Rugby World Cup 2019 Japan The hunt for Webb Ellis

The Lost Sheep

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Vasily Artemyev, who went to Blackrock (won JCT and SCT with them), played for Leinster and Ireland schools and Ireland U19 and played for UCD, was named as captain for the Russia RWC squad.

Had forgotten about him

Tedo Abzhandadze who is in Georgian squad is another with Irish connections. Played for period with Terenure RFC

dr.kenneth noisewater

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

The Lost Sheep wrote:

So 2 irish lads in canadian squad - Shane O Leary and Peter Nelson Could be 4 or 5 in US squad Any others missing out on of Irish players playing for other countries?

Did I see something about an Irish lad in Japan squad?

It was actually a NZ guy who went to school in Blackrock
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Thompson_(rugby_union)

Eod100

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So 2 irish lads in canadian squad - Shane O Leary and Peter Nelson
Could be 4 or 5 in US squad
Any others missing out on of Irish players playing for other countries?

You'd think if the critics of residency rule were consistent they'd bring up this. Fair play to them, hope they've a good tournament. Is Quill still in US squad?

The Lost Sheep

Eod100 wrote: »

You'd think if the critics of residency rule were consistent they'd bring up this. Fair play to them, hope they've a good tournament. Is Quill still in US squad?

Quill still in the 50 along with Fawsitt, Mullen, Paddy Ryan and AJ and then there is Maupin who played with Trinity for 3/4 years over here

sydthebeat

dr.kenneth noisewater wrote: »

Did I see something about an Irish lad in Japan squad?

Are you thinking about nihi ograsshopper?

(just kidding)

Maybe your thinking of Conan o Donnell who was with the Sunwolves last season. He's now playing in NZ with counties

AdamD

England starting Vunipola again! Bit risky but he'll definitely at least they'll know his match fitness will be top notch

andymx11

AdamD wrote: »

England starting Vunipola again! Bit risky but he'll definitely at least they'll know his match fitness will be top notch

Hmm or burnt out - flip a coin!

hahashake

Eod100 wrote: »

You'd think if the critics of residency rule were consistent they'd bring up this. Fair play to them, h.pe they've a good tournament. Is Quill still in US squad?

Did a quick google, both qualified from birth.

Anyway, there's been a strange defensiveness from some quarters about the residency rule given it was recently deemed inadequate and changed. Just pray the Irish lineout doesn't falter in a losing quarter final or there will be a lot more about it.

Eod100

hahashake wrote: »

Did a quick google, both qualified from birth.

Anyway, there's been a strange defensiveness from some quarters about the residency rule given it was recently deemed inadequate and changed. Just pray the Irish lineout doesn't falter in a losing quarter final or there will be a lot more about it.

Isn't the flipside of that, that people are criticising rules that have already changed?

hahashake

Eod100 wrote: »

Isn't the flipside of that, that people are criticising rules that have already changed?

I suppose you could look at it that way. Just think the same people getting defensive are only doing it because they feel the finger is pointed at them rather than taking a step back and acknowledging the rule (that most teams used to some extent) wasn't sufficient. Unless you really think it was fine, which I doubt.

Edit: aware this has probably been done to death and the mods will no doubt prefer it wasn't discussed anymore

molloyjh

hahashake wrote: »

Eod100 wrote: »

Isn't the flipside of that, that people are criticising rules that have already changed?

I suppose you could look at it that way. Just think the same people getting defensive are only doing it because they feel the finger is pointed at them rather than taking a step back and acknowledging the rule (that most teams used to some extent) wasn't sufficient. Unless you really think it was fine, which I doubt.

Edit: aware this has probably been done to death and the mods will no doubt prefer it wasn't discussed anymore

I didn't have too much of a problem with it personally. For menits quite simple. Your national team should be representative of your nation. Ireland is now a multicultural nation with a lot of people who have chosen to immigrate here to make a better life for themselves. They've chosen this country to call home. Having that reflected in your sports team just makes sense to me.

