NBP part II

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

The committment contract criteria were drawn up by Price Waterhouse well in advance of EIR agreeing to sign. They were published and initially just brushed aside by EIR who said they had sent their plans to the Department. It was only when the government refused to change the intervention map that EIR eventually signed up. The criteria reflect EU policy and you only have to look at what @clohamon posted about the Greek NBP to see that the EU are fully behind a fibre solution.

...the Gigabit Communication sets out further targets in order to respond to technological developments and future needs: by 2025 all European households, rural or urban,should have access to broadband networks offering a download speed of at least 100 Mbps, which can be upgraded to 1 Gbps, and socio-economic drivers should have access to speeds up to 1 Gbps symmetric.

Hard to see the WISPs getting a look-in there. But, I guess there does have to be some point to these submissions.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111237551&postcount=415

Fergal Mulligan wrote:

Mr. Neary and I, along with many others, are intimately familiar with the agreement pertaining to the 300,000 homes. We bear the scars of about nine months of lawyer-to-lawyer engagement with Eircom in getting that agreement. It was a difficult agreement to get. While we got criticism at the time, we were quite proud of getting it because at the start Eircom, fundamentally objected to a commitment to connect people.

I think it could be argued that it is essentially an agreement between eir and DCCAE.

I'm just speculating on how a challenge might be made if one is to be.

Orebro

Marlow wrote: »

The big issue is, that the proposed contract so far is so full of irregularities, backhanders and issues that would void it, that the 3bn investment is massively challenged. Especially when it has been proven that the targets can be met at a fraction of the budget. Even technically.

The whole issue is, that everyone is set on fibre. But that was never the actual target. The target was 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s by 2025. Anyone expecting more is dreaming.

Of course FTTH would be nice. But at what cost to the tax payer when the takeup effectively is 10% or less. Especially the clause of the government paying compensation for lack of takeup is ludicrous.

/M

Some fairly serious accusations there Marlow - anything to back that up?

Backhanders? Oh please. This has to be one of the most comprehensive projects undertaken since rural electrification and has been under a microscope for months/years.

Theres nothing dodgy going on here. Only dodgy thing I can see is Timmy Dooley talking out his backside, and a bunch of WISPs and Imagine causing trouble and stirring it as they can see the writing is on the wall for their business models.

allanpkr

Obviously marlow you have broadband but not ftth ,sounds like sourgrapes .as your whole diatribe of lies is another attempt by your type to cloud what is obvious. Or do you work for that con company touting so called broadband i IMAGINE.

Marlow

allanpkr wrote: »

Obviously marlow you have broadband but not ftth ,sounds like sourgrapes .as your whole diatribe of lies is another attempt by your type to cloud what is obvious. Or do you work for that con company touting so called broadband i IMAGINE.

I have FTTH. Broadband availability is a requirement, when I move a house. I need it for my job. But all I really need is around 50-100 Mbit/s and preferable at least 2 providers, who can provide that. A backup plan is crucial. If I can find a place, that offers me more .. even better. Currently I'm on SIRO and have a business connection with a symmetric Gbit/s .. but I prefer to live in the country side .. the only problem was, that between this and the other option I had .. the other house was under 100m from a motorway with no sound barrier. Not an option, really.

It's neither here nor there. And who I work for has nothing to do with anything. I represent myself and my personal opinion. It's comments like yours, that actually make one question the whole thing.

I mean 3 bn of tax money .. that's A LOT of money out of everyones pocket, when it can be done in a more sensible manner. Especially with some terms in the contract, that are complete and utter nonsense and just even more costly to the tax payer. Any tax payer.

/M

Marlow

Orebro wrote: »

This has to be one of the most comprehensive projects undertaken since rural electrification and has been under a microscope for months/years.

Comprehensive ? Are you joking ?

At least 2/3 of the industry were excluded from input from the get go. Disregardless how good or how bad their track record was. A lot of those have now basically made fire under the department .. if you check recent events in the Oireachtas.

