NBP part II

tsue921i8wljb3

The Cush wrote: »

In the SBP later today, this from in front of the paywall



I assume this is about the Dept's latest consultation on Conclusion of the NBP Mapping Exercise for the Intervention Area - https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/consultations/Pages/Conclusion-of-NBP-Mapping-Exercise.aspx/

Without seeing the full article, is this really a story anymore? We know eir will not sign any further commitments to roll out commercial fibre into the intervention area as they have said many times and SIRO aren't in anyway interested.

eir may not sign contract about passing more premises in the intervention area but that is not the same as saying they will not extend into the area.

Obviously the DCCAE and NBI want a clear indication that X number of premises will be in the IA at contract signature with a clear roadmap of premises over the life of the contract. Now they are left in a sort of limbo where eir or others, though most likely eir, can pass premises at their leisure. Bear in mind that eir will have all the NBI network plans as the make ready work will have to be undertaken before NBI can extend into the IA. All eir have to do is get to enough premises first so that the NBI business case falls apart.

Not being able to finalise the map is just throwing more uncertainty onto an already uncertain project.

KOR101

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

All eir have to do is get to enough premises first so that the NBI business case falls apart.

It really depends on how the contract is structured. It could be structured as essentially a cost recovery plus ROI. I know there are subsidies in two parts, one for passing and another for connecting but is this the only payment to NBI. The Department does seem to be 'on the ball' about the risks and who bears what. It's hard to imagine that this has not been addressed.

You would know more about this than me, so I am just asking to understand. If it is just the subsidies, then you are right about big risks to the business case and EIR aren't just going to sit there and let this happen. Unless the plan is to buy NBI down the line.

Also, it doesn't appear that NBI will be so well capitalised that bankrupcy would be out the question.

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

It really depends on how the contract is structured. It could be structured as essentially a cost recovery plus ROI. I know there are subsidies in two parts, one for passing and another for connecting but is this the only payment to NBI. The Department does seem to be 'on the ball' about the risks and who bears what. It's hard to imagine that this has not been addressed.

You would know more about this than me, so I am just asking to understand. If it is just the subsidies, then you are right about big risks to the business case and EIR aren't just going to sit there and let this happen. Unless the plan is to buy NBI down the line.

Also, it doesn't appear that NBI will be so well capitalised that bankrupcy would be out the question.

To be honest with you, I don't know is the answer. I can only go on what has been said by DCCAE at Committee appearances and what has appeared in the press. A contingency fund of €480m for "14 discrete cost activities which we have identified with the bidder and which it could not, with any reasonable degree of certainty, put into its bid because they are subject to future events in years two, three and four. "

We can assume encroachment is one of these 14 discrete potential costs so some of that €480m may be used to mitigate encroachment. It would then become a numbers game of how much encroachment is too much to bear.

This is all speculation on my part and may be completely wrong. Perhaps, as you say, the contract is structured in such a way as to minimise this or perhaps eir have given up and will concentrate on their urban build.

Orebro

The NBI roadshow continues:

https://www.leitrimobserver.ie/news/home/437557/45-million-to-be-invested-in-leitrim-under-national-broadband-plan.html

https://carlow-nationalist.ie/2019/08/11/roll-out-of-high-speed-broadband-gets-one-step-closer-for-rural-dwellers/

grbear

Airwire: MartinL wrote: »

I'm not sure, how far back this is.

But if for example a service gets enabled for your premise that suits yourself better (like when you're on fixed wireless and FTTH comes along) and you're in contract with us, we can always change that for you, as long as the service is in our portfolio.

Our portfolio currently covers 2 generations of fixed wireless, VDSL, OpenEIR and SIRO FTTH. We have been negotiating with eNet on access to their FTTx platform in Loughrea and we will be negotiating with NBI, should the contract get signed.

That way binding you to a contract (at least with us) doesn't really matter.

Its probably 13 or 14 years ago.

irishfeen

Very smart move from Fine Gael in releasing the €€ figures for each county and constituency.

20,000 premises in Cork North West alone with overall €290m being spent in Cork, that will play very well on the ground.

westyIrl

irishfeen wrote: »

Very smart move from Fine Gael in releasing the €€ figures for each county and constituency.

