Irishman set to be deported from the US

Stheno

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You know the old saying, 3 strikes and you're out kinda thing.

7 years from the last one indeed.

Just to give you an example, i work in a nightclub on the weekends on top of my own job, i had to go through the process to obtain a licence in that area which included vetting, the relevant body is aware of my history and still granted me a licence as it some people do more stupid acts than others in life especially younger ones like myself and Keith Byrne, does it really mean that it must be used as a beating stick until a persons dying day?People do change, i'm unsure if it is better to start a separate thread on this particular matter even though it is relevant in a way.

Something like the below should be mirrored in spent convictions legislation

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Fit%20&%20Proper%20Guidelines%20(Approved%20March%202012).pdf/Files/Fit%20&%20Proper%20Guidelines%20(Approved%20March%202012).pdf

Consequences. People need to understand the principle

circular flexing

weldoninhio wrote: »

AFAIK even convictions that have been expunged have to be declared when travelling to the US.

Correct. US doesn't recognise spent convictions or anything like that. They also treat a caution as a conviction in court.

Cork Trucker

Stheno wrote: »

Consequences. People need to understand the principle

I agree, young people need more education about the consequences of a criminal conviction, it isn't drilled into their heads enough, it wasn't at all in my day.

Stheno

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I agree, young people need more education about the consequences of a criminal conviction, it isn't drilled into their heads enough, it wasn't at all in my day.

It was in mine and I'm almost ten years older than you

weldoninhio

Cork Trucker wrote: »

They reckon someone with a grudge snitched on him and it came to this.

Who are they? Was that reported somewhere?

TheRepentent

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I agree, young people need more education about the consequences of a criminal conviction, it isn't drilled into their heads enough, it wasn't at all in my day.

What also needs to be drilled into them is that the US/Oz isn't the only place they can move to ,plenty of other places in the world to enjoy or indeed rasie a family. Might involve learning a foreign language though......

Cork Trucker

weldoninhio wrote: »

Who are they? Was that reported somewhere?

Neil Prendeville show on Cork's RedFM, there's a podcast from today on it.

http://www.redfm.ie/on-air/podcasts/neil-prendeville-on-redfm/episode/14th-july-2019/

whisky_galore

TheRepentent wrote: »

What also needs to be drilled into them is that the US/Oz isn't the only place they can move to ,plenty of other places in the world to enjoy or indeed rasie a family. Might involve learning a foreign language though......

Thats far too much trouble for Irish people esp when they aren't inclined to learn their own one.

Cork Trucker

Stheno wrote: »

It was in mine and I'm almost ten years older than you

Aye different times.

Cork Trucker

TheRepentent wrote: »

What also needs to be drilled into them is that the US/Oz isn't the only place they can move to ,plenty of other places in the world to enjoy or indeed rasie a family. Might involve learning a foreign language though......

Within Europe isn't a problem or at least it wasn't, i always had a soft spot for Asia, alas i would have had the same issue. But there are some nice EU countries like Austria,Italy etc.

weldoninhio

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You know the old saying, 3 strikes and you're out kinda thing.

7 years from the last one indeed.

Just to give you an example, i work in a nightclub on the weekends on top of my own job, i had to go through the process to obtain a licence in that area which included vetting, the relevant body is aware of my history and still granted me a licence as it some people do more stupid acts than others in life especially younger ones like myself and Keith Byrne, does it really mean that it must be used as a beating stick until a persons dying day?People do change, i'm unsure if it is better to start a separate thread on this particular matter even though it is relevant in a way.

Something like the below should be mirrored in spent convictions legislation

https://www.psa.gov.ie/en/PSA/Fit%20&%20Proper%20Guidelines%20(Approved%20March%202012).pdf/Files/Fit%20&%20Proper%20Guidelines%20(Approved%20March%202012).pdf

If he had told the truth he may have gotten a visa from the US Embassy. The fact that he lied so that he could get the visa waiver shows he had no plan to return home. Even without the dope conviction in Ireland, he’s broken at least 2 American federal laws.

TheRepentent

whisky_galore wrote: »

Thats far too much trouble for Irish people esp when they aren't inclined to learn their own one.

yep...US/Canada etc for me is lazy immigration...

Sunny Disposition

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Aye different times.

Have worked in courts, wouldn’t have section 2 assault down as that minor an offence to be fair Cork Trucker, often very upsetting for victims.