It's a joke ... and that's an understatement. Right now, the date for signing the contract is being pushed around to save political face and to maybe let the whole disaster that may exceed the childrens hospital disappear within Brexit or the next general elections.

Additionally: continuing with one bidder, that has completely changed in composition from when they entered to when they made a proposal and that are actually not investing any of their own money (pretty much), has no actual track record for such a rollout of their own on top of that, has nothing to do with comprehensive. It's negligent.

/M

KOR101

allanpkr wrote: »

Obviously marlow you have broadband but not ftth ,sounds like sourgrapes .as your whole diatribe of lies is another attempt by your type to cloud what is obvious. Or do you work for that con company touting so called broadband i IMAGINE.

allanpkr

This plan was about future proofing ireland in communication. You say you only need 100....very short sighted whedn in the future iot will be massive and will need broadband that at the moment only ftth tech can provide. 3 billion is cheap, co pared to redoing it again in future cause it doesngt meet future needs and will cost many billions more. This isnt about you or i, its about future ireland. When intenational companys can set up i ireland knowing they will get top standard internet.then pay corporation tax , employees paying income tax............etc etc

allanpkr

You seem to have an agenda , with your one sided comments. Not sure why but , honesty will free you...

Marlow

allanpkr wrote: »

This plan was about future proofing ireland in communication. You say you only need 100....very short sighted whedn in the future iot will be massive and will need broadband that at the moment only ftth tech can provide. 3 billion is cheap, co pared to redoing it again in future cause it doesngt meet future needs and will cost many billions more. This isnt about you or i, its about future ireland. When intenational companys can set up i ireland knowing they will get top standard internet.then pay corporation tax , employees paying income tax............etc etc

You say, this is not about you and I. But you made very personal comments and accusations about me in your post, while I was just airing some opinions. But if you name your real name, who you work for and what your intentions are, then we can go from there.

And yes, it is about future proofing communication in Ireland. But the way it is done is wreckless, because various factors have been ignored. The NBP should have been scrapped and reworked at the point, when they ended with one bidder, because the purpose of the tender was not suitable anymore.

It should again have been srapped, reworked and restarted, when 300k premises were taken out and awarded to OpenEIR (and Eircom PLC) changing the entire picture of the NBP.

It should again have been scrapped, reworked and restarted, when due diligence was not being followed by the department and the minister leading the department.

It should again have been scrapped, reworked and restarted, when it became evident, that the last remaining bidder completely changed their composition from how they entered the tender to when they submitted their bid.

Other factors have become evident even beyond that point, which means, that if the contract is signed, it is a big black hole.

And the fact, that a large part of the industry was denied input to the process in the first place means, that everyone in the industry (big or small players) are poking holes in it now.

There is nothing comprehensive, cheap or future proofing about the current offer. 3bn is not cheap, when the result is utterly nonsense. And alone the fact, that there is a clause that the NBP Co. will be compensated for lack of take up and also the fact, that the government thinks they'll partially pay less because of VAT claw-back are ludicrous and clear signs of a lack of understanding how running a business and associated tax burdens work. The very mention of the latter shows, how little the people dealing with this actually know about the real world.

/M

Marlow

allanpkr wrote: »

You seem to have an agenda , with your one sided comments.

Sure I do. NAMA and Anglo Irish was how benefitial to the irish tax payer ? Especially looking at the fact, that Anglo Irish Bank still went the way of the dodo, after the amount of tax money that was pumped into that.

This is reaching the same league at this point. Especially, when various, less costly alternatives have been pointed out to the government. Even more, when this is the 3rd attempt of a GBS/NBS/NBP, that completely is going to achieve ....without solving the core issue or learning anything .... nothing but emptying peoples pockets and undermining irish business within the industry, that actually are doing a good job. Sure, there are black sheep. But it does not apply to all of them.

And I am always honest. Brutally honest. You just don't like it.

/M

Marlow

Oh .. and let me enlighten you about aother issue, why the NBP Co. will be a fail from the get go ... resulting in the government paying for lack of take up.

