Water charges for excessive usage

NovemberWren

Benedict wrote: »

But is it not strange that IW are not making any attempt to show exactly how they will be able to nail the non-metered homes if they breach the quota? They must be aware that nobody believes they can do it - the mysterious "plumber" thinks he knows the answer but we're not going to be let in on his secret apparently.

I notice that when politicians are asked about their plans for the water-charges if they win the election, the shutters go down straight away.

Some company called 'Vimpex' at Nore Road, Dub.Ind.Est. (left of Glasnevin) might know. I think (but am not certain) that some of their 'Hydrosense Water Detection' is used by IW.

Could it be by; knowing the aggregate amount, and minus the use of houses on either side, shows then the use of the mid-house.

charlie14

NovemberWren wrote: »

Some company called 'Vimpex' at Nore Road, Dub.Ind.Est. (left of Glasnevin) might know. I think (but am not certain) that some of their 'Hydrosense Water Detection' is used by IW.

Could it be by; knowing the aggregate amount, and minus the use of houses on either side, shows then the use of the mid-house.

I would doubt it.
Hydrosense detection is primarily used for internal leak or moisture build up detection in buildings.
Usually large buildings such as office blocks by way of a zonal system connected to a central digital display panel. Similar to a zonal security system.
It is highly sensitive to relatively small volumes so I cannot see it being much use for mains leaks or exceeding allowances.

Benedict

NovemberWren wrote: »

Some company called 'Vimpex' at Nore Road, Dub.Ind.Est. (left of Glasnevin) might know. I think (but am not certain) that some of their 'Hydrosense Water Detection' is used by IW.

Could it be by; knowing the aggregate amount, and minus the use of houses on either side, shows then the use of the mid-house.

So Nos 1 and 3 have meters and No 2 doesn't - nor do 349 more houses on the estate. So how does IW calculate what No 2 has used without knowing what the other unmetered 349 homes have used? And how do they know what the other unmetered 349 homes have used?

NovemberWren

charlie14 wrote: »

I would doubt it.
Hydrosense detection is primarily used for internal leak or moisture build up detection in buildings.
Usually large buildings such as office blocks by way of a zonal system connected to a central digital display panel. Similar to a zonal security system.
It is highly sensitive to relatively small volumes so I cannot see it being much use for mains leaks or exceeding allowances.

I'm a bit confused here; when you say mains leaks, do you mean the farther away from estates, exceptionally larger diameter pipes; that would have massive water; and then rushes through to the smaller diameter pipes for homes?

anyhows, that hydrosense detection, (in u.s.), can be attached by Anybody to Any water pipe, and a wireless signal can go out from it.

Dunno if this is the exact same design that is used here.

pablo128

NovemberWren wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here; when you say mains leaks, do you mean the farther away from estates, exceptionally larger diameter pipes; that would have massive water; and then rushes through to the smaller diameter pipes for homes?

anyhows, that hydrosense detection, (in u.s.), can be attached by Anybody to Any water pipe, and a wireless signal can go out from it.

Dunno if this is the exact same design that is used here.

So it's basically a meter then. Are IW going to start a new programme of installing meters?

branie2

pablo128 wrote: »

So it's basically a meter then. Are IW going to start a new programme of installing meters?

I doubt it

NovemberWren

pablo128 wrote: »

So it's basically a meter then. Are IW going to start a new programme of installing meters?

see: BlackHat 2011 - Vulnerabilities of Wireless Water Meter Networks

it is some years since I accessed this; but that hydrosense was something he was concerned about; and 'privacy'.

charlie14

NovemberWren wrote: »

I'm a bit confused here; when you say mains leaks, do you mean the farther away from estates, exceptionally larger diameter pipes; that would have massive water; and then rushes through to the smaller diameter pipes for homes?

anyhows, that hydrosense detection, (in u.s.), can be attached by Anybody to Any water pipe, and a wireless signal can go out from it.

Dunno if this is the exact same design that is used here.

Yes.

It is just another meter so.

NovemberWren

"HydroSense is a simple, single point, sensor of pressure of water in a building, which can give accurate information about when each water fixture is turned on and for how long. Hydrosense is a simple, screw-on device that doesn't require the services of a plumber. It operates on battery power, or uses WATTR, a self-powered version that uses the flow of water to power the device.

