Water charges for excessive usage

charlie14

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

A good decision then ...given it was the correct Blueprint.

Looks like a "Country before personal ego" decision to this poster...which is the sign of a Statesman rather than the usual gombeenism and ego driven decisions you get .

Credit to Kenny for that and bringing the Country with him on a difficult but necessary austerity path.

I don`t see that following an already agreed programme could be called putting the country before personal ego.


I`m not sure how much he brought the country with him. In 2016 Fine Gael lost over a third of their TD`s going from 76 to 50 and during the term of that government they managed to breath life into a Fianna Fail party they had the opportunity to bury for good.

charlie14

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

Can't disagree with any of the above ...just thought Kenny should get at least SOME credit and the o p was being a tad harsh.

Sorry if I contributed to a little derailing of the thread....

No problem.

As it happens I vaguely know Enda Kenny and he is a very personable man.

I just don`t rate him politically. It isn`t anything personal.

Plumbthedepths

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

A good decision then ...given it was the correct Blueprint.

Looks like a "Country before personal ego" decision to this poster...which is the sign of a Statesman rather than the usual gombeenism and ego driven decisions you get .

Credit to Kenny for that and bringing the Country with him on a difficult but necessary austerity path.

In case you missed it Kenny had no choice but to follow the plan as previously agreed. Not sure why some wish to rewrite history when it was so recent .
As for Kenny himself he is a fantastist and a proven liar.

Nevin Parsnipp

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

Can't disagree with any of the above ...just thought Kenny should get at least SOME credit and the o p was being a tad harsh.

Sorry if I contributed to a little derailing of the thread....

Nevin, you’ll be lambasted for taking the side of FG and Enda Kenny anyway.

I read an article in the week and damned if I can find it!
Basically it said that politicians don’t run the country. The Civil servants do. a la “Yes, Minister” and “Yes, Prime Minister”.

Nevin Parsnipp

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

In case you missed it Kenny had no choice but to follow the plan as previously agreed. Not sure why some wish to rewrite history when it was so recent .
As for Kenny himself he is a fantastist and a proven liar.

Look my friend...of course he had a choice...let's get real here ..if a Govt does not want to do something there are many ways to ensure it doesn't get done ..including fomenting civil unrest....calling an election etc

Water charges were in the plan but did not get done ...as yet anyway...reform of the legal system was also not done ...surprise surprise !

You sound like a dude who actually believes politicians ?

Get real pal ...politicians will say whatever they think you or the general public want to hear at any given time...a lot of what they say will never come to pass...that's the nature of politics .....you need to recognise that ....friendo !

Nevin Parsnipp

Deleted User wrote: »

Nevin, you’ll be lambasted for taking the side of FG and Enda Kenny anyway.

I read an article in the week and damned if I can find it!
Basically it said that politicians don’t run the country. The Civil servants do. a la “Yes, Minister” and “Yes, Prime Minister”.

That's what worries me Mary....a bigger crowd of clueless unaccountable twats you wouldn't find in the baboon enclosure in Fota Island ...

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

Nevin, you’ll be lambasted for taking the side of FG and Enda Kenny anyway.

I read an article in the week and damned if I can find it!
Basically it said that politicians don’t run the country. The Civil servants do. a la “Yes, Minister” and “Yes, Prime Minister”.

Civil servants do not vote through legislation or have the final say on awarding state contracts.
They just advise.



That said, this governments own senior civil servants in the Dept.of Public Expenditure strongly opposed the National Broadband Plan on a value for money basis but this government ignored them.
On that one with 3 Billion going to the sole bidder who will own the network I tend to agree with the civil servants.

charlie14

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

That's what worries me Mary....a bigger crowd of clueless unaccountable twats you wouldn't find in the baboon enclosure in Fota Island ...

When it came to the National Broadband 3 Billion the civil servants are not who I would be nominating for an enclosure on Fota Islands......

charlie14

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

Look my friend...of course he had a choice...let's get real here ..if a Govt does not want to do something there are many ways to ensure it doesn't get done ..including fomenting civil unrest....calling an election etc

Water charges were in the plan but did not get done ...as yet anyway...reform of the legal system was also not done ...surprise surprise !

You sound like a dude who actually believes politicians ?

Get real pal ...politicians will say whatever they think you or the general public want to hear at any given time...a lot of what they say will never come to pass...that's the nature of politics .....you need to recognise that ....friendo !

You sound like a dude that still believes the other 50% of households and all the apartments in the country are going to be metered at massive expense.
When do you see this happening after the complete clusterfcuk that has been made of it to date ?