I do think what should have been looked at is the mercenary stuff of leaving after getting capped. Having stipulations about how long they will remain in a country after having been there or something. So maybe someone like Kleyb still qualifies after 3 years but on the condition that hes signed up for another 2 or 3 years.

At the end of the day a lot of these guys make this their home and add to the communities they live in. Why should they not be allowed represent Ireland when some people who dont live here and dont contribute are allowed?

Cookiemunster

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn't have too much of a problem with it personally. For menits quite simple. Your national team should be representative of your nation. Ireland is now a multicultural nation with a lot of people who have chosen to immigrate here to make a better life for themselves. They've chosen this country to call home. Having that reflected in your sports team just makes sense to me.

I do think what should have been looked at is the mercenary stuff of leaving after getting capped. Having stipulations about how long they will remain in a country after having been there or something. So maybe someone like Kleyb still qualifies after 3 years but on the condition that hes signed up for another 2 or 3 years.

At the end of the day a lot of these guys make this their home and add to the communities they live in. Why should they not be allowed represent Ireland when some people who dont live here and dont contribute are allowed?

Kleyn is already signed up until 2022.

AdamD

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn't have too much of a problem with it personally. For menits quite simple. Your national team should be representative of your nation. Ireland is now a multicultural nation with a lot of people who have chosen to immigrate here to make a better life for themselves. They've chosen this country to call home. Having that reflected in your sports team just makes sense to me.

I do think what should have been looked at is the mercenary stuff of leaving after getting capped. Having stipulations about how long they will remain in a country after having been there or something. So maybe someone like Kleyb still qualifies after 3 years but on the condition that hes signed up for another 2 or 3 years.

At the end of the day a lot of these guys make this their home and add to the communities they live in. Why should they not be allowed represent Ireland when some people who dont live here and dont contribute are allowed?

3 years is too short. They've chosen to move here to play for our national team. Its not some happy coincidence of Kleyn moving here, it was almost certainly part of the plan. He left before the Curry cup in order to get to Munster in time so that he'd qualify for Ireland before the world cup. Its cynical and I think its perfectly okay for people to have an issue with it.

Thankfully the rules have changed.

Eod100

hahashake wrote: »

I suppose you could look at it that way. Just think the same people getting defensive are only doing it because they feel the finger is pointed at them rather than taking a step back and acknowledging the rule (that most teams used to some extent) wasn't sufficient. Unless you really think it was fine, which I doubt.

Edit: aware this has probably been done to death and the mods will no doubt prefer it wasn't discussed anymore

5 years is same time it takes to become a citizen so think that's why new rules have that length of residency. Don't think it can ever go past that. Rules are changed now which is main thing. Don't see why people like Fitzgerald are so critical at this juncture.

Former Former

Eod100 wrote: »

5 years is same time it takes to become a citizen so think that's why new rules have that length of residency. Don't think it can ever go past that.

I don't care about the rights and wrongs of project players, but the duration has nothing to do with acquiring citizenship. It takes 5 years in Ireland, but varies across the world, and is absolutely and completely unrelated to qualifying for a rugby side.

Eod100

Former Former wrote: »

I don't care about the rights and wrongs of project players, but the duration has nothing to do with acquiring citizenship. It takes 5 years in Ireland, but varies across the world, and is absolutely and completely unrelated to qualifying for a rugby side.

Stand corrected then. I had read that it was tied to this as if someone was eligible to be a citizen of a country than would acquire same rights as natural born citizen but guess it doesn't necessarily overlap into qualification for national sides

Riskymove

Former Former wrote: »

Iis absolutely and completely unrelated to qualifying for a rugby side.

if someone moves here and qualifies to become an Irish citizen then would they become eligible for selection (previous cap issues notwithstanding)

if so then clearly 5 years is the max here regardless of world rugby

molloyjh

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Kleyn is already signed up until 2022.

I know, was just using him as an examle given how he is the most current player to fall into the 3 year rule.

molloyjh

AdamD wrote: »

molloyjh wrote: »

I didn't have too much of a problem with it personally. For menits quite simple. Your national team should be representative of your nation. Ireland is now a multicultural nation with a lot of people who have chosen to immigrate here to make a better life for themselves. They've chosen this country to call home. Having that reflected in your sports team just makes sense to me.

