NBP part II

tsue921i8wljb3

August 20th is now the date for the publishing of the Communication Committee report amid disagreement among members about what the findings should be.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/report-on-whether-to-support-governments-broadband-plans-will-not-be-published-until-august-20-938933.html

westyIrl

heavydawson wrote: »

Perhaps, but the subsidy that will be available to the bidder is part of the overall €545 million contingency set aside by the government.

From: https://www.businesspost.ie/news/government-tight-lipped-potential-compensation-broadband-backers-446782

Yes, it is good that such payments would be capped somewhere within that contingency. However, I don't see the Govt. making any savings as purported on this aspect as I highly doubt OE will just sit back and let NBI hoover up subcribers installing kilometers of fibre when all OE need to do is run fibre distances an order of magnitude less in most instances.

Jim

heavydawson

westyIrl wrote: »

Yes, it is good that such payments would be capped somewhere within that contingency. However, I don't see the Govt. making any savings as purported on this aspect as I highly doubt OE will just sit back and let NBI hoover up subcribers installing kilometers of fibre when all OE need to do is run fibre distances an order of magnitude less in most instances.

Jim

It does seem odd. But also remember that it's probably a lot more costly (relative to the cost-per-premise of the 240k) on a per-km basis for OpenEir to ask those contractors to head out and "finish those last 3 premises" at this stage. It's a messy job for them too. Speculation on my part, but the work orders for all those mini-deployments would be a nightmare I'd imagine. Especially if they weren't going to completely "bridge" existing fibre deployments and started only cherry-picking a subset of the types of houses highlighted above. I'm assuming its clusters of houses like that that make up a good portion of the 150k premises Carolan Lennon suggested they'd identified as commercially viable earlier in the year. Fingers crossed they just focus on the urban buildout and stop interfering with the intervention area.

tsue921i8wljb3

Hypothetically speaking if you were eir and you wanted you cause issues for NBI you would leave areas like those highlighted over the past few posts as they are high cost for low reward for NBI. You would then focus on the higher density areas on the fringes of open eir fibre coverage and target those. Hypothetically!

KOR101

It will be obvious to Eir from activity on the ground how NBI is planning to progress its build out and nothing is going to happen quickly. Eir can react dynamically to this so the question is at what point does it no longer make commercial sense for Eir to encroach any further. It's a nightmare for NBI.

ArrBee

plodder wrote: »

Whatever the reason for it, I'm just saying that, looking forward, even if NBI is not going to use Eir's dark fibre, only their poles and ducts, there has to be many cases like this, where it makes more sense to come to some agreement where they get served by Openeir rather than NBI.

To what benefit though?
I'm not saying there is no benefit to reusing EIRs fibre but looking to know what you see as the benefit....


The reasons given for not using it are around contractual obligations and the inability of EIR to provide SLAs that match what NBI and govt have.
There's no escaping that.
There are also other benefits to having a separate network away from EIR considering how they have behaved in this process.

Yes, it costs more (not sure if it adds much to the total cost?)
Yes, it takes longer
But I think it will be a better end result if EIR's fibre is NOT used. Plus it means the gamble they took doesn't pan out for them, and will probably result in them extending to the pockets anyway - IMO

clohamon

Diary note for 24/07/2019

4.00 PM: WHY DO WE HAVE FREQUENT SERIOUS COST OVERRUNS ON INFRASTRUCTURE PROJECTS IN IRELAND AND WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES?

The recent disclosures of jaw-dropping increases in the budgeted cost of the National Children’s Hospital and the roll-out of the National Broadband Plan raise many questions about the capacity of the State to spend public money with “propriety, regularity and integrity”, as it is officially expressed......
http://www.macgillsummerschool.com/2018-programme/

Panellists: Robert Watt, Colm McCarthy, Karlin Lillington
Moderator: Eddie Molloy

Webcast to be available here at 4:00pm
https://donegalcoco.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/435394

Bored Accountant

westyIrl wrote: »

I'd wager OpenEir may start to connect up these sporadic dwellings once they see NBI coming their way. They are now the low hanging fruit for OpenEir.

