Water charges for excessive usage

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

I thought it best not to answer, as any such answer would be ridiculed simply because I favour everyone paying for the water they use, either by flat charge or meter.

That is just a cop out. Unless a post is ridiculous I fail to see how it can be ridiculed.

Fair play to you though on realising your answer would be ridiculous. Especially considering some of your posts on threads water charges related over the years

charlie14

charlie14 wrote: »

That is just a cop out. Unless a post is ridiculous I fail to see how it can be ridiculed.

Fair play to you though on realising your answer would be ridiculous. Especially considering some of your posts on threads water charges related over the years

Charlie, you have been known to ridicule posts, simply by not being in agreement with your viewpoint.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

Charlie, you have been known to ridicule posts, simply by not being in agreement with your viewpoint.

Maryanne, people who are not in agreement with my viewpoint and make valid points countering that, I engage with in discussion.


As I have said to you, the only way anything can be ridiculed is if it is ridiculous to begin with.

Your mysterious plumber who can calculate the water used by a household without the use of a meter being just one example

Benedict

charlie14 wrote: »

Maryanne, people who are not in agreement with my viewpoint and make valid points countering that, I engage with in discussion.


As I have said to you, the only way anything can be ridiculed is if it is ridiculous to begin with.

Your mysterious plumber who can calculate the water used by a household without the use of a meter being just one example

M84 will never admit to not having a clue about how usage of non-metered homes can be measured.


If that were true, why would zillions have been spent on meters in the first place?

She should tell the truth and shame the devil.

Nevin Parsnipp

Lookit ! I am quite happy to admit there is a metre on my modest gaff and I am quite happy for it to be there .

This thread has focused on how gaffs which do not have a metre can be monitored.

Where as the main topic should be how we CONSERVE potable WATER as a valuable resource !

Is it a valuable and expensive resource ...of course it is !

Allowing free and untrammelled use of this valuable resource is the height of stupidity.

Only way ...I say the only way .....to CONSERVE this expensive and valuable resource is for the user to PAY for excess use !

Don't know why folks is so dead agin that ....???

Nevin Parsnipp

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

Lookit ! I am quite happy to admit there is a metre on my modest gaff and I am quite happy for it to be there .

This thread has focused on how gaffs which do not have a metre can be monitored.

Where as the main topic should be how we CONSERVE potable WATER as a valuable resource !

Is it a valuable and expensive resource ...of course it is !

Allowing free and untrammelled use of this valuable resource is the height of stupidity.

Only way ...I say the only way .....to CONSERVE this expensive and valuable resource is for the user to PAY for excess use !

Don't know why folks is so dead agin that ....???

There’s a section of society that simply don’t want to pay, full stop. Nothing will convince them of the value of conservation, upgrading, etc. They’re as blinkered in their rejection as I am in the merits of paying by use. When they run out of arguments, they resort to silly anti privatisation or some such. eg something, something, dinny, sell off, FFG, .....

charlie14

Nevin Parsnipp wrote: »

Lookit ! I am quite happy to admit there is a metre on my modest gaff and I am quite happy for it to be there .

This thread has focused on how gaffs which do not have a metre can be monitored.

Where as the main topic should be how we CONSERVE potable WATER as a valuable resource !

Is it a valuable and expensive resource ...of course it is !

Allowing free and untrammelled use of this valuable resource is the height of stupidity.

Only way ...I say the only way .....to CONSERVE this expensive and valuable resource is for the user to PAY for excess use !

Don't know why folks is so dead agin that ....???

I have no problem with an annual allocation of 213,000 liters.
What I did have a problem with was the FG/Lab water metering plan, as like their conservation grant, it had nothing to do with conserving water. Had they been interested in water conservation, they would have spent the fortune they wasted on meters on repairing the mains where 50% of treated water is pissing into the ground.