I do think what should have been looked at is the mercenary stuff of leaving after getting capped. Having stipulations about how long they will remain in a country after having been there or something. So maybe someone like Kleyb still qualifies after 3 years but on the condition that hes signed up for another 2 or 3 years.

At the end of the day a lot of these guys make this their home and add to the communities they live in. Why should they not be allowed represent Ireland when some people who dont live here and dont contribute are allowed?

3 years is too short. They've chosen to move here to play for our national team. Its not some happy coincidence of Kleyn moving here, it was almost certainly part of the plan. He left before the Curry cup in order to get to Munster in time so that he'd qualify for Ireland before the world cup. Its cynical and I think its perfectly okay for people to have an issue with it.

Thankfully the rules have changed.

I'm not saying it's not okay for people to have had issue with it, just saying that I didn't. Loads of people emigrate with a view to improving their situation and benefiting of opportunities they dont get at home. It's pretty normal and representative of the modern world. In my personal opinion it's okay that this is reflected somewhat in sport. Other disagree, which is fine.

errlloyd

There are so many things to consider with Residency.

Having a dedicated team who scouts young foreign players from strong nations who have missed out (Stander, Roux, Payne, Kleyn). That's bad.

Having an ecosystem who scouts young foreign players from tier 2 nations who can be tempted with more money / opportunities / schooling (Raka, Vakatawa, Reece). That's worse?

Being a tier 2 nation that benefit from bona fide immigration from tier one nations allowing them to be competitive when they otherwise would not. (AJ, Fawsitt, Moore, Topou / Japan and USA). That's okay maybe?

Being from a Tier 3 nation and only being able to play proper rugby if you qualify on residency. (Visser, Debaty). That's good?

One thing often lost in the debate is that without residency much of professional rugby is protectionist and strucutred to exclude tier 2 players.

Podge_irl

Riskymove wrote: »

if someone moves here and qualifies to become an Irish citizen then would they become eligible for selection (previous cap issues notwithstanding)

if so then clearly 5 years is the max here regardless of world rugby

No they wouldn't and you can get citizenship in less than 5 years in many places. It'll take me 10 here which would seriously scupper for international rugby playing ambitions...

Eligibility is based on location of birth.

RugbyLover123

Why is Matt Kvesic on the Bench for England this week? Is he injury cover? I didn’t think he was even in the training squad for England.

PTH2009

my predictions

Grp A- 1st Scotland, 2nd Ireland, 3rd Japan- but would not be surprised to see us 3rd if we dont concentrate,If the 2018 Ireland show up then we will finsh 1st. Think Scotland could surprise us

Grp B- 1st South Africa, 2nd New Zealand, 3rd Italy- South Africa are in great shape going into this world cup after winning the Rugby Championship and really putting it up to New Zealand. Think South Africa will come out on top in a classic opening game vs the ABs. Italy not good enough to challenge for top 2

Grp C- 1st England, 2nd Argentina, 3rd France- England going in very strong and i think they will top there group but might face tough challegnes vs Arg and France. Argentina always bring there best for the World Cup and think they will beat France and finish 2nd

Grp D- 1st Wales, 2nd Austraila, 3rd Georgia- Wales i think will beat Austrailia and top the group. The Aussies should be too strong for the rest of the group and finish 2nd. Fiji vs Georgia could be interesting as Georgia are slowly growing into a strong rugby nation and are not the worst team. Think they will beat Fiji

QFs
England vs Austrailia- England
South Africa vs Ireland- South Africa in a close game
Wales vs Argentina- Wales
Scotland vs New Zealand- New Zealand

Semis
England vs South Africa- South Africa
Wales vs New Zealand- New Zealand

Final- South Africa vs New Zealand- South Africa

Podge_irl

PTH2009 wrote: »

Grp A- 1st Scotland, 2nd Ireland, 3rd Japan- but would not be surprised to see us 3rd if we dont concentrate,If the 2018 Ireland show up then we will finsh 1st. Think Scotland could surprise us

Of course you wouldn't be. But basically every bookie and pundit globally would be absolutely shocked. Losing to Japan and Scotland would be basically unprecedented.