- the indicated wholesale pricing of the NBP Co. exceeds OpenEIR current wholesale pricing for FTTH.
- SIRO operates in and around OpenEIRs wholesale pricing from prior to September 2016 ... nevermind their Gigabit promotion. Which is the lowest wholesale pricing for FTTH last mile in the country.
- the average irish family can not afford 50 EUR/month or more .. which it generally is after a year ... for broadband, nevermind the cost for civils to repair or lay ducting on their own property. So they resort to alternative providers at smaller or similar speeds but lower installation costs. Again adding to the scenario of lack of takeup for NBP Co.

Those 3 factors tell you, that the current proposal is an utter fail as it does not meet the factors needed to fit in the environment, that is is targeting.

It thereby becomes a burden to the tax payer. Every tax payer in the country.

Explain to me, how this ever going to end up being a success ?

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Former Actavo exec appointed as NBI head of network, responsible for construction of the network.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/former-actavo-exec-tj-malone-streams-into-national-broadband-ireland-zzsjt3wk6?region=ie&t=ie

and

A bill that proposes to keep the network in state ownership is to be published by the Labour party on Tuesday.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/ireland/td-sean-sherlock-aims-to-keep-national-broadband-network-in-public-hands-7f3bbcgg8

Contract to be signed by "the end of the year" according to Leo Varadkar in the second article.

Marlow

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

Contract to be signed by "the end of the year" according to Leo Varadkar in the second article.

Last xmas ..... during the plowing ... end of the year ... and various other promises. Pushing it to a suitable date, where it can fall under the table without anybody noticing the consequences.

Interesting times ahead non the less.

/M

BarryM

I think that the dail Committee suggested scrapping and starting again, but, not surprisingly, the gov won't risk the wrath of joe public by having another children's hospital fiasco.

I may have missed it in all the talk on this thread and elsewhere but what is the 'optimum' model for a decent, cost effective, future proofed, broadband for all, for Ireland (in 2019?).

IMO, we are well past the point of 'starting again' what do we do NOW, even if we had €3bn?

Just so everyone knows where I stand, I live in a 'to be covered by NBP' area, I have about 2mb from a fixed wireless local supplier, (the only one able and/or willing to provide it), for €38 a month. It is OK, except that the voice over IP option is a bit iffy.

The high horse brigade

Marlow wrote: »

You say, this is not about you and I. But you made very personal comments and accusations about me in your post, while I was just airing some opinions. But if you name your real name, who you work for and what your intentions are, then we can go from there.

And yes, it is about future proofing communication in Ireland. But the way it is done is wreckless, because various factors have been ignored. The NBP should have been scrapped and reworked at the point, when they ended with one bidder, because the purpose of the tender was not suitable anymore.

It should again have been srapped, reworked and restarted, when 300k premises were taken out and awarded to OpenEIR (and Eircom PLC) changing the entire picture of the NBP.

It should again have been scrapped, reworked and restarted, when due diligence was not being followed by the department and the minister leading the department.

It should again have been scrapped, reworked and restarted, when it became evident, that the last remaining bidder completely changed their composition from how they entered the tender to when they submitted their bid.

Other factors have become evident even beyond that point, which means, that if the contract is signed, it is a big black hole.

And the fact, that a large part of the industry was denied input to the process in the first place means, that everyone in the industry (big or small players) are poking holes in it now.

There is nothing comprehensive, cheap or future proofing about the current offer. 3bn is not cheap, when the result is utterly nonsense. And alone the fact, that there is a clause that the NBP Co. will be compensated for lack of take up and also the fact, that the government thinks they'll partially pay less because of VAT claw-back are ludicrous and clear signs of a lack of understanding how running a business and associated tax burdens work. The very mention of the latter shows, how little the people dealing with this actually know about the real world.