We are actually one of the lowest household per capita users of water in the O.E.C.D. According to Irish Water`s own figures. In 2016 the average household was 2.75. From Irish Water figures per capita usage for households of 2 was 93 cubic meters, and for households of 3 it was 114 . That would have the average household of 2.75 using 108 cubic meters.
Same period from the O.E.C.D. per capita for the average household for Germany was 297.3, for France 401.4, Australia 703.12, USA,1,206.8 and the UK 164.


There is no evidence that metering has any worthwhile effect on water conservation.
In fact there is no great incentive to conserve because the companies metering just increase their unit price if consumption drops.

If our nearest neighbour is anything to go by, it is not even a consideration. The metering companies compete to sell water in bulk to business at reduced prices.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

There’s a section of society that simply don’t want to pay, full stop. Nothing will convince them of the value of conservation, upgrading, etc. They’re as blinkered in their rejection as I am in the merits of paying by use. When they run out of arguments, they resort to silly anti privatisation or some such. eg something, something, dinny, sell off, FFG, .....

ALL of society was told by your golden haired boy Enda, that there would be no metering until we had a world class service. From that and the shambles FG/Lab made of it, it will be a cold day in hell before the vast majority have anything to do with it.


As a nation we do not waste water.We are one of the lowest per capita consumers of water in the world. Much lower that any O.E.C.D. country that has metering.


There is no arguement that Dinny has an adverse finding from a tribunal and who is a tax exile got a state contract by way of a company that is now also under investigation.Those are facts.

Fergus O`Dowd, the FG junior minister in charge of the metering fiasco has no doubts that privatisation was the ultimate goal, and from an earlier post here from Plumbthedepths, neither had the CSO in the government application to Eurostat to get Irish Water off the books.


I would be more inclined to take your conservation utterance with a lesser quantity of salt if you had not taken the "free money" of the conservation grant. It had nothing to do with conservation and even less to do with conserving tax payers money.

Benedict

Over and over again it has been stated that people such as me have no problem about paying for water provided the system is fair.
I have no problem paying a fine if I park on double yellow lines but if only people with red cars had to pay and people with blue cars could park where they liked, they I would have a problem - and anyone with a red car who paid would be a fool.

Right now, we are being told that those with meters have to obey the rules and those without meters don't.

You can't expect people to obey stupid and unfair rules.

Brendan Bendar

Benedict wrote: »

Over and over again it has been stated that people such as me have no problem about paying for water provided the system is fair.
I have no problem paying a fine if I park on double yellow lines but if only people with red cars had to pay and people with blue cars could park where they liked, they I would have a problem - and anyone with a red car who paid would be a fool.

Right now, we are being told that those with meters have to obey the rules and those without meters don't.

You can't expect people to obey stupid and unfair rules.

And they won’t Benedict, you can be quite sure on that.

Benedict

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

And they won’t Benedict, you can be quite sure on that.

Yes, but most people would feel that right now, there is a hell of a lot of discussion and the topic is "How will we get them to pay?"


I think what intrigues people is the puzzle about what will they do next?
They have already tried to pretend that people with and without meters will, in the end, be billed for what they use. That was daft and nobody believed it. (Though mind you they still say that on their website.)


So what will we be told next?


They should make a Netflix series out of this!

Hey, guys. Hope you’re all doing ok in these difficult times. Mind yourselves and each other. Annie.

NovemberWren

Benedict wrote: »

Yes, but most people would feel that right now, there is a hell of a lot of discussion and the topic is "How will we get them to pay?"


I think what intrigues people is the puzzle about what will they do next?
They have already tried to pretend that people with and without meters will, in the end, be billed for what they use. That was daft and nobody believed it. (Though mind you they still say that on their website.)


So what will we be told next?


They should make a Netflix series out of this!

I have not accessed the ir.water website - but it seems clear to me that they should put a National Map of the exact areas of where the water meters were installed and of the exact areas where no meters have been installed.


as to 'the puzzle of what they will do next' - they absolutely will (and definitely are going to), continue this ir.water plan to payment; - but, the beloved Fear factor, of f.g. (and f.f., etc.) will be:- that Private Security Monitoring companies will be videoing Personal Abdominal Emissions of every person. This is already being done, in an illicit manner.
This is a Godsend to political parties, in the form of intimidation and also house prices; and they will now endeavour to abnegate their, heretofore, illegal allowance of this monitoriing to these Private Security Monitoring outfits; by making this videoing perfectly legal.
(I think there is some Private Security Bill going through at the moment).