20,000 premises in Cork North West alone with overall €290m being spent in Cork, that will play very well on the ground.

All politics are local. The co-ordinated PR between the Govt and NBI in recent weeks is very clever indeed. It certainly indicates final contract negotiations are going well and hopefully a signing circa ploughing championship, assuming of course no major grenades are thrown in the Communications Committee report due to be released next Tuesday.

Jim

user1842

westyIrl wrote: »

All politics are local. The co-ordinated PR between the Govt and NBI in recent weeks is very clever indeed. It certainly indicates final contract negotiations are going well and hopefully a signing circa ploughing championship, assuming of course no major grenades are thrown in the Communications Committee report due to be released next Tuesday.

Jim

Or assuming Eir dont throw in a grenade.

Orebro

user1842 wrote: »

Or assuming Eir dont throw in a grenade.

They've been well and truly debunked with the carry on in front of the committee - lets hope they crawl back under their rock and we hear nothing more from them from now on.

The Cush

Orebro wrote: »

They've been well and truly debunked with the carry on in front of the committee - lets hope they crawl back under their rock and we hear nothing more from them from now on.

The article I quoted above says both eir and SIRO are going to make a submission to the Dept consultation but no signed committment, let's see where that goes.

clohamon

The Cush wrote: »

The article I quoted above says both eir and SIRO are going to make a submission to the Dept consultation but no signed committment, let's see where that goes.

Eircom would almost certainly submit the 35K extra rural. There should be no issue with a commitment agreement as apparently they're already completed.

Not sure why they haven't been removed from the map already. If the retailers have the eircodes then the Department should have them also.

tsue921i8wljb3

clohamon wrote: »

Eircom would almost certainly submit the 35K extra rural. There should be no issue with a commitment agreement as apparently they're already completed.

Not sure why they haven't been removed from the map already. If the retailers have the eircodes then the Department should have them also.

It's explained in the accompanying pdf.

eir has also reported that an additional circa 34k premises outside but contiguous to the 300k committed to in April 2017 have also been passed at the end of June 2019. However, as these premises are not covered by the Commitment Agreement with eir, they have to date remained in the Intervention Area i.e. represented as Amber. Where eir demonstrates that these premises are in fact passed and subject to providing sufficient assurances that at least 95% of orders received from these premises will be connected at the standard regulated connection charge, it is proposed that these premises will be removed from the Intervention Area.

I don't think there is any doubt that these premises will be removed.

westyIrl

Additional cost of NBP expected to come from future revenues

In the latest series of spending review papers, the Government said additional funding of up to €477 million will be required for the initial rollout over the period 2019 to 2022, and a total of €1.6 billion up to 2027.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ballooning-broadband-costs-won-t-derail-other-state-projects-says-government-1.3987272

Some information in relation to spending plans for the NBP.

Jim

Grab All Association

Eircom have rolled fibre out to Fantane Borrisoleigh, a NBP area. Ready for drop points too! That’s a bit of a dick move. The Borrisoleigh rollout which I was part of completed in May 2018. It went from Borrisoleigh south to Bouladuff to north capinally Borrisoleigh. Always puzzled me why it never went to Fantane due to the cluster of houses there very nearby. So either it’s to rent to Enet or to spite them.

KOR101

Grab All Association wrote: »

Eircom have rolled fibre out to Fantane Borrisoleigh, a NBP area. Ready for drop points too! That’s a bit of a dick move. The Borrisoleigh rollout which I was part of completed in May 2018. It went from Borrisoleigh south to Bouladuff to north capinally Borrisoleigh. Always puzzled me why it never went to Fantane due to the cluster of houses there very nearby. So either it’s to rent to Enet or to spite them.

How many premises are we talking about? I wonder whether there are any other cases like that.

tsue921i8wljb3

The mapping consultation deadline has been extended by a week. I wonder why?

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/consultations/Pages/Conclusion-of-NBP-Mapping-Exercise.aspx/

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

How many premises are we talking about? I wonder whether there are any other cases like that.

It's likely they are part of the extra 34k premises that they passed in addition to the promised 300k.