Plumbthedepths

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

Look my friend...of course he had a choice...let's get real here ..if a Govt does not want to do something there are many ways to ensure it doesn't get done ..including fomenting civil unrest....calling an election etc

Water charges were in the plan but did not get done ...as yet anyway...reform of the legal system was also not done ...surprise surprise !

You sound like a dude who actually believes politicians ?

Get real pal ...politicians will say whatever they think you or the general public want to hear at any given time...a lot of what they say will never come to pass...that's the nature of politics .....you need to recognise that ....friendo !

If you are reliant on funding from the IMF and the EU you have no choice but to follow an agreed plan. Not sure how you arrived at an assumption I believe politicians? I pointed out that Kenny is a fantastist and a liar.

Benedict

The fact is that if something is essential to public health, it has to be supplied. So they need to shut up, supply everyone with the water they need because if they don't, there will be an upsurge in disease and infestations of all kinds and it will affect everyone - including rich people in posh areas (though not as much).

Look what happened with waste collection? Once the charges were introduced you got bin-bags full of domestic waste up every lane-way in every town and city in Ireland. You'll even find it dumped in fields, in country roads and on beaches. The place is destroyed with waste and I wonder if the cost in the end is more than if they had just kept supplying waste collection free as a right for every citizen.

Now they're trying to do it with water - and they get their way and eventually privatise it, the results will be catastrophic for everyone.

And remember folks, when they were requested to introduce a law against privatising water they backed off the the lame excuse of "It's not necessary because it'll never happen."

Oh really?

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

The fact is that if something is essential to public health, it has to be supplied. So they need to shut up, supply everyone with the water they need because if they don't, there will be an upsurge in disease and infestations of all kinds and it will affect everyone - including rich people in posh areas (though not as much).

Look what happened with waste collection? Once the charges were introduced you got bin-bags full of domestic waste up every lane-way in every town and city in Ireland. You'll even find it dumped in fields, in country roads and on beaches. The place is destroyed with waste and I wonder if the cost in the end is more than if they had just kept supplying waste collection free as a right for every citizen.

Now they're trying to do it with water - and they get their way and eventually privatise it, the results will be catastrophic for everyone.

And remember folks, when they were requested to introduce a law against privatising water they backed off the the lame excuse of "It's not necessary because it'll never happen."

Oh really?

Other countries have water charges. They accept them as necessary in order to provide a supply of water suitable to their needs. In the Uk, customers were given the choice of flat rate or meter. Meters proved cheaper in most cases.

What is it about the Irish attitude that shur Tis ok. Someone else will pay/pick up after me?

I would have thought that in these environmentally aware times that people would see the positives in paying for what they use.

Plumbthedepths

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Other countries have water charges. They accept them as necessary in order to provide a supply of water suitable to their needs. In the Uk, customers were given the choice of flat rate or meter. Meters proved cheaper in most cases.

What is it about the Irish attitude that shur Tis ok. Someone else will pay/pick up after me?

I would have thought that in these environmentally aware times that people would see the positives in paying for what they use.

The Irish saw the FG clusterf**k for what it was. A cash grab and a vehicle to enrich the mates of FG.
As for using the environment as an excuse, did you use the conservation grant for conserving water?

Benedict

The original plan was to cut-off or at least limit to a trickle the supply to those who did not - or could not pay.
This would have resulted in a spread of disease and infestations which could have brought the health-service to it's knees. (And it's bad enough as it is!)

There are very bright people right now trying to figure out how to make money by selling water to people who will become ill without it.

What will the long term cost be when people become ill and end up in hospital?

Privatising waste management made money for some but the cost to Joe and Mary Public has surely been greater than any gain.

The same will happen if people have to pay for water because there will be chaos.

Bass Reeves

Benedict wrote: »

The original plan was to cut-off or at least limit to a trickle the supply to those who did not - or could not pay.
This would have resulted in a spread of disease and infestations which could have brought the health-service to it's knees. (And it's bad enough as it is!)

There are very bright people right now trying to figure out how to make money by selling water to people who will become ill without it.

What will the long term cost be when people become ill and end up in hospital?

Privatising waste management made money for some but the cost to Joe and Mary Public has surely been greater than any gain.

The same will happen if people have to pay for water because there will be chaos.

You could make the same case about Electricity supply and about gas/oil heating. Both will have health implications. Yet in case of non payment of bills you will get cut off or not supplied.

There are always people trying to make money off other people and you do not have to be bright to do that.