I know an independent Councillor who is hiding behind his grand-children to ensure that his house is not monitored.

Bass Reeves

NovemberWren wrote: »

I have not accessed the ir.water website - but it seems clear to me that they should put a National Map of the exact areas of where the water meters were installed and of the exact areas where no meters have been installed.


as to 'the puzzle of what they will do next' - they absolutely will (and definitely are going to), continue this ir.water plan to payment; - but, the beloved Fear factor, of f.g. (and f.f., etc.) will be:- that Private Security Monitoring companies will be videoing Personal Abdominal Emissions of every person. This is already being done, in an illicit manner.
This is a Godsend to political parties, in the form of intimidation and also house prices; and they will now endeavour to abnegate their, heretofore, illegal allowance of this monitoriing to these Private Security Monitoring outfits; by making this videoing perfectly legal.
(I think there is some Private Security Bill going through at the moment).

I know an independent Councillor who is hiding behind his grand-children to ensure that his house is not monitored.

There is going to be an emergency budget in 3-6 weeks time, I would not be surprised if a flat rate water charge was imposed at 100/house for water and another 100 if house is connected to public sewer

Topgear on Dave

I'd doubt it.
Politicians have learned by this stage that water charges = sustained large protests. Cutbacks in spending = temporary fairly small protests.

I expect to see fairly brutal cutbacks in public spending.

Idbatterim

No point in going down that route. Things are already on thin ice as it is. The amount of exemptions etc there would have been is mental anyway. If they want to do something useful , introduce a council tax !

Idbatterim

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

I'd doubt it.
Politicians have learned by this stage that water charges = sustained large protests. Cutbacks in spending = temporary fairly small protests.

I expect to see fairly brutal cutbacks in public spending.

They should start with the nbp sham!

charlie14

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is going to be an emergency budget in 3-6 weeks time, I would not be surprised if a flat rate water charge was imposed at 100/house for water and another 100 if house is connected to public sewer

Do you not think they have shot themselves in both feet enough already over water charges, without now attempting more of the same in the middle of an international health crisis where we are being told to wash our hands often, and disinfect any potential surfaces that could harbour the virus.:rolleyes:

Bass Reeves

charlie14 wrote: »

Do you not think they have shot themselves in both feet enough already over water charges, without now attempting more of the same in the middle of an international health crisis where we are being told to wash our hands often, and disinfect any potential surfaces that could harbour the virus.:rolleyes:

The health crisis will be over in 6-8 weeks, the problem then will be a finiancal crisis. As usual we will have too narrow a tax basis. We will be limited in our ability raise taxes. There will have to be a load of difficult choices to be made. Every avenue to raise money will need to be looked.

WE may again have to look at reducing public service pay, will that be fair on Nurses, Health workers, Guards and Army personnel who will have put there lives at risk all through the crisis. Who may have worked exceptionall long hours to get us through the crisis.

Student fees are already in place as is a property tax. 150K people have been made unemployed in the last 5-7 days. Having to pay for water later in the year will not stop you from washing your hands now.

NovemberWren

Bass Reeves wrote: »

There is going to be an emergency budget in 3-6 weeks time, I would not be surprised if a flat rate water charge was imposed at 100/house for water and another 100 if house is connected to public sewer

Germany now seems to be beginning to spend all that they have now on their own infrastructure. About over a year ago, it was said that Germany had enough for themselves, and also much that could be loaned out?
But there has not been much said even from the ecb lately?
And as for Italy, - could that not now be more starkly obvious? The sick man of Europe, whoops, no;- of the EC. Their decision now is crucial?
So, the scenario is changing quickly and alarmingly? and if not in the short term, then in the medium term - that 100/house, 100/waste is a concentration to all the minds of the people here - anyhow, if they had to pay, it would embolden the poor to protest against the Wealthy employing Private Security Monitoring that assesses their personal abdominal emissions.

charlie14

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The health crisis will be over in 6-8 weeks, the problem then will be a finiancal crisis. As usual we will have too narrow a tax basis. We will be limited in our ability raise taxes. There will have to be a load of difficult choices to be made. Every avenue to raise money will need to be looked.