Skygord

Grab All Association wrote: »

Eircom have rolled fibre out to Fantane Borrisoleigh, a NBP area. Ready for drop points too! That’s a bit of a dick move. The Borrisoleigh rollout which I was part of completed in May 2018. It went from Borrisoleigh south to Bouladuff to north capinally Borrisoleigh. Always puzzled me why it never went to Fantane due to the cluster of houses there very nearby. So either it’s to rent to Enet or to spite them.

That area is on Eir's rural FTTH rollout plan, coming from the Templederry exchange. You'll find it on OpenEir's map - always has been, but it must be one of the last to be completed.

Here's the map of the area from fibrerollout.ie: https://ibb.co/d5026sL

<snip>

KOR101

Noise.......

Fianna Fail is to call for Peter Smyth, an independent assessor, to take a fresh look at the tendering process after evidence emerged of links between Frank McCourt and Granahan McCourt, the government’s chosen bidder for the €5bn national broadband plan.

The Sunday Times revealed earlier this year that Granahan McCourt relied on the financial performance of a US company owned by Frank McCourt, a brother of Granahan chairman David McCourt, to meet qualifying criteria.

Smyth found in a previous report that the process had not been tainted by meetings between David McCourt and Denis Naughten, the communications minister who has since resigned.

Timmy Dooley, Fianna Fail’s spokesman on communications, said he would push the matter to a vote if necessary at this week’s meeting of the Oireachtas communications committee, which is due to finalise a report on the national broadband plan.

Dooley wants the committee to conclude in its report that “the interactions between the former minister for communications, David McCourt and Frank McCourt in New York have taken on new significance ... particularly in view of Granahan McCourt’s use of the assets of Frank McCourt to meet certain financial requirements during the tender process”.

He also wants the report to say that “it appears this information was not available to Peter Smyth, process auditor of the national broadband plan, during his review”. Smyth did not examine the consequences of Frank McCourt being a financial participant in the broadband scheme.

Frank McCourt, a billionaire who owns Olympique de Marseille football club and the rights to the Los Angeles marathon, attended a dinner with Naughten in July 2018 in New York.

Naughten resigned last October after it emerged he had had a series of private dinners with David McCourt. Smyth’s investigation found he and the businessman did not influence the tender process in favour of Granahan McCourt.

Questions about Frank McCourt’s presence at the dinner arose last May when the Department of Communications said it had relied on the finances of his company, McCourt Global, to meet the qualifying criteria in the assessment of Granahan McCourt’s tender submission.

Fine Gael members on the committee want the report to conclude the government should sign the proposed contracts and commence the rollout of broadband as quickly as possible.

Both Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein say they will not be supporting this recommendation. Fine Gael, which is in a minority on the committee, may issue a minority report.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fianna-fail-challenges-broadband-plan-5ccdpmkl7

The Cush

Sir Timmy is at it again, he wants Peter Smyth, the independent assessor who previously compiled the report of meetings between Min. Naughten and David McCourt, to investigate the tendering process and will push it to a vote at this week's Communication Committee meeting to finalise their report.

Fianna Fail challenges broadband plan

Fianna Fail is to call for Peter Smyth, an independent assessor, to take a fresh look at the tendering process after evidence emerged of links between Frank McCourt and Granahan McCourt, the government’s chosen bidder for the €5bn national broadband plan.

The Sunday Times revealed earlier this year that Granahan McCourt relied on the financial performance of a US company owned by Frank McCourt, a brother of Granahan chairman David McCourt, to meet qualifying criteria.

Smyth found in a previous report that the process had not been tainted by meetings between David McCourt and Denis Naughten, the communications minister who has since resigned.

Timmy Dooley, Fianna Fail’s spokesman on communications, said he would push the matter to a vote if necessary at this week’s meeting of the Oireachtas communications committee, which is due to finalise a report on the national broadband plan.

Dooley wants the committee to conclude in its report that “the interactions between the former minister for communications, David McCourt and Frank McCourt in New York have taken on new significance ... particularly in view of Granahan McCourt’s use of the assets of Frank McCourt to meet certain financial requirements during the tender process”.