"Hydrosense measures the change in pressure and then to estimate the flow rate, which is related to pressure change via Poiseuille's Law, Poiseuille's Law is that the volumetric rate of fluid in a pipe Q is dependent on the radius of the pipe r, the length of the pipe L, the viscosity of the fluid v, and the pressure drop.

"The information is then sent via wireless - perhaps "backhauled" over the same wireless channel used by the water meter - to the utility. A third party tapping into this information could get lots of information about the human activity in the home, especially if supplemented by information about electrical use. "

really, engineers are prob. the only people that must be accessed about this, (and now with 5G, will it be more complicated?).

astrofool

NovemberWren wrote: »

"HydroSense is a simple, single point, sensor of pressure of water in a building, which can give accurate information about when each water fixture is turned on and for how long. Hydrosense is a simple, screw-on device that doesn't require the services of a plumber. It operates on battery power, or uses WATTR, a self-powered version that uses the flow of water to power the device.

"Hydrosense measures the change in pressure and then to estimate the flow rate, which is related to pressure change via Poiseuille's Law, Poiseuille's Law is that the volumetric rate of fluid in a pipe Q is dependent on the radius of the pipe r, the length of the pipe L, the viscosity of the fluid v, and the pressure drop.

"The information is then sent via wireless - perhaps "backhauled" over the same wireless channel used by the water meter - to the utility. A third party tapping into this information could get lots of information about the human activity in the home, especially if supplemented by information about electrical use. "

really, engineers are prob. the only people that must be accessed about this, (and now with 5G, will it be more complicated?).

To be fair, there are numerous, easier, better sources of data which can be gotten than trying to hack a water meter, anyone with the correct, easily available, key can access your electric and gas meters, your house wifi is probably simple enough to crack, as is any, not up to date, android device being used in the house to name but a few.

5G doesn't really add or subtract to this, but is quickly becoming the new "but GDPR" for the uninformed.

McMurphy

branie2 wrote: »

I doubt it

They may. If FG get back in with a thumping majority, if that happens then it could be argued that they've a legitimate mandate to press ahead with a new metering program.

But if today's polls are anything to go by, there's more chance of martians invading and forcing us to all speak Swahili.

branie2

If that happens, we'll be seeing the "peaceful" protesters again.

McMurphy

branie2 wrote: »

If that happens, we'll be seeing the "peaceful" protesters again.

Sean Conlon?

branie2

He was at the receiving end of a protester

McMurphy

branie2 wrote: »

He was at the receiving end of a protester

Um, no he wasn't.


Former TD Seán Conlan (FG) guilty of assault with broken glass

Brendan Bendar

McMurphy wrote: »

Um, no he wasn't.


Former TD Seán Conlan (FG) guilty of assault with broken glass

Nothing to do with water charge implementation, my friend.

pablo128

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nothing to do with water charge implementation, my friend.

It is literally in the headline of the article. I know it's early, but try to open your eyes.

McMurphy

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nothing to do with water charge implementation, my friend.

Plumbthedepths

pablo128 wrote: »

It is literally in the headline of the article. I know it's early, but try to open your eyes.

"None so blind , as those that won't see"

Brendan Bendar

McMurphy wrote: »

You should know by now every word in my posts, except perhaps on one thread,is carefully thought out, that’s why the word “implementation” is in there Mc.

It’s in there for a reason, that you obviously didn’t get the nuance of.

It was deliberately put in there Mc.:cool:

Plumbthedepths

Nuance vrs Pedantry. Hmm.... I know what I see. ;-)

McMurphy

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

You should know by now every word in my posts, except perhaps on one thread,is carefully thought out, that’s why the word “implementation” is in there Mc.

It’s in there for a reason, that you obviously didn’t get the nuance of.

It was deliberately put in there Mc.:cool:

Oh dear. Yeah you got me there Brenner. My bad.:cool:

Brendan Bendar

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Nuance vrs Pedantry. Hmm.... I know what I see. ;-)

McMurphy wrote: »

Oh dear. Yeah you got me there Brenner. My bad.:cool:

Whatever way you want to look at it or believe it, that word ‘implementation’ was put in deliberately to avoid the thread going off topic with the very posts which showed up immediately:D

Benedict

pablo128 wrote: »

So it's basically a meter then. Are IW going to start a new programme of installing meters?