WE may again have to look at reducing public service pay, will that be fair on Nurses, Health workers, Guards and Army personnel who will have put there lives at risk all through the crisis. Who may have worked exceptionall long hours to get us through the crisis.

Student fees are already in place as is a property tax. 150K people have been made unemployed in the last 5-7 days. Having to pay for water later in the year will not stop you from washing your hands now.

If this health crisis is over in 6-8 weeks then where is this financial crisis coming from when these 150K people will then be back at work ?


Never ceases to amaze me how those in favour of water charges will jump on anything attempting to get their beloved charges back.
Are you seriously saying that any political party are going to look like a shower of opportunists by attempting to use this health crisis to bring back water charges!

Bass Reeves

charlie14 wrote: »

If this health crisis is over in 6-8 weeks then where is this financial crisis coming from when these 150K people will then be back at work ?


Never ceases to amaze me how those in favour of water charges will jump on anything attempting to get their beloved charges back.
Are you seriously saying that any political party are going to look like a shower of opportunists by attempting to use this health crisis to bring back water charges!

Half those people will not be back at work. Everything will slow down. how many business's will not recover, How many resturants and pubs will not open again. How many other business will go broke. Will Ryanair and Aer Lingus survive, what about travel agents, Tourism will struggle this year, few if any American, European's or English. We are entering a recession that may well be as prolonged as the last one.

Even look at Sport how many coaches, physio's and fitness personnel will have no work for 3-4 months. Public transport will be curtailed already inter city bus providers are cutting back on routes. When this is over we will not just be going back to normal. Wake up if you think nothing has changed

charlie14

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Half those people will not be back at work. Everything will slow down. how many business's will not recover, How many resturants and pubs will not open again. How many other business will go broke. Will Ryanair and Aer Lingus survive, what about travel agents, Tourism will struggle this year, few if any American, European's or English. We are entering a recession that may well be as prolonged as the last one.

Even look at Sport how many coaches, physio's and fitness personnel will have no work for 3-4 months. Public transport will be curtailed already inter city bus providers are cutting back on routes. When this is over we will not just be going back to normal. Wake up if you think nothing has changed

Of course everything has changed, but if you seriously believe any political party will somehow attempt to use this health crisis to reintroduce water charges it`s you who really need to wake up.
It would be looked at for what it would be. Cynical opportunism.

Bass Reeves

charlie14 wrote: »

Of course everything has changed, but if you seriously believe any political party will somehow attempt to use this health crisis to reintroduce water charges it`s you who really need to wake up.
It would be looked at for what it would be. Cynical opportunism.

Borris Johnson is betting about a million British people lives on it to try to save the British economy. Water charges seem pretty small fare in comparison.

charlie14

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Borris Johnson is betting about a million British people lives on it to try to save the British economy. Water charges seem pretty small fare in comparison.

You really are obsessed with using any excuse to reintroduce water charges.
There is in all probability going to be an economic slowdown in light of this health crisis in the interim, but other than water charges you appear to have given no thought to any other means of plugging a possible financial gap than water charges.


If there is a fall off in tourism and travel within the country then does it not make sense to look at infrastructure projects that in such cases can be put on the back burner ?
Off the top of my head there are road projects, (one in Mayo alone priced at 241 Million) and a 3 Billion broadband plan, which imo is financial insanity anyway.


In times of need you cut your cloth to suit your needs. Not cynically use them to push a political agenda.