He also wants the report to say that “it appears this information was not available to Peter Smyth, process auditor of the national broadband plan, during his review”. Smyth did not examine the consequences of Frank McCourt being a financial participant in the broadband scheme.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fianna-fail-challenges-broadband-plan-5ccdpmkl7

Disagreement in the Committee on the final conclusions could see Fine Geal members issue a separate minority report

Fine Gael members on the committee want the report to conclude the government should sign the proposed contracts and commence the rollout of broadband as quickly as possible.

Both Fianna Fail and Sinn Fein say they will not be supporting this recommendation. Fine Gael, which is in a minority on the committee, may issue a minority report.

The Committee meets in private session next Tuesday

Tue, 20 Aug 2019

12.00 Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment
CR1, LH 2000

Private Meeting

The Cush

Emmanuel Lemon Louse wrote: »

The mapping consultation deadline has been extended by a week. I wonder why?

https://www.dccae.gov.ie/en-ie/communications/consultations/Pages/Conclusion-of-NBP-Mapping-Exercise.aspx/

Extended now by a further 3 weeks to Sept 20th, a total 4 weeks extension from the original Aug 23rd. Pre-booked August holidays I assume is the reason, thought it odd at the time they would impose a tight 1 month deadline at this time of year.

The deadline for submissions has now been extended by three weeks to 5pm on 20th September 2019 and should be sent to nbpmapping@dccae.gov.ie

KOR101

The Cush wrote: »

Extended now by a further 3 weeks to Sept 20th, a total 4 weeks extension from the original Aug 23rd. Pre-booked August holidays I assume is the reason, thought it odd at the time they would impose a tight 1 month deadline at this time of year.

That's after the ploughing championship. Can they sign before the map is finalised?

The Cush

KOR101 wrote: »

That's after the ploughing championship. Can they sign before the map is finalised?

Can't see why not, they already know eir has passed up to 40,000 from that 542,000 NBP figure with others being covered by the urban rollout.

clohamon

Himself again, with another provocative headline.

Cork to get nearly double broadband fund of Mayo and Galway
Almost twice as much funding will be allocated to rolling out the National Broadband Plan (NBP) in Cork than in Galway, the county set to receive the next biggest investment, new figures have shown.

National Broadband Ireland (NBI), the preferred bidder for the state’s multi-billion-euro rural broadband scheme, plans to invest €290 million in Ireland’s largest county as part of its rollout. The money will cover 74,990 premises in Cork”
https://www.businesspost.ie/news/cork-get-nearly-double-broadband-fund-mayo-galway-450399

In fact, the spend per premises is higher in both Galway (€3,879) and Mayo (€4,098) than it is in Cork (€3,876). Not sure if that’s clear in the rest of the text. (paywall)

The "new figures" are probably from 7th May here.
https://dbei.gov.ie/en/News-And-Events/Department-News/2019/May/07052019.html#

KOR101

They say they don't expect any material change to the map. But under EU Guidelines for the Application of State Aid they must publishing the relevant information of the project and inviting comment.

I doubt they can sign until the consultation is complete. You can see also that they are providing the documentation for any company to enter into a commitment agreement if wish to.

The Cush

KOR101 wrote: »

You can see also that they are providing the documentation for any company to enter into a commitment agreement if wish to.

Which both eir and SIRO have said they won't be signing.

KOR101

Oh I agree. It's almost done and dusted in terms of it being signed. Eir have shot their bolt in terms of bringing the whole thing down.

KOR101

Also, someone has clearly complained twice about the deadline. It matters to someone.

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

That's after the ploughing championship. Can they sign before the map is finalised?

Would NBI be willing to enter a contract with the scope of the intervention area still uncertain? I don't believe so. Anyway, has any deadline been met in this interminable process? I won't believe it is happening until I see evidence of NBI putting fibre on poles.

westyIrl

Due later today

National Broadband Plan details to be subject of vote

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/national-broadband-plan-details-to-be-subject-of-vote-1.3991140

Jim

heavydawson

westyIrl wrote: »

Due later today



https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/national-broadband-plan-details-to-be-subject-of-vote-1.3991140

Jim

Yeesh. That doesn't make for good reading. Looks like delays are all but inevitable unless the government can ignore the committee report/votes completely.