Hell, if the 2019 Ireland show up, given the history of playing Scotland in 2019, they'll also finish first.

tmc1963

Podge_irl wrote: »

Of course you wouldn't be. But basically every bookie and pundit globally would be absolutely shocked. Losing to Japan and Scotland would be basically unprecedented.

Hell, if the 2019 Ireland show up, given the history of playing Scotland in 2019, they'll also finish first.

Who knows what the score might have been in the Scotland game had the officials penalised POM's illegal challenge on Hogg that ended his participation and led to the first try.

sydthebeat

Absolutely no way South Africa draw with once and beat NZ twice in the one year...

Not happening.

Yes Rassie has them humming but like any team they are two injuries away from disaster. If pollard or de klerk go down their replacements are either inexperienced or inadequate....

Plus if either of their first choice centers ship a bad one

molloyjh

In the last 2 years Scotland have won 4 of their 11 games outside Scotland. Those wins were against Argentina, Italy, Canada and Georgia. Beating tier 1 sides outside of Scotland is a very rare thing for Scotland. It is possible that they could beat us, but it is highly unlikely. History simply doesn't even come close to suggesting that they can do it. As for Japan beating us, well that's incredibly less likely. I honestly don't know where people get some of this stuff.

ionadnapokot

PTH2009 wrote: »

my predictions

Final- South Africa vs New Zealand- South Africa

Fair play for putting that out there. And nailing your colours to the mast early!
Will give it a go myself..but will wait until after the Welsh match!

My gut instinct is telling me Ireland will beat Scotland. But i am extremely worried about the form of some of Ireland's key players and can they get back into the groove quick enough. Luckily Scotland are notoriously slow starters.

Scotland might have 9 or 10 different players from the 6N game in Edinburgh.
Hogg; Seymour; D Taylor, S Johnson; Maitland; Russell, Price; Dell, McInally, Nell; Gilchrist?, J Gray; Barclay, H Watson, B Thomson.
Reps: F Brown,G Reid, S Berghan, Skinner?, R Wilson, Laidlaw, Hastings, Kinghorn.

I'm also not fully discounting Japan. But If we beat Scotland, we beat Japan.
Tupou; Matsushima, Lafaele, Nakamura, Fukuoka; Tamura, Tanaka?; Inagaki, Horie, Ji-won Koo; Thompson, Uwe Helu?; Leitch, Labuschagne, Mafi.
Reps: Sakate?, Nakajima?, Ai Valu?, Moore?, Himeno? , Nagare?, Matsuda, Yamanka?

Some of the Japanese aficionados might be able to shed light on their likely 23.

On SA
Im not convinced that SA are good enough to win it. I actually reckon Ireland would beat them if they progress to the 1/4's in good nick
(with Furlong, Henderson, Ryan, POM, Sexton, Ringrose, Carbery, Kearney).

Cookiemunster

Interesting to remember that the weather (it's typhoon season in the Pacific) could have a major impact on the group stages.

https://twitter.com/FreemanrugbyJPN/status/1169530328081260544

Eod100

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Interesting to remember that the weather (it's typhoon season in the Pacific) could have a major impact on the group stages.

https://twitter.com/FreemanrugbyJPN/status/1169530328081260544

Is that called off before played obviously? Presumably games wouldn't start and then be cancelled but guess it would be whatever team was winning in that case?

jr86

Eod100 wrote: »

Is that called off before played obviously? Presumably games wouldn't start and then be cancelled but guess it would be whatever team was winning in that case?

Yeah abandoned matches in regular leagues and stuff can be refixed and start again at 0-0, but it is a lot different with the world cup and a short window.

Like if Ireland are 21-0 up on Russia and the game gets abandoned after 20 minutes, would it actually be deemed a 0-0 draw?

Postponed matches really could have serious consequences here alright. I know in football world cups and euros they'll generally re-fix them for a day or two after

Eod100

jr86 wrote: »

Yeah abandoned matches in regular leagues and stuff can be refixed and start again at 0-0, but it is a lot different with the world cup and a short window.