OpenEir won't started to connect any low hanging fruit, because that would remove the need for the NBI to roll out fibre, which would result in eir losing out on rental of km's of poles and ducts for the NBI fibre to the handful of homes.
OpenEir will make more from rental of the poles and ducts over 20 years than they would from connecting the couple of houses.

dam099

Bored Accountant wrote: »

OpenEir won't started to connect any low hanging fruit, because that would remove the need for the NBI to roll out fibre, which would result in eir losing out on rental of km's of poles and ducts for the NBI fibre to the handful of homes.
OpenEir will make more from rental of the poles and ducts over 20 years than they would from connecting the couple of houses.

Their behaviour over the last couple of weeks would suggest otherwise.

plodder

ArrBee wrote: »

To what benefit though?
I'm not saying there is no benefit to reusing EIRs fibre but looking to know what you see as the benefit....


The reasons given for not using it are around contractual obligations and the inability of EIR to provide SLAs that match what NBI and govt have.
There's no escaping that.
There are also other benefits to having a separate network away from EIR considering how they have behaved in this process.

Yes, it costs more (not sure if it adds much to the total cost?)
Yes, it takes longer
But I think it will be a better end result if EIR's fibre is NOT used. Plus it means the gamble they took doesn't pan out for them, and will probably result in them extending to the pockets anyway - IMO

The main benefit would be a reduction in the subsidy paid out by the state. If that can't be achieved then there isn't much point from a public perspective. As far as I'm concerned though, all this is in play until the contract is signed.

clohamon

clohamon wrote: »

Diary note for 24/07/2019



Panellists: Robert Watt, Colm McCarthy, Karlin Lillington
Moderator: Eddie Molloy

Webcast to be available here at 4:00pm
https://donegalcoco.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/435394

So, some bits missed due to buffering but,

Robert Watt kept schtumm saying that it’s civil servants job to advise. Decision made the other way. Minister should get credit for publishing civil service advice. If you want his opinion talk to him in the pub later.
Colm McCarthy said Cost Benefit Analysis should never be commissioned by the agency delivering the project.
Karlin Lillington wants something better/cheaper than NBP. Says it's 'full of insanity', claims entire Eircom network is being overbuilt by NBI. Recommends we stop, but proposes no alternative.

Moderator Eddie Molloy put in a dig also.

heavydawson

clohamon wrote: »

So, some bits missed due to buffering but,

Robert Watt kept schtumm saying that it’s civil servants job to advise. Decision made the other way. Minister should get credit for publishing civil service advice. If you want his opinion talk to him in the pub later.
Colm McCarthy said Cost Benefit Analysis should never be commissioned by the agency delivering the project.
Karlin Lillington wants something better/cheaper than NBP. Says it's 'full of insanity', claims entire Eircom network is being overbuilt by NBI. Recommends we stop, but proposes no alternative.

Moderator Eddie Molloy put in a dig also.

Has the NBP technically overrun its cost? :-)
I mean we're only at that stage if we end up spending more than the 2.97 billion we've committed (but not handed over)
The childrens hospital, as I understand is already over-running its projected costs even at this early stage of construction.

And I'm ignoring the original 500 million cost for NBP because that was for a very different project specification (among other things 30mbps vs the current 150mbps minimum).

clohamon

heavydawson wrote: »

Has the NBP technically overrun its cost? :-)

That point was made too, i.e. that it's hard to say there's been an overrun until there's a hard bid that's been accepted, and a contract.

Watt said that they had some experience with roads now, but bespoke projects were much more difficult to control.

KOR101

AWeckler: If there was an election in October and you became minister, wouldn't you do a 180-degree turn and run with the current process, in a similar way to how Denis Naughten and then Richard Bruton, both of whom were sceptical about the National Broadband Plan process, got into the ministerial seat?