Cork Trucker

weldoninhio wrote: »

If he had told the truth he may have gotten a visa from the US Embassy. The fact that he lied so that he could get the visa waiver shows he had no plan to return home. Even without the dope conviction in Ireland, he’s broken at least 2 American federal laws.

Have the embassy got discretion in matters like that? i never knew, i just chanced my arm without doing my research properly. I'd say the U.S violations are a bigger issue than what he did here. He probably thought to himself that if people get away with it in Ireland he'd get away with it as well, and look how long he managed to get away with it also.

cannotlogin

He broke the law by overstating his visa. The consequence is deportation. He overstated now that.

He also has 2 previous minor convictions which don't help his case.

All of those calling for him to be allowed stay in the US, would you be in favour of someone staying in Ireland under similar circumstances or would you think they had the children to improve their changes of staying. Double standards.

Cork Trucker

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Have worked in courts, wouldn’t have section 2 assault down as that minor an offence to be fair Cork Trucker, often very upsetting for victims.

You know yourself it is the least serious of the assaults, there being section 2,3 & 4. I accept what you say though, i was lucky not to end up with a section 3 but i'll park it there.

Cryptopagan

cannotlogin wrote: »

He broke the law by overstating his visa. The consequence is deportation. He overstated now that.

He also has 2 previous minor convictions which don't help his case.

All of those calling for him to be allowed stay in the US, would you be in favour of someone staying in Ireland under similar circumstances or would you think they had the children to improve their changes of staying. Double standards.

Yes, absolutely. Why would anyone want someone deported after they’d made a life here, were running a business, and had a family, assuming the previous conviction was just some minor cannabis possession charge?

Cork Trucker

cannotlogin wrote: »

He broke the law by overstating his visa. The consequence is deportation. He overstated now that.

He also has 2 previous minor convictions which don't help his case.

All of those calling for him to be allowed stay in the US, would you be in favour of someone staying in Ireland under similar circumstances or would you think they had the children to improve their changes of staying. Double standards.

He's coming home there's no two ways about it. He hoped the marriage and children would strengthen his hand plus with her having a child from a US citizen complicating matters he may have formed the opinion that the authorities would just let him stay. The father of this lady's eldest child must fear a potential custody battle should they all relocate to Fermoy.

weldoninhio

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Yes, absolutely. Why would anyone want someone deported after they’d made a life here, were running a business, had a family?

So we should only follow the laws we agree with??

weldoninhio

Cork Trucker wrote: »

He's coming home there's no two ways about it. He hoped the marriage and children would strengthen his hand plus with her having a child from a US citizen complicating matters he may have formed the opinion that the authorities would just let him stay. The father of this lady's eldest child must fear a potential custody battle should they all relocate to Fermoy.

I don’t think there would be much of a battle. As far as I know both parents have to consent for a child to be brought across state lines, never mind travelling internationally.

Sunny Disposition

Cork Trucker wrote: »

You know yourself it is the least serious of the assaults, there being section 2,3 & 4. I accept what you say though, i was lucky not to end up with a section 3 but i'll park it there.

The least serious of the assaults is still assault! No kudos for not getting assault causing harm. It’s a bloody serious offence. No way are you hard done by not getting a visa with a conviction for a violent offence.

Cork Trucker

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don’t think there would be much of a battle. As far as I know both parents have to consent for a child to be brought across state lines, never mind travelling internationally.

i know here if the parents are not married and the father does not have guardianship then she can take the child out of the country without the dad's consent, unsure as to the position in this case regarding the father of the eldest child.

Cork Trucker

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

The least serious of the assaults is still assault! No kudos for not getting assault causing harm. It’s a bloody serious offence. No way are you hard done by not getting a visa with a conviction for a violent offence.

I'm not saying i'm hard done by, never did, all i'm saying is i was 18 when convicted, now nearly 40, i've spent over half my life, virtually my entire adulthood with this, and there is nothing in law to remove it. the only problems i have these days is having to talk about why it happened with the relevant bodies.

Cryptopagan

weldoninhio wrote: »

So we should only follow the laws we agree with??

Well, for starters, an American in his position over here—Irish wife and kids—would be very, very unlikely not to be allowed to stay.