In the case if water it was going to be reduced to a trickle. It would have little health implications but it would have an impact on your lifestyle. It happens elsewhere in Europe and us not seen as an issue. Group water schemes implement such a policy and again there seems to be no issue

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

Other countries have water charges. They accept them as necessary in order to provide a supply of water suitable to their needs. In the Uk, customers were given the choice of flat rate or meter. Meters proved cheaper in most cases.

What is it about the Irish attitude that shur Tis ok. Someone else will pay/pick up after me?

I would have thought that in these environmentally aware times that people would see the positives in paying for what they use.

Last time I checked Scotland and Northern Ireland were still in the UK, even if that may not last.


There are no metered water charges in Northern Ireland and in Scotland you have a choice to pay via a council tax which varies for different regions (similar to our LPT) or by meter. If you choose metered then that amount is deducted from your council tax.


In England water is supplied by private companies where the rate varies depending on the area you are in controlled by that company.
Privatisation in all its glory.


Other countries are actually rolling back on the system in England which you seem to favour.

France in particular, where local authorities are now taking back control of their water services.
Just because England deal with their water services in a certain manner I would not see why anyone should feel we should mimic them.


Btw, you do realise don`t you that in England it is not pay for what you use and that conservation is a consideration either.
These private companies sell water at bulk rates to companies.

Brendan Bendar

Benedict wrote: »

The fact is that if something is essential to public health, it has to be supplied. So they need to shut up, supply everyone with the water they need because if they don't, there will be an upsurge in disease and infestations of all kinds and it will affect everyone - including rich people in posh areas (though not as much).

Look what happened with waste collection? Once the charges were introduced you got bin-bags full of domestic waste up every lane-way in every town and city in Ireland. You'll even find it dumped in fields, in country roads and on beaches. The place is destroyed with waste and I wonder if the cost in the end is more than if they had just kept supplying waste collection free as a right for every citizen.

Now they're trying to do it with water - and they get their way and eventually privatise it, the results will be catastrophic for everyone.

And remember folks, when they were requested to introduce a law against privatising water they backed off the the lame excuse of "It's not necessary because it'll never happen."

Oh really?

What kind of ‘rubbish’ are you going on about with privatization of waste collection.

When waste collection was in the hands of the LAs there was no incentive for anyone to try to limit or sort their rubbish, just horse it all out and don’t worry about what happens it afterwards, who pays, how much it costs .

It’s frikken time some elements of the community took some responsibility for their environment and instead of riding in on the coattails of the compliant citizen by bunging everything into general taxation.

Boils my piss when I hear arguments like that .

Currently the North Inner City of Dublin is a dumping black spot .

The very same people,not all, of course , but a hard core, just dump with impunity safe in the knowledge that they will never be reported.

Why are some people so anxious to avoid any self responsibility for anything, to avoid anything that might single them out as having to actually contribute anything, however small to the greater good?

And you have people coming up with posts like that quoted.

The mind boggles.

Benedict

Bass Reeves wrote: »

You could make the same case about Electricity supply and about gas/oil heating. Both will have health implications. Yet in case of non payment of bills you will get cut off or not supplied.

There are always people trying to make money off other people and you do not have to be bright to do that.

In the case if water it was going to be reduced to a trickle. It would have little health implications but it would have an impact on your lifestyle. It happens elsewhere in Europe and us not seen as an issue. Group water schemes implement such a policy and again there seems to be no issue

The current plan is that a quota will be enforced against one half of users who will, effectively, be paying for the other half. That is the plan as it exists right now, at this very moment. Can you imagine such a plan being put before the public in respect of electricity or gas?


If water were reduced to a trickle, it could cause difficulties and to counteract these, users would use the trickle to fill large containers of water - perhaps overnight. So would any water actually be saved?


Free water has been a tradition in Ireland. Yes it costs money but so do, for example, parks. Will you begin to charge people for walking in the park because it cost money to maintain them? Why not charge an admission fee for children entering playgrounds - after all, they cost money to maintain?

astrofool

Benedict wrote: »

The current plan is that a quota will be enforced against one half of users who will, effectively, be paying for the other half. That is the plan as it exists right now, at this very moment. Can you imagine such a plan being put before the public in respect of electricity or gas?


If water were reduced to a trickle, it could cause difficulties and to counteract these, users would use the trickle to fill large containers of water - perhaps overnight. So would any water actually be saved?


Free water has been a tradition in Ireland. Yes it costs money but so do, for example, parks. Will you begin to charge people for walking in the park because it cost money to maintain them? Why not charge an admission fee for children entering playgrounds - after all, they cost money to maintain?