Pique

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/national-broadband-network-should-remain-in-public-ownership-oireachtas-committee-recommends-945070.html

An Oireachtas Committee has called for the National Broadband Plan to remain in public ownership.
A review carried out by the Communications Committee concluded the existing plan is based on a flawed tendering process and ignored viable alternative options.
Committee member and Sinn Féin TD Brian Stanley says motions passed at the committee today found the State is actually carrying almost all of the risk of the project.
The State is investing €3bn, while the private operator is investing €220m.
Members also voted to re-open negotiations with the ESB in relation to the project.

celticbhoy27

Members also voted to re-open negotiations with the ESB in relation to the project

Jesus wept. Does this vote actually mean anything? More importantly is it a stumbling block?

westyIrl

Pique wrote: »

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/national-broadband-network-should-remain-in-public-ownership-oireachtas-committee-recommends-945070.html

Members also voted to re-open negotiations with the ESB in relation to the project.

They voted to re-open negotiations with a single entity (which would fall foul of state aid in any eventuality), that left the bidding process of its own free will.

Incompetent shower whoever voted for this approach.

Jim

clohamon

I suppose Timmy Dooley always had enough opposition TDs and Senators in Committee to cause trouble with this, but it's not clear how he can force a vote in the Dail without his party leader agreeing to it.

https://twitter.com/Ocionnaith/status/1163829698725634048

Presumably he, Brian Stanley, or Barry Cowen can supply some legal advice to back up the ESB proposal.

celticbhoy27

clohamon wrote: »

I suppose Timmy Dooley always had enough opposition TDs and Senators in Committee to cause trouble with this, but it's not clear how he can force a vote in the Dail without his party leader agreeing to it.

https://twitter.com/Ocionnaith/status/1163829698725634048

Presumably he, Brian Stanley, or Barry Cowen can supply some legal advice to back up the ESB proposal.

Reading a few news outlets which have picked this up. Looks like the government is not obliged to accept the committees recommendations and can continue on with the signing. Let's be honest these recommendations are the same old bs Timmy's been throwing around since the beginning. Sign the contract and stop wasting time

rodge123

I wonder what Michael Martin makes of Timmy’s crusade to constantly thwart and delay the nbp, seen as michaels county is in line to receive the largest sum of money from the state for it!
He really needs to put Timmmahh back in his box, the man is a clown as recently shown with his brexit tweet also.

FF can count on never receiving a vote for any election again from my household and a few for my friends also if they manage to delay this beyond the signing date of September as planned.

westyIrl

The report and vote do indeed seem a bit of a pointless exercise as I've just heard Timmy on the radio news saying it wasn't a red-line issue for FF and they wouldn't bring down the government if they're ignored. I'm sure he was made well aware of this FF stance by on high. So the signing is on...

Jim

BarryM

rodge123 wrote: »

FF can count on never receiving a vote for any election again from my household and a few for my friends also if they manage to delay this beyond the signing date of September as planned.

Wonderful example of 'throwback Ireland' It used be easy to say "that is a FF/FG house", glad it survives in yours :rolleyes:

rodge123

BarryM wrote: »

Wonderful example of 'throwback Ireland' It used be easy to say "that is a FF/FG house", glad it survives in yours :rolleyes:

Explain what’s “throwback ireland” about never giving a certain party a vote again based on them scuppering a plan that is very important to you?

Orebro

So I presume we hold our breaths today and wait to see what the Gov/Richard Brutons response to this is? Let’s hope they see this as the ambush it is and push ahead with the signing.

The Cush

Orebro wrote: »

So I presume we hold our breaths today and wait to see what the Gov/Richard Brutons response to this is? Let’s hope they see this as the ambush it is and push ahead with the signing.

Committee recommendations are non binding, of course the Dept and government will respectfully consider the recommendations and respond and then file it beside the PAC's last report.