But anyway, there is a long and proud tradition of defying unjust laws. I expect the law to produce just and fair outcomes. If someone had been in the country that long, hadn’t caused any trouble, was working and paying taxes, and had strong personal ties in the form of a partner and children, there would be nothing just and fair in forcing them to leave.

circular flexing

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Have the embassy got discretion in matters like that? i never knew, i just chanced my arm without doing my research properly. I'd say the U.S violations are a bigger issue than what he did here. He probably thought to himself that if people get away with it in Ireland he'd get away with it as well, and look how long he managed to get away with it also.

Yes the embassy has discretion and can choose to issue a visa if they choose. It's called Waiver of Inadmissibility

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiver_of_inadmissibility_(United_States)

ceadaoin.

Cork Trucker wrote: »

i know here if the parents are not married and the father does not have guardianship then she can take the child out of the country without the dad's consent, unsure as to the position in this case regarding the father of the eldest child.

If a country is a signatory of the Hague convention, which the US and Ireland are, then one parent cannot relocate to another country without the permission of the other parent. They can be charged with kidnapping if they do.

circular flexing

ceadaoin. wrote: »

If a country is a signatory of the Hague convention, which the US and Ireland are, then one parent cannot relocate to another country without the permission of the other parent. They can be charged with kidnapping if they do.

If the father is not listed on the birth cert then this doesn't apply.

weldoninhio

Cryptopagan wrote: »

Well, for starters, an American in his position over here—Irish wife and kids—would be very, very unlikely not to be allowed to stay.

But anyway, there is a long and proud tradition of defying unjust laws. I expect the law to produce just and fair outcomes. If someone had been in the country that long, hadn’t caused any trouble, was working and paying taxes, and had strong personal ties in the form of a partner and children, there would be nothing just and fair in forcing them to leave.

It’s nobodies fault but his own. This law is not unjust. Why would any country, especially one with so many people looking to get in, allow convicted people into their country??

notobtuse

In 2018 US Immigration and Customs Enforcement removed 47 Irish people from the US last year, 34 people in 2017 and 26 in 2016. There are around 10,000-15,000 undocumented Irish living in the USA. That’s less than 1/3 of 1% chance of being deported back to Ireland. Seems like he was just one of the unlucky ones.

Mongfinder General

Cork Trucker wrote: »

He's coming home there's no two ways about it. He hoped the marriage and children would strengthen his hand plus with her having a child from a US citizen complicating matters he may have formed the opinion that the authorities would just let him stay. The father of this lady's eldest child must fear a potential custody battle should they all relocate to Fermoy.

I didn't realize he was likely to end up in Fermoy after being deported. I wouldn't put an animal down there.

Cork Trucker

Mongfinder General wrote: »

I didn't realize he was likely to end up in Fermoy after being deported. I wouldn't put an animal down there.

It’s where he’s from sure. He’ll be dropped off at Shannon airport and probably get picked up by family. Not fond of it myself

Limpy

I'd give him a pass on the possession charges, he served his sentience/paid his dues. But not the visa situation, it exists for a reason. Sure you can meet someone and its a fairytale story but they could always go to Ireland.

As others have said there is plenty of other places to live where the kids can still speak English. You could be stuck in Yemen ffs.

notobtuse

Seems it worked out okay for the last Irishman to make the news for being deported from the US. Doesn't even want to come back. Looks like a win/win situation.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/23/641267882/i-wouldn-t-move-back-deported-irish-man-creates-a-life-in-his-new-home

Fr_Dougal

notobtuse wrote: »

Seems it worked out okay for the last Irishman to make the news for being deported from the US. Doesn't even want to come back. Looks like a win/win situation.

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/23/641267882/i-wouldn-t-move-back-deported-irish-man-creates-a-life-in-his-new-home

Easy to say he doesn’t want to go back when there’s zero chance they’d let him back in!

joseywhales

TheRepentent wrote: »

whisky_galore wrote: »

Thats far too much trouble for Irish people esp when they aren't inclined to learn their own one.

yep...US/Canada etc for me is lazy immigration...

It's hardly laziness, they have the highest salaries in the world, high social mobility, excellent infrastructure, education and health systems, they also have more land , less population density than other developed countries. They are clearly the optimal choice for living standards. I guess you could move to Somalia and be less "lazy" about it.

notobtuse

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Easy to say he doesn’t want to go back when there’s zero chance they’d let him back in!