TDooley: No, I don't think I would. The Department of Finance is saying that we don't have the €3bn. There are so many other projects around the country that are not funded. We're facing Brexit too.

There is additional cost here that is not funded three, five years out. And this is a long-term project that requires very significant demand and resources.

So it's not there. We could afford the €1bn [that Eir is proposing]. And I can assure you that if I was the minister, in advance of the signing of any contract, I'd be sitting down with Eir.

I'd also be sitting down with the regulator. I think we'd very quickly figure out whether Eir was serious or not. I don't think the Government has done that.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/dooley-go-back-to-eir-for-rural-broadband-well-all-save-money-38343155.html

clohamon

KOR101 wrote: »

AWeckler: If there was an election in October and you became minister, wouldn't you do a 180-degree turn and run with the current process, in a similar way to how Denis Naughten and then Richard Bruton, both of whom were sceptical about the National Broadband Plan process, got into the ministerial seat?

TDooley: No, I don't think I would. The Department of Finance is saying that we don't have the €3bn. There are so many other projects around the country that are not funded. We're facing Brexit too.

There is additional cost here that is not funded three, five years out. And this is a long-term project that requires very significant demand and resources.

So it's not there. We could afford the €1bn [that Eir is proposing]. And I can assure you that if I was the minister, in advance of the signing of any contract, I'd be sitting down with Eir.

I'd also be sitting down with the regulator. I think we'd very quickly figure out whether Eir was serious or not. I don't think the Government has done that.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/dooley-go-back-to-eir-for-rural-broadband-well-all-save-money-38343155.html

Extraordinary stuff. He doesn't seem to accept the reality of EC State Aid Guidelines or how a Minister may interact with ComReg under the Irish statutory framework.

That's politics folks!

Orebro

KOR101 wrote: »

AWeckler: If there was an election in October and you became minister, wouldn't you do a 180-degree turn and run with the current process, in a similar way to how Denis Naughten and then Richard Bruton, both of whom were sceptical about the National Broadband Plan process, got into the ministerial seat?

TDooley: No, I don't think I would. The Department of Finance is saying that we don't have the €3bn. There are so many other projects around the country that are not funded. We're facing Brexit too.

There is additional cost here that is not funded three, five years out. And this is a long-term project that requires very significant demand and resources.

So it's not there. We could afford the €1bn [that Eir is proposing]. And I can assure you that if I was the minister, in advance of the signing of any contract, I'd be sitting down with Eir.

I'd also be sitting down with the regulator. I think we'd very quickly figure out whether Eir was serious or not. I don't think the Government has done that.

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/dooley-go-back-to-eir-for-rural-broadband-well-all-save-money-38343155.html

Just go away and stop embarrassing yourself Timmy.

KOR101

Peter Hendrick, Chief Executive of National Broadband Ireland, interviewed on Clare FM.

http://www.clare.fm/news/infrastructure/work-national-broadband-plan-clare-begin-end-year/

heavydawson

Siro got another 200 million in funding:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-secures-200m-funding-package-for-broadband-rollout-1.3967474
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-now-a-serious-challenger-to-eir-in-fibre-arms-race-1.3967160

In other news, Vodafone Europe selling their mast infrastructure to private equity to fund 5G rollout.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/vodafone-to-create-europe-s-largest-mobile-mast-company-1.3968193

And finally, I didn't catch this at the time but:

In his inaugural speech as British prime minister Boris Johnson outlined his priorities which included, building a full FTTH network to all homes in UK by 2023.

AlmightyCushion

heavydawson wrote: »

Siro got another 200 million in funding:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-secures-200m-funding-package-for-broadband-rollout-1.3967474
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-now-a-serious-challenger-to-eir-in-fibre-arms-race-1.3967160

In other news, Vodafone Europe selling their mast infrastructure to private equity to fund 5G rollout.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/vodafone-to-create-europe-s-largest-mobile-mast-company-1.3968193

And finally, I didn't catch this at the time but:

Boris made plenty of other promises that he won't keep either.

heavydawson

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

Boris made plenty of other promises that he won't keep either.