Like if Ireland are 21-0 up on Russia and the game gets abandoned after 20 minutes, would it actually be deemed a 0-0 draw?

Postponed matches really could have serious consequences here alright. I know in football world cups and euros they'll generally re-fix them for a day or two after

Yeah hopefully doesn't happen but would cause some mess. Dunno is there something in rules if a team is up after 60 mins say that they win?

randomname2005

jr86 wrote: »

Yeah abandoned matches in regular leagues and stuff can be refixed and start again at 0-0, but it is a lot different with the world cup and a short window.

Like if Ireland are 21-0 up on Russia and the game gets abandoned after 20 minutes, would it actually be deemed a 0-0 draw?

Postponed matches really could have serious consequences here alright. I know in football world cups and euros they'll generally re-fix them for a day or two after

Or if Russia are 3-0 up after 5 minutes and it gets abandoned would it be considered a win for Russia? :O

Cookiemunster

Lads, no match is going to be abandoned after kick off due a typhoon. They're not going to take place at all. If there's a danger of one hitting during the tournament, any affected matches will be called off well before they're due kick off.

Lil Sally Anne Jnr.

Anyone care to tell me what makes Porter such a "great physical specimen". I like him a lot, great player in my limited knowledge, and he is obviously super broad, but he looks kind of tiny too? Very interested in this. I remember listening to a podcast one time where it was explained that Furlong's relative narrowness was an exceptional quality as it gave the other side of the scrum less real estate to put pressure on.

Yeah_Right

sydthebeat wrote: »

Absolutely no way South Africa draw with once and beat NZ twice in the one year...

Not happening.

Yes Rassie has them humming but like any team they are two injuries away from disaster. If pollard or de klerk go down their replacements are either inexperienced or inadequate....

Plus if either of their first choice centers ship a bad one

Last SA beat us twice in a year 2008 or 09 I think. I expect the ABs to beat them in the group. If they face each other in the final, no idea. Too much rugby to be played between now and then. Injuries, suspensions, form etc.

molloyjh

Lil Sally Anne Jnr. wrote: »

Anyone care to tell me what makes Porter such a "great physical specimen". I like him a lot, great player in my limited knowledge, and he is obviously super broad, but he looks kind of tiny too? Very interested in this. I remember listening to a podcast one time where it was explained that Furlong's relative narrowness was an exceptional quality as it gave the other side of the scrum less real estate to put pressure on.

Hes 6" or thereabouts. But the fact he is so broad masks that. Hes f-ing enormous!

Dog Botherer

PTH2009 wrote: »

my predictions

Grp A- 1st Scotland, 2nd Ireland, 3rd Japan- but would not be surprised to see us 3rd if we dont concentrate,If the 2018 Ireland show up then we will finsh 1st. Think Scotland could surprise us

Grp B- 1st South Africa, 2nd New Zealand, 3rd Italy- South Africa are in great shape going into this world cup after winning the Rugby Championship and really putting it up to New Zealand. Think South Africa will come out on top in a classic opening game vs the ABs. Italy not good enough to challenge for top 2

Grp C- 1st England, 2nd Argentina, 3rd France- England going in very strong and i think they will top there group but might face tough challegnes vs Arg and France. Argentina always bring there best for the World Cup and think they will beat France and finish 2nd

Grp D- 1st Wales, 2nd Austraila, 3rd Georgia- Wales i think will beat Austrailia and top the group. The Aussies should be too strong for the rest of the group and finish 2nd. Fiji vs Georgia could be interesting as Georgia are slowly growing into a strong rugby nation and are not the worst team. Think they will beat Fiji

QFs
England vs Austrailia- England
South Africa vs Ireland- South Africa in a close game
Wales vs Argentina- Wales
Scotland vs New Zealand- New Zealand

Semis
England vs South Africa- South Africa
Wales vs New Zealand- New Zealand

Final- South Africa vs New Zealand- South Africa

Have to take issue with your assessment of Georgia and Fiji. Georgia’s form this year has been very poor, culminating in them being hammered by Scotland’s seconds on home soil last weekend. Them recalling the retired Gorgodze is as clear of a warning siren as there could be. On the other hand, Fiji are coming off a solid PNC where they displayed a much more rounded gameplan, beat France at home last year, and have secured almost all of their foreign based players for the tournament.