/M

I agree with most of this but the harsh reality is that we can't wait another 7 years to start the whole process again. We are left with what we have, it's not ideal, but it's still a plan to bring fibre to rural areas without lowering the bar for fear of threading on vested interests toes. 3 billion over 20 years is pennies tbh when you think of the benefits rural fibre brings.

shanec1928

BarryM wrote: »

I may have missed it in all the talk on this thread and elsewhere but what is the 'optimum' model for a decent, cost effective, future proofed, broadband for all, for Ireland (in 2019?).

the fibre solution we will hopefully be getting once signed. Not wireless,Leo or 5g like people have tried to claim through out this and past threads. fibre is the only future proofed solution.

listermint

If we want Ireland to return to the economic back water that it was 40 years ago then we will abandon projects like this.

Right now in this moment we are literally the silicon valley of Europe such is the presence on the island.

Time we act like it.

Marlow

BarryM wrote: »

I think that the dail Committee suggested scrapping and starting again, but, not surprisingly, the gov won't risk the wrath of joe public by having another children's hospital fiasco.

If you have gotten to the point of risking the wrath of joe public, then you have failed in your appointment as politician and should sign off.

It goes this bad, because everyone tries to pull a fast one without research, without looking at the consequences and in essence just wants to make it to the next election day. And the NBP is an example of exactly that.

And this is already another childrens hospital fiasco .. before the contracts even are signed. We started out with an indication of 3/4 bn, of which 1/3 was the irish state and the other 2/3 were the EU. Now that budget has more than trippled. Talking about fantasies and wishful thinking. If they had been honest and realistical about the figures from day one, the project would probably have been dismissed.

/M

celticbhoy27

"if you have gotten to the point of risking the wrath of joe public, then you have failed in your appointment as politician and should sign off"

Haha there wouldn't be a politician left in the country

listermint

Marlow wrote: »

If you have gotten to the point of risking the wrath of joe public, then you have failed in your appointment as politician and should sign off.

It goes this bad, because everyone tries to pull a fast one without research, without looking at the consequences and in essence just wants to make it to the next election day. And the NBP is an example of exactly that.

And this is already another childrens hospital fiasco .. before the contracts even are signed. We started out with an indication of 3/4 bn, of which 1/3 was the irish state and the other 2/3 were the EU. Now that budget has more than trippled. Talking about fantasies and wishful thinking. If they had been honest and realistical about the figures from day one, the project would probably have been dismissed.

/M

It hasn't though and the children's hospital went over it's set budget.

Your comparison is flawed because nbp hasn't gone over budget...you use these comparisons because you don't like the plan purely based on self interest business perspective rather than what's good for the national economic future.


Alas. Your entitled to do that.. as I am to call it out

Orebro

We’re hearing the last desperate screams of the vested interests now. The reality is that even the opposition have stated they won’t bring the Gov down over it.

Shame on anyone looking to condemn those without proper connectivity to dealing with the likes of WISPs and Imagine forever. Sorry, but I see a bright future for this country and for rural Ireland and we should give the kids and future generations the opportunities this FTTH project will give.

allanpkr

No i love honesty .try it sometime. You keep saying there is cheaper and better solutions than fttth pray enlighten me and others . Tell me in all honesty are you in the brroadband industry, just a querry.

allanpkr

Just a small point marlow...lol. your post suggests the process should have been restarted numerous times, for a number of reasons only in your mind.
This only proves either you have vested interest in i presume wireless broadband or even more laughable sat broadband OR your just trolling.

clohamon

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

I think it could be argued that it is essentially an agreement between eir and DCCAE.

I'm just speculating on how a challenge might be made if one is to be.

A request under the FOI Act or the AIE regs would, in theory, reveal within a month if any (W)ISP had made a credible submission.

Eircom made their successful 300K challenge direct to the EC over the head of the Department. I suspect any new challenge from a (W)ISP would probably try the same route.

https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/committee/dail/32/committee_of_public_accounts/submissions/2019/2019-01-24_correspondence-mark-griffing-secretary-generalm-department-of-communications-climate-action-and-environment-32r001851-pac_en.pdf

In parallel to this notification to the Department, eir made a detailed presentation in November 2016 to the European Commission’s Directorate-General for Competition (DG Competition), and outlined details of the progress of its commercial rollout of the 300,000 premises, with approximately 3,000 premises already passed and a target of 100,000 to be passed by mid-2017.