We're being told that if unmetered homes are "suspected" of going over the quota, they will be offered a meter. If the homeowner says OK, they won't be given one because IW don't do installations any more. And if they say "no", they'll be charged E500 per annum (even if they've gone over by one litre). They will also have a "flow detection device" installed - which is a meter and IW don't install meters.


And by the way, IW have no way of identifying "suspects" in the first place!


It doesn't get much more daft than this!

NovemberWren

Benedict wrote: »

At the outset, all IW customers were told they'd have to pay a yearly amount. That plan collapsed and those who paid had to be repaid. Then there were no fees. Then there we were told that there would be no fees - unless you used an excessive amount of water in which case a fine would be imposed.

So there are intelligent qualified people sitting around a table saying "This is great, we'll have an income stream and over time we can lower the quota threshold and increase the fines. Yeah! Boil the frogs slowly so they won't jump from the pot. And for goodness sake nobody mention that nearly half the frogs won't be boiled. Great! Now someone put the kettle on."

So who's going to be first to have the courage to say, forget the tea, we'll have to draw up another plan 'cos this one is the Titanic"

this seems like a good post to me, especially the "And for goodness sake nobody mention that nearly half the frogs won't be boiled".

(@Benedict; I replied to this at #1276).

And now again - 'the frogs that are boiled' - are these the very poor areas and poorer Estates all over this country - that Ir.Water made the front-line target for Water Meters to be installed?

and, the 'frogs that won't be boiled' - are these the upper-mid-range housing and wealthy housing areas ; - did Ir.Water install Water Meters in all, or just a few, of these most salubrious areas?

If Ir.Water only put in Water Meters in circa half of the entire housing stock [?], - what Maps do they have to show, where, mainly, they targeted the water meters mainly? What are the economic demographics of their water meter installations?

Someone, (even some newspaper), needs to send an F.O.I. Request to Irish Water for these Economic Demographics and the exact Maps of everywhere that they concentrated their water meters installations.

I just wonder if it was in the very poor areas of the country.

Brendan Bendar

NovemberWren wrote: »

this seems like a good post to me, especially the "And for goodness sake nobody mention that nearly half the frogs won't be boiled".

(@Benedict; I replied to this at #1276).

And now again - 'the frogs that are boiled' - are these the very poor areas and poorer Estates all over this country - that Ir.Water made the front-line target for Water Meters to be installed?

and, the 'frogs that won't be boiled' - are these the upper-mid-range housing and wealthy housing areas ; - did Ir.Water install Water Meters in all, or just a few, of these most salubrious areas?

If Ir.Water only put in Water Meters in circa half of the entire housing stock [?], - what Maps do they have to show, where, mainly, they targeted the water meters mainly? What are the economic demographics of their water meter installations?

Someone, (even some newspaper), needs to send an F.O.I. Request to Irish Water for these Economic Demographics and the exact Maps of everywhere that they concentrated their water meters installations.

I just wonder if it was in the very poor areas of the country.

Doubt it verrrrrrry much, I would suggest the opposite .

Benedict

No election candidate has dared to touch the water charges issue. Once the election is over, it will be interesting to see if the nettle is grasped. But if they want people to pay, they will have to have a complete overhaul of the current totally unfair plan.

Nobody is going to accept being fined for spending an extra ten minutes in the shower while nearly half the homes in Ireland can stay in the shower all day without paying a penny.

It just won't be tolerated!

charlie14

Benedict wrote: »

No election candidate has dared to touch the water charges issue. Once the election is over, it will be interesting to see if the nettle is grasped. But if they want people to pay, they will have to have a complete overhaul of the current totally unfair plan.

Nobody is going to accept being fined for spending an extra ten minutes in the shower while nearly half the homes in Ireland can stay in the shower all day without paying a penny.

It just won't be tolerated!

Fine Gael will not be in government and nobody else will go within a country mile of it.

Idbatterim

Benedict wrote: »

No election candidate has dared to touch the water charges issue. Once the election is over, it will be interesting to see if the nettle is grasped. But if they want people to pay, they will have to have a complete overhaul of the current totally unfair plan.

Nobody is going to accept being fined for spending an extra ten minutes in the shower while nearly half the homes in Ireland can stay in the shower all day without paying a penny.

It just won't be tolerated!

forget water charges. LPT is being discussed too. Implement a council tax that everyone pays!

Nevin Parsnipp

Do local authority households have to pay property tax ?