Water charges for excessive usage

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Incorrect Matthew, I intimated that lefties wanted control of water services, not IW.

Lookit... best thing for the lefties is get dug into the non private operations.

We all know that... PS ..Local Authorities, Fire Brigade, HSE, stuff like that.

Get well lodged in and you are on easy street.

C’mon man.... get real.

Embedded workers is what we have currently. And if ever a thing was bloated, it's IW. Point is, your fears are a reality as is lad.

Again, the LA's used contractors. Did for many years, currently do except now we've IW surplus to requirements.

Brendan Bendar

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Embedded workers is what we have currently. And if ever a thing was bloated, it's IW. Point is, your fears are a reality as is lad.

Again, the LA's used contractors. Did for many years, currently do except now we've IW surplus to requirements.

And round and round we go..... good lad.

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

And round and round we go..... good lad.

Yep, because you dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge. Your comment was baloney chief.

Brendan Bendar

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Yep, because you dodge, duck, dip, dive and dodge. Your comment was baloney chief.

What comment was baloney pal.

is_that_so

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Embedded workers is what we have currently. And if ever a thing was bloated, it's IW. Point is, your fears are a reality as is lad.

Again, the LA's used contractors. Did for many years, currently do except now we've IW surplus to requirements.

The surplus is the other way round. Most of those LAs seconded or "attached" to IW will be gone in 5 years. At the time of the IW setup, they recruited 1600 IIRC and were saddled with a further 2500 LA staff for 10 years, courtesy of the genius of one P Hogan.

James Brown

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

What comment was baloney pal.

What the lefties want is a workforce who when bedded in cannot be gotten rid of

We have that in IW as is.

is_that_so wrote: »

The surplus is the other way round. Most of those LAs seconded or "attached" to IW will be gone in 5 years. At the time of the IW setup, they recruited 1600 IIRC and were saddled with a further 2500 LA staff for 10 years, courtesy of the genius of one P Hogan.

The newly hired IW workers are embedded and can't be easily let go which was Bren's suggestion that the lefties wanted.
I guarantee you IW has a great deal more surplus staff than any LA water dept. ever did.

Benedict

We are told that the "generous" allowance of 1.7 times average usage is on the understanding that the average is 85 litres per day per person (based on 4 sharing). But remember that a 5 minute power alone is around 125 litres.

Bear in mind that the current allowance is only guaranteed for a limited period - and when that expires, what will the revised allowance be?

So even at 1.7 times allowance, the householder has to watch it in order to avoid bills of up to E500 per annum for excessive usage.

(And remember, you might have to earn a lot more than 500 to end up with 500 net.)

OK so this would be fine - IF it weren't for the fact that only about 55% of IW users will have to worry about how much they use.

The other 45%?

Happy days!

Sleeper12

Benedict wrote:

We are told that the "generous" allowance of 1.7 times average usage is on the understanding that the average is 85 litres per day per person (based on 4 sharing). But remember that a 5 minute power alone is around 125 litres.

Average power shower pumps out 14 litres of water per minute. This is 140 litres for 10 minutes and 70 litres for 5 minutes. Not disagreeing with your point just fact checking

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

We are told that the "generous" allowance of 1.7 times average usage is on the understanding that the average is 85 litres per day per person (based on 4 sharing). But remember that a 5 minute power alone is around 125 litres.

Bear in mind that the current allowance is only guaranteed for a limited period - and when that expires, what will the revised allowance be?

So even at 1.7 times allowance, the householder has to watch it in order to avoid bills of up to E500 per annum for excessive usage.

(And remember, you might have to earn a lot more than 500 to end up with 500 net.)

OK so this would be fine - IF it weren't for the fact that only about 55% of IW users will have to worry about how much they use.

The other 45%?

Happy days!

A water saving shower head reduces the amount of water dramatically. Just saying!

Don’t worry yourself about those of us with meters. We’ll make sure to keep our usage as low as possible. After all, some of us want to save the planet. We just don’t go around shouting about it.

Benedict

Some of the newer fancy ones with boosted pressure output, large head and multi-directional outlets really do eat up the litres - but yes, for the average power shower I'm sure you (Sleeper 12) are right.



I think that if IW could figure out a way of convincing the public that the non-metered houses would be dealt with equally, then they'd be on a winner.


The fairness issue is the elephant in the room and it is hard to see how they can fix that with their current plan.



They've already accepted that the thousands upon thousands of apartments will not be subject to a quota and even that alone is enough to scupper their plan. And their childish insistence that they will know what non-metered homes are using (and bill them accordingly) is not helping them at all because anyone with a brain knows this is nonsense.

Sleeper12

Benedict wrote:

Some of the newer fancy ones with boosted pressure output, large head and multi-directional outlets really do eat up the litres - but yes, for the average power shower I'm sure you (Sleeper 12) are right.

It's what I do for a living

K.Flyer

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A water saving shower head reduces the amount of water dramatically. Just saying! .

You shouldn''t use them on instant hot water showers, they can cause problems with the internal pump and the heating of the water.