During water shortages, pressure is already reduced, and does save water, some people, of course, fill containers, but the overall effect is a water saving.

charlie14

astrofool wrote: »

During water shortages, pressure is already reduced, and does save water, some people, of course, fill containers, but the overall effect is a water saving.

I have done a small bit of research on this as well as taking directly to people in charge of area water supplies and the general census is that it does not save water. If anything it actually wastes water in that people fill containers when water is shut off and once it is back on just dump what they have not used and refill with fresh water.
What does save water in those situations is a hose pipe ban.

Benedict

If they figure out a fair and equitable way to charge for water, then fair enough. But they will simply have to do their homework before they lash out any more plans. For example, they have warned that any non-metered home which is suspected of using over the quota will be offered a meter and charged the full whack of e500 if they don't get one installed. This means that a family who are "suspected" of using even 1 litre over the quota will be hit for E500 - because IW don't install meters anymore.

So what are they talking about?

They simply cannot expect people to accept this sort of stupidity - they will have to do their homework in future and stop treating the Irish people like complete idiots.

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

If they figure out a fair and equitable way to charge for water, then fair enough. But they will simply have to do their homework before they lash out any more plans. For example, they have warned that any non-metered home which is suspected of using over the quota will be offered a meter and charged the full whack of e500 if they don't get one installed. This means that a family who are "suspected" of using even 1 litre over the quota will be hit for E500 - because IW don't install meters anymore.

So what are they talking about?

They simply cannot expect people to accept this sort of stupidity - they will have to do their homework in future and stop treating the Irish people like complete idiots.

You would think from this post that charges set in the day after detection. Customers are given at least a YEAR to correct any issues before further action is even considered!

Nevin Parsnipp

Deleted User wrote: »

You would think from this post that charges set in the day after detection. Customers are given at least a YEAR to correct any issues before further action is even considered!

You are right of course maryanne ......but some people never like to get facts and logic in the way of a good rant !

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

You would think from this post that charges set in the day after detection. Customers are given at least a YEAR to correct any issues before further action is even considered!

Seriously, has the penny not dropped yet ?
Even if from nothing else, it should have with this whole deferred rubbish.

Barring help from the fairies there isn`t a snowballs chance in hell of them doing it that would pass any cost to benefit analysis any day, month or year they choose to select.
Even with the help of the fairies they would have war on their hands.

This whole fantasy was nothing but Irish Water attempting to drum up support to continue with the mad metering plan.
Like everything else with this outfit it has been an abject failure.

Give it up and leave that fantasy world of theirs and join the rest of us in the real world

Spanish Eyes

Maryanne and Nevin Parsip should get a room! With free use of water of course. LOL.

Benedict

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

You are right of course maryanne ......but some people never like to get facts and logic in the way of a good rant !

Apologies if you are not referring to me - but if you are, please tell me what facts did I get wrong?

James Brown

Benedict wrote: »

Apologies if you are not referring to me - but if you are, please tell me what facts did I get wrong?

They won't reply clearly and won't clarify their own. It's a magical carousel that has it's memory wiped every revolution.
They still don't get the concept of general taxation and how it pertains to paying for services. Likely they think traffic lights are free because we've no 'Irish Traffic light' quango in place.
Enjoy the ride.

Brendan Bendar

Matt Barrett wrote: »

They won't reply clearly and won't clarify their own. It's a magical carousel that has it's memory wiped every revolution.
They still don't get the concept of general taxation and how it pertains to paying for services. Likely they think traffic lights are free because we've no 'Irish Traffic light' quango in place.
Enjoy the ride.

They know all about general taxation dude, you can be sure of that.,

Those that pay taxes pay it

Those that don’t ,don’t.

You can bet your life they know all about that one, compadre.

Don’t be singled out for anything, stay with the herd, just ‘tip around’ flying under the radar.

He heh heh..General Taxation is their favorite military man...heh heh.

Saves them from everything...

Plumbthedepths

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

They know all about general taxation dude, you can be sure of that.,

Those that pay taxes pay it

Those that don’t ,don’t.

You can bet your life they know all about that one, compadre.

Don’t be singled out for anything, stay with the herd, just ‘tip around’ flying under the radar.

He heh heh..General Taxation is their favorite military man...heh heh.

Saves them from everything...

Just a question but who in society doesn't pay taxes?

pablo128

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Just a question but who in society doesn't pay taxes?

Something something bullhorn, middle Ireland getting stiffed, etc. We've been down this road many times with Brendan.