If we elect any of the lamebrained Democrats currently running for president they'll let anyone in (as long as they vote democratic).

joseywhales

Speaking as someone who has naturalized in both Canada and the us, the rigour of the process is extremely high, I've had four background checks and medical examinations not missed as much as a tax filing or made a mistake on a form, not to mention the thousands of dollars required. English language competency and of course no Irish convictions either and if you make an ommision or false statement, even to border patrol at the airport, you are pretty much done. I think it would be easier to join the CIA at this point.

notobtuse

Background checks are becoming all to common here in the states especially when one deals with children or the elderly. To coach girls softball I had to get a background check every year. My one daughter was going to become a math teacher and had to get a local police background check, a state police background check, and an FBI background check (she also needed these background checks to tutor at college because of the chance for a college student MIGHT be under 18). She got them all then decided to become an actuary.

And the way things are going all males will need background checks just to be in a room alone with a woman.

is_that_so

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Easy to say he doesn’t want to go back when there’s zero chance they’d let him back in!

Home is a state of mind not a place. Most people can make a home where they feel happy.

freshpopcorn

Look I feel a little sorry for him but he knew what he was doing was wrong and still did it
Also him getting married/having kids probably wasn't the wisest move.
If he's al lovely and innocent he should tip away and pick work up locally. The only real issue is the step kids.

whisky_galore

joseywhales wrote: »

It's hardly laziness, they have the highest salaries in the world, high social mobility, excellent infrastructure, education and health systems, they also have more land , less population density than other developed countries. They are clearly the optimal choice for living standards. I guess you could move to Somalia and be less "lazy" about it.

You had to pick a basket case country, didn't you? Not Germany, Sweden, France etc.

More land? What's that got to do with anything?
Join a wagon train and head West??

pinkyeye

TimeToShine wrote: »

Not only was he illegally overstaying but he was also running a painting business illegally and you can bet he was paying the lads in cash so not a cent in taxes paid.

Deport him.

You're completely wrong. He was paying tax and providing employment.

It's a particular hypocrisy in the US that you can pay tax even if you are illegal. :rolleyes:

notobtuse

pinkyeye wrote: »

You're completely wrong. He was paying tax and providing employment.

It's a particular hypocrisy in the US that you can pay tax even if you are illegal. :rolleyes:

And it’s a bigger fallacy when we hear the illegals pay taxes in the US. sure they do... pay $1 and use $10. Sales tax, tax lumped into their rent and a few others… but nothing compared to the tax dollars they utilize like the cost of schooling for their children, roads, bridges, infrastructure, welfare and medical care. If the illegals stopped paying their taxes AND stopped getting tax benefits the US would come out over $100 billion ahead (revenue from illegals $11.6 billion, yet tax outlay costs for them are over $116 billion).

Limpy

notobtuse wrote: »

And it’s a bigger fallacy when we hear the illegals pay taxes in the US. sure they do... pay $1 and use $10. Sales tax, tax lumped into their rent and a few others… but nothing compared to the tax dollars they utilize like the cost of schooling for their children, roads, bridges, infrastructure, welfare and medical care. If the illegals stopped paying their taxes AND stopped getting tax benefits the US would come out over $100 billion ahead (revenue from illegals $11.6 billion, yet tax outlay costs for them are over $116 billion).

Small potatoes compared to what they spend on overseas "missions".

malinheader

notobtuse wrote: »

And it’s a bigger fallacy when we hear the illegals pay taxes in the US. sure they do... pay $1 and use $10. Sales tax, tax lumped into their rent and a few others… but nothing compared to the tax dollars they utilize like the cost of schooling for their children, roads, bridges, infrastructure, welfare and medical care. If the illegals stopped paying their taxes AND stopped getting tax benefits the US would come out over $100 billion ahead (revenue from illegals $11.6 billion, yet tax outlay costs for them are over $116 billion).

So if you're illegally in the USA you're still entitled to welfare and medical care.

Cryptopagan

whisky_galore wrote: »

You had to pick a basket case country, didn't you? Not Germany, Sweden, France etc.

More land? What's that got to do with anything?
Join a wagon train and head West??

It’s very hard to break into the jobs market in places like France and Sweden, and not just because of the language barrier. Industries in France tend to have a lot of formal barriers to entry for example. That’s why Ireland can be very attractive for French and Germans, and why the US will often be more attractive to Irish emigrants despite the visa issue.