On a slightly off topic note, and not wanting to give them any ideas, how come gas and electricity suppliers don't impose excessive usage tariffs.

This excessive usage fee from Irish Water is going to be their back door way to getting water charges going, but only on half the country.

Benedict

K.Flyer wrote: »

You shouldn''t use them on instant hot water showers, they can cause problems with the internal pump and the heating of the water.


On a slightly off topic note, and not wanting to give them any ideas, how come gas and electricity suppliers don't impose excessive usage tariffs.

This excessive usage fee from Irish Water is going to be their back door way to getting water charges going, but only on half the country.

If it wasn't for the unfairness issue, it could have been the "back door" to introducing charges. Gradually decrease the quota and increase the fines and eventually, effectively you'll have to pay for a second cup of tea with your breakfast.


But once they backed off when householders refused to allow installation, they'd had it. The war was lost - and it's still lost.

Brendan Bendar

Benedict wrote: »

If it wasn't for the unfairness issue, it could have been the "back door" to introducing charges. Gradually decrease the quota and increase the fines and eventually, effectively you'll have to pay for a second cup of tea with your breakfast.


But once they backed off when householders refused to allow installation, they'd had it. The war was lost - and it's still lost.

Yes.... and Middle Ireland was stiffed...... but it won’t happen again.

charlie14

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Yes.... and Middle Ireland was stiffed...... but it won’t happen again.

It wasn`t an attempt at stiffing just the middle class.
It was an attempt at stiffing all and sundry.
In fairness to the middle class they played a major part in defeating that attempt by marching in the protests, scaring the life out of FG/Lab TD`s and casting their votes in GE 2016

James Brown

charlie14 wrote: »

It wasn`t an attempt at stiffing just the middle class.
It was an attempt at stiffing all and sundry.
In fairness to the middle class they played a major part in defeating that attempt by marching in the protests, scaring the life out of FG/Lab TD`s and casting their votes in GE 2016

And that's when they made the clever move of trying to make it all about Paul Murphy. Easier to knock Murphy than the electorate. And Leo and his "very sinister fringe" and his pal likening them to ISIS.
My local FG TD lied in the Herald that her clinic was over run by protesters and the poor OAP's there were terrified. She even blubbed a little on the radio.
Then the video came out. One or two people in the clinc, as OAP's came in to give out to her. Her elderly neighbours were the protesters. There was zero intimidation.

Benedict

Still wondering if even one single home received the warning letter for over-use supposed to be sent out in quarter-3 to anyone using too much.

If nobody got one, does that mean nobody's overusing? Or is it just another empty threat?

James Brown

Benedict wrote: »

Still wondering if even one single home received the warning letter for over-use supposed to be sent out in quarter-3 to anyone using too much.

If nobody got one, does that mean nobody's overusing? Or is it just another empty threat?

The over use and leaks was a red herring to justify metering. We don't over use and the mains leaks are the real concern. The meters was just a nice earning angle and a solid from Fine Gael to Denis O'Brien IMO.

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

Still wondering if even one single home received the warning letter for over-use supposed to be sent out in quarter-3 to anyone using too much.

If nobody got one, does that mean nobody's overusing? Or is it just another empty threat?

Has it actually been implemented yet? Is it just a proposal?

Brendan Bendar

charlie14 wrote: »

It wasn`t an attempt at stiffing just the middle class.
It was an attempt at stiffing all and sundry.
In fairness to the middle class they played a major part in defeating that attempt by marching in the protests, scaring the life out of FG/Lab TD`s and casting their votes in GE 2016

Don’t think so, it was a strategy which was handled extremely badly, really really badly.

What happened then was left wing politicians locked onto the concern by a very significant coterie of folk that unlike previous policies, this one will actually get down to us!!!

We will actually be on some books!!!

Suddenly slates were potentially lifted and flying columns were organised and the bullhorn politicians harnessed the fear .

Where are all the meters, my friend, not where the bonfires and burning cars were last night .

Time to get some straight talking about this episode on our books, I feel.

Benedict

Cut & Pasted from Irish Times July 17th 2019.

"Unmetered

Unmetered households, which are identified as having excessive use will be charged at the €500 cap unless a meter is installed. These households account for 45 per cent of Irish Water’s 1.6 million residential customers. In such cases, Irish Water will identify district meter areas where there appears to be excess use and dispatch crews to determine households which appeared to be using above normal levels of consumption. They would then have either a meter or flow monitoring device installed."

It's worrying when you get this sort of stuff coming from such a highly respected paper? Whoever penned this is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

Cut & Pasted from Irish Times July 17th 2019.

"Unmetered

Unmetered households, which are identified as having excessive use will be charged at the €500 cap unless a meter is installed. These households account for 45 per cent of Irish Water’s 1.6 million residential customers. In such cases, Irish Water will identify district meter areas where there appears to be excess use and dispatch crews to determine households which appeared to be using above normal levels of consumption. They would then have either a meter or flow monitoring device installed."

