale Lainey, my wife apparently “deceived” me because she promised me we would have six children together. I don’t think like that, because holding my wife responsible for my disappointment, or being resentful of her for the fact that she had changed her mind would just be completely silly and immature, from my point of view anyway.

And before you respond with “sure you have plenty of time to have children with someone else”, that’s missing the point - I didn’t want to have children with anyone else, still don’t, and it’s certainly not the very first thing that comes up when I meet anyone nowadays, any more than I would view women as potential mothers when we’ve only just met, or think they’re being “deceptive” because they’re wearing makeup and how dare they!* :rolleyes:



*Stick around, that’s another thread topic that regularly gets started by some idiot who is equally as bitter and suspicious as you are and is looking for ways to justify their bitterness and suspicion of the opposite sex.

Autecher

Autecher wrote: »

I meant odd as in if I was to meet a woman of a similar age it would be uncomfortable I think, for me at least. I mean I can't just blurt out on a first date "I don't want kids". I know a fair few women who don't want kids but I still assume that most women do. So if I started dating you for example, how long until we have that conversation? What if we fall in love first before it's revealed you want kids and I don't? It's all very awkward to me.

Or I could just do this on a first date and save myself the awkwardness :P

kunst nugget

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

It's true, though, isn't it?

A man who is happily married with kids and who everything worked out for telling other people what they should do. I'm not saying you're wrong. Everything you wrote makes perfect sense. But it's very easy to have that attitude when you're one of the ones who are 'winning'. Perhaps your outlook would be very different if things hadn't gone your way as much as they did.

But you don't know what's gone on in our lives - what struggles we've had, what heartbreaks we've endured... if we're winning it's because we worked hard at it to keep the lines of communication open when the other was suffering and always put the other first in the harder times. A good marriage isn't some kind of magical mystery tour where everything is perfect always. It's hard work at times because we all get knock backs in life and there's going to be times when one of you is going to be stronger than the other.

You really need to have a look at that negative outlook of yours. You're never going to be able to enjoy anything in life if you're constantly down on everything.

Autecher

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

Probably the upside of your situation is at your age most people who are dating are going to know and communicate what they want on that front, there presumably wouldn't be many people and particularly many women with "oh sure we'll see how it goes" attitude or who'll pretend to not want kids, the timeline is too tight. Being open to dating women with kids is a big advantage too. I'm in my early 30s but if I were to end up single again the prospect of finding someone, especially a man, who was certain (like I am) that they didn't want kids would be daunting, you're someone's unicorn don't worry!

Awww, that unicorn line made me blush like a teenage girl

Autecher

Talia Late Crosswalk wrote: »

Probably the upside of your situation is at your age most people who are dating are going to know and communicate what they want on that front, there presumably wouldn't be many people and particularly many women with "oh sure we'll see how it goes" attitude or who'll pretend to not want kids, the timeline is too tight. Being open to dating women with kids is a big advantage too. I'm in my early 30s but if I were to end up single again the prospect of finding someone, especially a man, who was certain (like I am) that they didn't want kids would be daunting, you're someone's unicorn don't worry!

Also I am possibly showing my sexism here but do you not think it would be easier for you (or women in general) to find a man in the 30-40 age range that doesn't want kids than it would be for me (or men in general) to find a woman in the 30-40 age range that doesn't want kids?

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Autecher wrote: »

Also I am possibly showing my sexism here but do you not think it would be easier for you (or women in general) to find a man in the 30-40 age range that doesn't want kids than it would be for me (or men in general) to find a women in the 30-40 age range that doesn't want kids?

I think it can be harder to find a man who has a definite and secure position on it, though overall there are probably more men than women who don't want kids.

I'm at the age where people in my social circle are starting to have kids and it's kind of staggering the amount of my men friends who respond to the "who's going to be having kids" conversations that are arising with "Oh god I dunno really, haven't really thought too much about it" whereas most women I know would have been fairly certain what they wanted or at least considered it extensively since their early-mid twenties.

I just don't think I'd like to set up a life with someone when there was that level of uncertainty, or to feel that I was pushing them to decide, and decide my way. The thought of someone changing (or making up ) their mind after however many years and ending the relationship over it would be awful.

My OH gets moments of ambivalence about it but generally spending some time minding kids snaps him back

lainey_d_123

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Honestly, you make it sound like a woman of that same age bracket is a victim for not having spotted that type of man 100 miles away and steering well clear of him either. The fact is that most women certainly are capable of spotting a man-child 100 miles away.

No, they're not. This isn't some small subset of men. I'd say the majority of single men I meet in my age bracket are very reluctant to commit at all. Even those who don't ride skateboards to work or eat cold pizza for breakfast.

Then there are the unfortunate few of both genders who willingly ignore or overlook all the red flags in the misguided belief that either the person “will come around to the idea”, or there are other factors which at the time they place more weight in than the importance of having children or not or how many children they agree to have, and later change their minds.

I've certainly never done that. I have certainly been called 'pushy' for trying to establish early on whether or not the guy is going to just waste my time. Seems like we can't win. Taking it casual and seeing how it goes = not being assertive enough. Being upfront about wanting something serious = pushy.

People change their minds all the time and the idea that they are or were being deceptive at the time when they made promises they thought they could keep is a bit more complex than suggesting they’re a cnut because “they didn’t keep their promises and deceived me as to their intent”. It’s a very immature mentality frankly, but the person who hooks up with a person with an immature mentality like that is entirely responsible for the consequences of their decisions too.

Big difference between changing your mind and purposely misleading someone about whether you want kids or not.

By way of example, as I said earlier, I wanted six children, and my wife agreed before we had our first, that of course we would have six. When we had our first, she said she wasn’t going through that again.

Using your rationale Lainey, my wife apparently “deceived” me because she promised me we would have six children together. I don’t think like that, because holding my wife responsible for my disappointment, or being resentful of her for the fact that she had changed her mind would just be completely silly and immature, from my point of view anyway.

More strawmanning. Having a bad experience and changing your mind isn't remotely comparable to stringing someone along because you're afraid they'd leave you if you were honest.

And before you respond with “sure you have plenty of time to have children with someone else”, that’s missing the point - I didn’t want to have children with anyone else, still don’t, and it’s certainly not the very first thing that comes up when I meet anyone nowadays, any more than I would view women as potential mothers when we’ve only just met, or think they’re being “deceptive” because they’re wearing makeup and how dare they!* :rolleyes:



*Stick around, that’s another thread topic that regularly gets started by some idiot who is equally as bitter and suspicious as you are and is looking for ways to justify their bitterness and suspicion of the opposite sex.

More strawmanning.

jim o doom

I'm married 10 years and we aren't ever having kids. She doesn't want them, I don't want them and I'm generally at a loss as to why people bother with that nightmare.. beyond the biological imperitive which is easily ignored.

One eyed Jack

lainey_d_123 wrote: »

Big difference between changing your mind and purposely misleading someone about whether you want kids or not.

It’s not any different to any other risk you’ll take when you choose to hook up with someone else.