Donald Trump

notobtuse wrote: »

And it’s a bigger fallacy when we hear the illegals pay taxes in the US. sure they do... pay $1 and use $10. Sales tax, tax lumped into their rent and a few others… but nothing compared to the tax dollars they utilize like the cost of schooling for their children, roads, bridges, infrastructure, welfare and medical care. If the illegals stopped paying their taxes AND stopped getting tax benefits the US would come out over $100 billion ahead (revenue from illegals $11.6 billion, yet tax outlay costs for them are over $116 billion).

Pish. A child born in the US to illegals is a US citizen the same as a child born in the US to a legal immigrant which is the same as a child born to a direct descendant of the Mayflower. As such, each citizen is entitled to schooling etc.


Notwithstanding, as I am sure you are aware, the quality of public education is the US is extremely highly location dependent. Feel free to contradict me if you disagree. Schools will also actually get funding depending on their scores. What that means is that if the students of a particular score badly, it gets less money for resources. So you have a cycle where students in poorer areas start off surrounded by people who are struggling and not really focused on education. Often with English not spoken or as a second language. They then go to poorly funded schools and receive poor education, get low scores and the school keeps on its low level funding for the next generation. This of course is ignored by the better off who can afford to move the the better neighbourhood with the better local schools. Or maybe even send their kids to a nice private school. And then they can point the finger at little Jose whose parents came illegally and worked cleaning toilets and had a flat in the rough area of the city. They can tell themselves that the reason their little Tarquin is outscoring Jose is that Jose is lazy and they convince themselves that Jose has equal opportunity and that if only he took advantage of his opportunity to "work hard".


And, as I am sure you are well aware, plenty of illegals work and pay tax under false SSNs. Employers don't check or turn a blind eye to menial jobs that they can't find natives to do anyway. I think that the illegals can theoretically get an ITIN easier but many just submit their taxes under the false SSN. As such, they pay into the system but can't draw Social Security out of it at the other end.


Without the "illegals", plenty of sections of US economy would disintegrate. Whether that is picking fruit and vegetables or the company that comes in to empty the bins in your office and hoover at night. It's a form of exploitation. Which is also often conveniently ignored by the types of people who want to start charging them for using their roads and bridges..........

Donald Trump

malinheader wrote: »

So if you're illegally in the USA you're still entitled to welfare and medical care.

You're "entitled" to very little (especially by Irish standards) even if you are legal or a citizen in the US. No such thing as a forever home or being out up in a hotel or dole for life. A few food stamps. If you get a disease such as cancer and don't have health insurance, you might as well just start making funeral arrangements. Either that or put the house up for sale.......

NSAman

malinheader wrote: »

So if you're illegally in the USA you're still entitled to welfare and medical care.

Medical care yes, education yes, many also have bough social security cards so I am sure there is social security somehow.

That is not the issue. Currently the town where I live is small. 10 years ago there were 36 illegals living here. Now there are over 500. It puts pressure on services, it costs local tax payers a fortune, yes money from mine and every other tax payer locally funds the education of illegals children...do I mind.. not really.

Due to the numbers of children, they now want to build a new school...estimate 20 million. That I DO have an issue with. Paid out of local funds (small population) will mean large tax increases.

I have no issue with people coming to the States, but to come here illegally and expect all the services without contributing fully is not right for them or the general population.

A simple idea, charge people for temporary work visas with the chance of a green card based on contributions to tax and also society. This will solve quite a few issues...it will record these people who are mostly frightened, it will also allow them to stop being abused by unscrupulous employers and also give them a fighting chance to live normal lives not in the shadows.

A work visa costs around 5000 dollars with lawyers fees, charge them 2000. This would also raise money for the services that they use.

joseywhales

whisky_galore wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

It's hardly laziness, they have the highest salaries in the world, high social mobility, excellent infrastructure, education and health systems, they also have more land , less population density than other developed countries. They are clearly the optimal choice for living standards. I guess you could move to Somalia and be less "lazy" about it.

You had to pick a basket case country, didn't you? Not Germany, Sweden, France etc.

More land? What's that got to do with anything?
Join a wagon train and head West??

If I worked in Europe my net income would be 100k less for starters, that's if the job exists with enough volume that I could get it. The space thing is an incentive, I can buy land in the Rockies or the Appalachians or the west coast for a fraction of the equivalent in Europe, there is also more freedom and less federal beauracracy to deal with.