It's worrying when you get this sort of stuff coming from such a highly respected paper? Whoever penned this is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Could you post the link as well as copying and pasting?

Actually, ignore that request. I had already posted same but from a different source in response to your request regarding identifying users who exceed allowance.

Snow Garden

charlie14 wrote: »

It wasn`t an attempt at stiffing just the middle class.
It was an attempt at stiffing all and sundry.
In fairness to the middle class they played a major part in defeating that attempt by marching in the protests, scaring the life out of FG/Lab TD`s and casting their votes in GE 2016

I think M84 and Bendar have always been a bit jealous that they didn't take part the superquango protests. It was democracy in action with people from all walks of life saying no to waste, corruption, cronyism and bureaucracy. People power flexed it's muscles and won. They were wrong (and misleading) throughout the Irish Water saga and yet I admire their attempts to save face.

I wish more Irish people had marched against the EU forcing us to take private banking debt into our sovereign debt. Fine Gael said they would sort that out too but didn't bother.

Benedict

It's surprising to still read this sort of thing in our newspapers as recently as last July.

IW have never explained how they go from deciding that homes in Area X are using rather a lot of water to deciding that No 157 is the culprit.

Remember that many areas have apartments included so how do they even get as far as deciding that Area X is using too much and some front door needs to be knocked on because the apartments could be the culprits and they are out of the loop?

And then they "dispatch crews" to the suspected home - even though they have no way of suspecting a home which has no meter?

They dispatched crews before - remember when they were trying to install meters in the first place? And they were quickly told where to go.

You couldn't make this stuff up!

charlie14

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Don’t think so, it was a strategy which was handled extremely badly, really really badly.

What happened then was left wing politicians locked onto the concern by a very significant coterie of folk that unlike previous policies, this one will actually get down to us!!!

We will actually be on some books!!!

Suddenly slates were potentially lifted and flying columns were organised and the bullhorn politicians harnessed the fear .

Where are all the meters, my friend, not where the bonfires and burning cars were last night .

Time to get some straight talking about this episode on our books, I feel.

You are entitled to your opinion. What you are not entitled to is attempting to rewrite history in an effort to validate that opinion.
For someone who appears to regard yourself as a spokesperson typical of the middle class, you seem to regard them as a class of easily lead sheep.



Your lefties under the bed ramblings is a load of hokum.
The Irish Middle class were out in large numbers in the first protest marches. Mathematically alone, from those that refused to "engage" with Irish Water we know that included large numbers of them, and when General Election 2016 put the final nail in the coffin it wasn`t due to middle class FG voters voting for parties of the left.

charlie14

Benedict wrote: »

Cut & Pasted from Irish Times July 17th 2019.

"Unmetered

Unmetered households, which are identified as having excessive use will be charged at the €500 cap unless a meter is installed. These households account for 45 per cent of Irish Water’s 1.6 million residential customers. In such cases, Irish Water will identify district meter areas where there appears to be excess use and dispatch crews to determine households which appeared to be using above normal levels of consumption. They would then have either a meter or flow monitoring device installed."

It's worrying when you get this sort of stuff coming from such a highly respected paper? Whoever penned this is living in cloud cuckoo land!

Irish Water seem to still have a generous advertising/expenses budget judging by their print media and cinema ads.
Looks as if there is still enough in their budget to keep at least a few of those pet journalists from the past on side.

charlie14

Snow Garden wrote: »

I think M84 and Bendar have always been a bit jealous that they didn't take part the superquango protests. It was democracy in action with people from all walks of life saying no to waste, corruption, cronyism and bureaucracy. People power flexed it's muscles and won. They were wrong (and misleading) throughout the Irish Water saga and yet I admire their attempts to save face.

I wish more Irish people had marched against the EU forcing us to take private banking debt into our sovereign debt. Fine Gael said they would sort that out too but didn't bother.

Regardless of all his bluster I get the feeling that with these proposed excessive charges, the penny is finally dropping for Bendar.

Maryanne I stopped taking serious on her supposedly concern for state finances and water conservation when she claimed the "conservation grant" and regard her as nothing other than a blind supporter of FG ideology.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you post the link as well as copying and pasting?

Actually, ignore that request. I had already posted same but from a different source in response to your request regarding identifying users who exceed allowance.

What you posted regarding identifying users who exceed allowance is a fairy tale.

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

It's surprising to still read this sort of thing in our newspapers as recently as last July.

IW have never explained how they go from deciding that homes in Area X are using rather a lot of water to deciding that No 157 is the culprit.

Remember that many areas have apartments included so how do they even get as far as deciding that Area X is using too much and some front door needs to be knocked on because the apartments could be the culprits and they are out of the loop?

And then they "dispatch crews" to the suspected home - even though they have no way of suspecting a home which has no meter?

They dispatched crews before - remember when they were trying to install meters in the first place? And they were quickly told where to go.

You couldn't make this stuff up!

Maybe you should try reading what you’re copying and pasting.

Benedict

charlie14 wrote: »

What you posted regarding identifying users who exceed allowance is a fairy tale.

Fairy tale is an understatement.