Other big issues to be dealt with next month when the Dáil returns, Brexit, cervical check, public services card etc.

clohamon

Recommendations as related by Examiner.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/--945170.html

• a three-month external independent review by an expert “with international experience” should take place into the Government’s existing broadband plan, its €3bn cost, and tendering process
• this review should be given the right to recommend a universal service obligation, which would ensure any broadband system remains in public ownership
• it should also be allowed to recommend directly awarding a new contract to ESB or Eir to allow either firm to provide broadband at a fraction of the existing €3bn predicted cost, after Eir claimed earlier this year it could provide the service for around €1bn
• a full cost-benefit analysis into the National Broadband Plan should take place before any contract with Granahan McCourt is signed
• and that the Government’s previous broadband review by Peter Smyth should be “updated” within a month due to fresh evidence “which emerged linking Frank McCourt with the Granahan McCourt bid”.

Difficult to see where the testimony of KPMG, Analysys Mason, PWC, Eircom, ESB ComReg, DCCAE has been absorbed.

As far as I could see, the level of attendance at the meetings was abysmal. And the European Commission were seemingly never asked to attend or submit an opinion.

westyIrl

This is Timmy on Clare FM following vote (nothing new)

https://www.mixcloud.com/ClareFMNewsSports/timmy-dooley-speaking-to-clare-fms-james-mulhall-on-national-broadband-plan-review/

Reading through the recommendations, it should be quite easy for the Dept/Govt to respond and debunk most if not the entirety of them. For example, since when does a USO ensure infrastructure remains in public ownership?

Trying not to sound disrespectful or pretentious but I'd have thought a committee would come up with something more substantial, competent and constructive after 16 weeks.

Jim

The Cush

https://www.thejournal.ie/broadband-plan-contract-4776601-Aug2019/

- Communications Committee 70 page report to be published next week.

- One of the only recommendations not adopted by the committee was a proposal from Fine Gael members to sign the contract and to roll-out the network as soon as possible.

government sources have hit back at Fianna Fail’s position to carry out a review, stating that nothing new will be discovered.

“When the NBP was announced back in May, the opposition claimed they had an alternative that would be cheaper for the taxpayer and deliver broadband to rural Ireland more swiftly.

“After months of hearings, the opposition’s big plan is to delay the roll out, and instead commission more reports, and hire more consultants.

“It’s proof positive that there is no better plan,” they said.

BarryM

rodge123 wrote: »

Explain what’s “throwback ireland” about never giving a certain party a vote again based on them scuppering a plan that is very important to you?

You are probably too young.... but it was common that the 'head of the household' dictated how the voters in the house voted. I thought/think it is no longer the case.

Nothing to do with NBP.

rodge123

BarryM wrote: »

You are probably too young.... but it was common that the 'head of the household' dictated how the voters in the house voted. I thought/think it is no longer the case.

Nothing to do with NBP.

So you’re implying I have that much power to influence my friends vote as well as members of my household?
Didn’t occur to you that maybe they are all equally annoyed and can make up their own minds?!
Seen as we are jumping to wild assumptions, here’s one for you - you must be an old school ardent life long FF voter that’s upset people can see right through Timmy’s/FF stance on the NBP. Eye rolls x 100!!

careless sherpa

westyIrl wrote: »

This is Timmy on Clare FM following vote (nothing new)

https://www.mixcloud.com/ClareFMNewsSports/timmy-dooley-speaking-to-clare-fms-james-mulhall-on-national-broadband-plan-review/

Reading through the recommendations, it should be quite easy for the Dept/Govt to respond and debunk most if not the entirety of them. For example, since when does a USO ensure infrastructure remains in public ownership?

Trying not to sound disrespectful or pretentious but I'd have thought a committee would come up with something more substantial, competent and constructive after 16 weeks.

Jim

I thought they would have put Timmy into the attic after his act of national sabotage regarding Brexit. The man is a serious liability

clohamon

The Cush wrote: »

https://www.thejournal.ie/broadband-plan-contract-4776601-Aug2019/

- Communications Committee 70 page report to be published next week.
government sources have hit back at Fianna Fail’s position to carry out a review, stating that nothing new will be discovered.

“After months of hearings, the opposition’s big plan is to delay the roll out, and instead commission more reports, and hire more consultants.

Seems like someone would have to pay for these consultants. I'm guessing the Committee doesn't have the power to employ consultants.

The Cush

clohamon wrote: »

Seems like someone would have to pay for these consultants. I'm guessing the Committee doesn't have the power to employ consultants.

FF have a liking for consultant reports, Micheal Martin had lots of them done when he was health minister.