It was made clear to the Department by the European Commission over the course of several bi-lateral meetings that the revised commercial investment plan from eir and a signed Commitment Agreement could not be rejected as a legitimate commercial investment from a State Aid perspective.

However as posted earlier and contrary to what is implied above, the Commission claim that they do not assess private investments.(i.e map changes)
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=111175762&postcount=306

As a preliminary comment, I would like to clarify that under the State aid investigations, the European Commission does not assess private investment plans that do not receive State aid (such as Eircom's private investments registered in an agreement between Ireland and Eircom you referred to),

So, for reasons of optics, you're probably right it would be (W)ISP vs DCCAE

westyIrl

allanpkr wrote: »

Just a small point marlow...lol. your post suggests the process should have been restarted numerous times, for a number of reasons only in your mind.
This only proves either you have vested interest in i presume wireless broadband or even more laughable sat broadband OR your just trolling.

To be fair to Marlow, he has been a long time contributor on this and other network/broadband topics and even if your or my opinion differs from his, he certainly is no troll. He's just expressing his view which is quite entitled to. I might not agree with everything he says (nor do I anyone really) but his insight has been quite valuable on many an occasion. Ease up

KOR101

clohamon wrote: »

Eircom made their successful 300K challenge direct to the EC over the head of the Department. I suspect any new challenge from a (W)ISP would probably try the same route.

Well Eir had a product that meets the criteria, the WISPS simply don't even at the 30mb (at peak times) level. So, how long is the process likely to take?

Marlow

KOR101 wrote: »

Well Eir had a product that meets the criteria, the WISPS simply don't even at the 30mb (at peak times) level. So, how long is the process likely to take?

Current modern WISP technology can deliver 100 Mbit/s at peak with an upgrade path to 500 Mbit/s. But that is neither here nor there. Simply because some of these providers even have done small fibre rollouts, broadband over cable TV and much more.

And while fixed wireless does not scale to Gbit/s that does not make it fair for them to be automatically be disqualified. Because they could take the approach to connect endusers with the speeds required (30 Mbit/s now, 100 Mbit/s by 2025) while they build other infrastructure to increase speeds even further. But that approach was never even considered.

So the whole WISP bashing here is way out of line. Plenty of them are providing multiple tech anyhow.

Now .. if the NBP tender process had been managed properly, there would be no backlash. But it is so full of holes and misconduct, that its ridiculous.

/M

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

Current modern WISP technology can deliver 100 Mbit/s at peak with an upgrade path to 500 Mbit/s. But that is neither here nor there. Simply because some of these providers even have done small fibre rollouts, broadband over cable TV and much more.

And while fixed wireless does not scale to Gbit/s that does not make it fair for them to be automatically be disqualified. Because they could take the approach to connect endusers with the speeds required (30 Mbit/s now, 100 Mbit/s by 2025) while they build other infrastructure to increase speeds even further. But that approach was never even considered.

So the whole WISP bashing here is way out of line. Plenty of them are providing multiple tech anyhow.

Now .. if the NBP tender process had been managed properly, there would be no backlash. But it is so full of holes and misconduct, that its ridiculous.

/M

so you reckon that the whole process is wrong because no one would bet on WISPS doing something in the future that just might meet the basic space?

I reckon a better bet might be LEO ....... and maybe bet on LENR at every home at the same time.

right!

clohamon

KOR101 wrote: »

Well Eir had a product that meets the criteria, the WISPS simply don't even at the 30mb (at peak times) level. So, how long is the process likely to take?

I suppose, either way, they'd have to be seen to give the proposals proper consideration.
And seems it's been extended for another week

A number of submissions have been received from small operators requesting a further extension to enable the finalisation of submissions currently under preparation and the Department has decided to grant a further extension to conclude at 5.00pm on Monday 30th September, 2019.

allanpkr

I wil. Take your word he isnt a troll. But then he must have a vested interest that ffth nbp is something he doesnt want. Cause to say other solutions are better for future communication in irelands future without stating any, seems a tad misleading , at best.