He's a politician. Goes without saying :-)

heavydawson

One of the takeaways from the Siro interview in the IT, was this quote from the CEO:

So how well has it done? “In three years, we’ve gone from zero to quarter of a million homes,” Siro boss John Keaney says, noting Eir has similar metrics even though “it’s being going for years”. Both companies are locked in a fibre arms race and Keaney wastes no time getting a dig in.

“From a standing start that’s a significant build,” he says. “When we started, we had just the agreement that we could access the electrical infrastructure, that was it, there were no people, there were no contracts, there were no systems, no customers.”

A lot of the anti-GMC brigade tout the fact that they have no systems, crew, etc in place to roll it out. Looks like Siro were in a similar position, and just got on with it regardless. Where there's a will, etc....

ED E

SIRO weren't really in the same position though. Vodafone have huge experience as does ESB Telco.

plodder

heavydawson wrote: »

Siro got another 200 million in funding:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-secures-200m-funding-package-for-broadband-rollout-1.3967474
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-now-a-serious-challenger-to-eir-in-fibre-arms-race-1.3967160

In other news, Vodafone Europe selling their mast infrastructure to private equity to fund 5G rollout.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/vodafone-to-create-europe-s-largest-mobile-mast-company-1.3968193

And finally, I didn't catch this at the time but:

In his inaugural speech as British prime minister Boris Johnson outlined his priorities which included, building a full FTTH network to all homes in UK by 2023.

I don't know which is correct but Peter Hendrick said a date of 2033 for the UK FTTH rollout in that Clare FM interview, which is a long way out, but more realistic than 2023 surely.

heavydawson

plodder wrote: »

I don't know which is correct but Peter Hendrick said a date of 2033 for the UK FTTH rollout in that Clare FM interview, which is a long way out, but more realistic than 2023 surely.

The current target is 2033, but Boris said it was "laughably unambitious"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/06/17/boris-johnson-pledges-fast-internet-every-home-2015/

https://www.totaltele.com/503498/Full-fibre-for-all-by-2025-Time-to-get-your-finger-out-Boris

heavydawson

Full Weckler interview with Timmy D up:
https://soundcloud.com/user-401325083/the-eir-debate?in=user-401325083/sets/the-big-tech-show

heavydawson

heavydawson wrote: »

Siro got another 200 million in funding:
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-secures-200m-funding-package-for-broadband-rollout-1.3967474
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/siro-now-a-serious-challenger-to-eir-in-fibre-arms-race-1.3967160

In other news, Vodafone Europe selling their mast infrastructure to private equity to fund 5G rollout.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/vodafone-to-create-europe-s-largest-mobile-mast-company-1.3968193

And finally, I didn't catch this at the time but:

Different take on the same announcement from the Indo:
https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/siro-cuts-internal-funding-for-its-fibre-broadband-rollout-by-200m-38349296.html

babi-hrse

ED E wrote: »

SIRO weren't really in the same position though. Vodafone have huge experience as does ESB Telco.

Did siro not use actavo formerly sierra

Marlow

ED E wrote: »

SIRO weren't really in the same position though. Vodafone have huge experience as does ESB Telco.

Vodafone have had no input into SIROs network. At all. They have provided SIRO with a basic network infrastructure for management between the cabs and their provisioning infrastructure. Well .. and then they have obviously funded their build.

But SIRO was started from ground up and onwards without influence from neither ESB nor Vodafone. So what has been stated is quite accurate in that they started from absolutely ground zero.

That's also a good thing, because their systems are miles ahead from what Vodafone is using.

/M

Orebro

So, we have 6/7 weeks to go before the Ploughing Championships. I'm sure everyone in rural Ireland would love this thing to be signed sealed and delivered in time for this. Is there anything Timmy and his circus of misinformed clowns can do to delay or scupper it at this stage?

ussjtrunks

I just want it started so we can be optimistic about actually getting it instead of worrying about it not happening