Bass Reeves

charlie14 wrote: »

You really are obsessed with using any excuse to reintroduce water charges.
There is in all probability going to be an economic slowdown in light of this health crisis in the interim, but other than water charges you appear to have given no thought to any other means of plugging a possible financial gap than water charges.


If there is a fall off in tourism and travel within the country then does it not make sense to look at infrastructure projects that in such cases can be put on the back burner ?
Off the top of my head there are road projects, (one in Mayo alone priced at 241 Million) and a 3 Billion broadband plan, which imo is financial insanity anyway.


In times of need you cut your cloth to suit your needs. Not cynically use them to push a political agenda.

Both have contracts signed. I was totally against the NBP however the contract has now been signed so it will go ahead. Any road project the same. However all you do cancelling projects is make more people unemployed. so more pubs and resturants close

Cutting costs can only save so much, you also have to raise money. Over the last 5 years we never reduced taxes on people to any great extent so little opportunity to raise personnel taxation. We are over dependent on Corporation tax returns.This has been highlighted again and again. Expect to see a big drop in corporation tax as year progresses. It all depends on how bif the hole in the public finances are. But there are few silver bullets to collect large sums of money. I expect that property tax will increase, there may be an opportunity to raise taxes and excise on fuel if oil prices remain low.You will see cutbacks in Education and in capital projects, but most projects are PPP which do not go on the books as public debt. Plans for social and affordable housing will be kept in place if possible.

The money that needs to be raised or cut back may be in the order of 20-30 billion. A flat water and sewage charge that I indicated above would bring in about 300 million. We will have to run a deficit and the Nama money will help but serious money will still need to be raised

Benedict

If this thread has shown anything, it has shown that there are still contributors out there (one in particular) who cannot understand that just because a person doesn't want to pay unless ALL pay, doesn't mean they don't want to pay at all.

A child of eight could have devised a more workable plan than the one we are expected to comply with. And each time a revision was made, it got worse.

Most people will pay up if it's fair. If it's not fair, only an idiot would pay.

Benedict

Benedict wrote: »

If this thread has shown anything, it has shown that there are still contributors out there (one in particular) who cannot understand that just because a person doesn't want to pay unless ALL pay, doesn't mean they don't want to pay at all.

A child of eight could have devised a more workable plan than the one we are expected to comply with. And each time a revision was made, it got worse.

Most people will pay up if it's fair. If it's not fair, only an idiot would pay.

Hi, Benny. Hope you and yours are keeping well. Make sure to conserve water when washing the hands.

Benedict

Deleted User wrote: »

Hi, Benny. Hope you and yours are keeping well. Make sure to conserve water when washing the hands.

Thanks m84 - good to know you're thinking of me.


I always do try to conserve water where possible.


Incidentally, there are rumours that only red and blue cars will have to pay road tax in future and that people with white or black cars will have to pay double to make up the shortfall. Those with colours other than red, blue, black or white will just pay the usual (if they wish to do so).


No doubt some troublesome drivers of white or black cars will complain - but there will always be troublemakers.



Remind you of anything?

Idbatterim

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The health crisis will be over in 6-8 weeks, the problem then will be a finiancal crisis. As usual we will have too narrow a tax basis. We will be limited in our ability raise taxes. There will have to be a load of difficult choices to be made. Every avenue to raise money will need to be looked.

WE may again have to look at reducing public service pay, will that be fair on Nurses, Health workers, Guards and Army personnel who will have put there lives at risk all through the crisis. Who may have worked exceptionall long hours to get us through the crisis.

Student fees are already in place as is a property tax. 150K people have been made unemployed in the last 5-7 days. Having to pay for water later in the year will not stop you from washing your hands now.

zero point in going back to water charges and I doubt they will bother. They should introduce a council tax, every adult in a household pays it, no exceptions!

The lpt as is, is a farce! I question LPT water charges etc, if they are going to just less than token gesture rates charged, tons of exemptions, the usual irish set up... Better off leave the system as it and no increase welfare by a fiver a week etc, than all this hassle of charging for water and it being some pittance like two hundred a year...