Fiji will push Wales and Australia close, they have a chance at least at the quarters. No one will play their B team against Fiji. Georgia will put 40 on Uruguay and get hammered by everyone else’s seconds.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Hes 6" or thereabouts. But the fact he is so broad masks that. Hes f-ing enormous!

Porter is one of those players who falls into the bracket of 'optical illusion' big. He's a serious unit and I think he's going to have a big world cup, has been one of our better performers in a not too impressive few weeks of rugby.

Lovely chap though, met some of his family who are also extremely nice people.

joseywhales

He has one of the biggest asses and backs in world rugby. I feel like he is the perfect build for a world strong man

The Lost Sheep

jr86 wrote: »

Yeah abandoned matches in regular leagues and stuff can be refixed and start again at 0-0, but it is a lot different with the world cup and a short window.

Like if Ireland are 21-0 up on Russia and the game gets abandoned after 20 minutes, would it actually be deemed a 0-0 draw?

Postponed matches really could have serious consequences here alright. I know in football world cups and euros they'll generally re-fix them for a day or two after

Normally in rugby a game is replayed if game hasnt played 60 minutes but world cup is different.
So if game is abandoned in second half or at half time the result stands while if its in first half the result is declared a draw but teams keep the points theyve scored for points difference purposes

Eod100 wrote: »

Yeah hopefully doesn't happen but would cause some mess. Dunno is there something in rules if a team is up after 60 mins say that they win?

Yes but not in a world cup.

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Lads, no match is going to be abandoned after kick off due a typhoon. They're not going to take place at all. If there's a danger of one hitting during the tournament, any affected matches will be called off well before they're due kick off.

Big time. Would be too much risk for people attending and leaving.

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/TelegraphRugby/status/1169860478501212162?s=19

Squidgy Black

Team of players who missed out on the RWC because of omission or injury:

1. Rob Evans
2. Dylan Hartley
3. Owen Franks
4. Devin Toner
5. Will Skelton
6. Liam Squire
7. Sean O'Brien
8. Taulupe Faletau
9. Danny Care
10. Gareth Anscombe
11. Teddy Thomas
12. Ngani Laumape
13. Huw Jones
14. Santiago Cordero
15. Damien McKenzie

Exclamation Marc

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Interesting to remember that the weather (it's typhoon season in the Pacific) could have a major impact on the group stages.

https://twitter.com/FreemanrugbyJPN/status/1169530328081260544

Whatever happens in this world cup from purely a rugby perspective, I really hope that typhoons don't wreck or disrupt the tournament.

Group games being defaulted to a 2 point draw could be catastrophic where its one of the top teams playing the smaller teams and really skew the final standings.

Japan averages 30 typhoons and 1500 earthquakes a year annually.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

So if game is abandoned in second half or at half time the result stands while if its in first half the result is declared a draw but teams keep the points theyve scored for points difference purposes

Bonus points stand also so get the tries in early

AdamD

Realistically the typhoon will be gone before the tournament starts

Cookiemunster

AdamD wrote: »

Realistically the typhoon will be gone before the tournament starts

Yeah, this typhoon will be well blown out by then. The thing is that the tournament is on during typhoon season so more are possible. That's why the brought in specific rules for this tournament to deal with weather disruption.

Will SA v Japan be televised anywhere? Kick off at 11:15

Sabre0001

"In South Africa, viewers can watch all the action live on SuperSport," according to The Sun. Not on UK TV.

ionadnapokot

Talk of a Typhoon and look who is “up from the depths” - Gorgodzilla!
https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/news/447249

Sabre0001

England Rugby has been uploading videos over the course of their prep and warmup. Interesting to see behind the scenes, though I've only watched a couple of episodes. Doing their warm weather training this week in Italy (and playing Italy tonight)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlKKx1PpdKQ