Water charges for excessive usage

charlie14

charlie14 wrote: »

The figure of 108 cubic meters that shows we are one of the lowest household users of water in the O.E.C.D., and over 50% lower than our nearest neighbour where there are metered charges, is from Irish Water`s own water metering data.


To save any further pedantic posts from you I am assuming you asked because you did not know, rather than you attempting to justify a Billion euro spend on meters as a survey on household water usage.

I was curious as to how it was measured as this thread is about the impossibility of measurement without metering. Hence my confusion.

charlie14

Deleted User wrote: »

I was curious as to how it was measured as this thread is about the impossibility of measurement without metering. Hence my confusion.

Well hopefully you will now accept that there is no way of measuring usage without metering and we will have no more silliness on your mystic plumber.


As with any other survey, random sampling would have provided the figure at a minuscule of the Billion euro wasted.

Yellow_Fern

charlie14 wrote: »

The enduring arguement made by supporters of Irish Water`s household metering throughout this whole sorry saga has been that it was somehow to do with conservation without anything whatsoever to back up their point.


We have one of the lowest per capita household usage without metering in the O.E.C.D. On Irish Water`s own figures, we us 108 cubic meters annually compared to Germany`s 297.3, France`s 401.4, Australia`s 703.12, U.S.A, 1206.8 and the UK`s 164. Al counties that have water metering.


What really knocks this conservation arguement into a cocked hat is that it is not households that are wasting water, but that 50% of treated water is being lost through mains leaks.
If you are really interested in conservation surely this is where you would start, (and something that was promised by FG before there would be any thought ofmetering), rather than establish a quango to spend over a Billion Euro on burying meters, or offering a bribe costed at over 130 Million Euro that had absolutely nothing to do with conservation.

Many leaks occur in peoples properties. Meters are an excellent way to fight such leaks, in fact it is the only way to find hidden leaks in peoples homes without hiring professionals. Irish Water have published examples of obvious leaks in domestic settings found with meters but you'd rather water be wasted and peoples homes be damaged?

There is plenty of evidence that volumetric charging of water reduces consumption. Read OECD (2010). Greening Household Behaviour: The Role of Public Policy.Residential Water Use. OECD 2011

The idea that there is backdoor privatisation is mad stuff like Soros level. There is very little money to be made in water. It is odd that such a negative attitude to privatisation exists. Privatisation has been successful in Ireland. From the Luas to the air industry to bus routes. Even in telecommunications, privatisation has resulted in vastly superior service. How easy it is to forget terrible dealing with Telecom Eircom was in the 1990s when it was in state ownership and now we can choose from a range of operators depending on our needs. Not only is service better but is also cheaper. That been said water is a natural monopoly and it is hard to privatise well.

Id encourage everyone to get meters. It is the adult thing to do. Protect our water and protect your property.

Brendan Bendar

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Many leaks occur in peoples properties. Meters are an excellent way to fight such leaks, in fact it is the only way to find hidden leaks in peoples homes without hiring professionals. Irish Water have published examples of obvious leaks in domestic settings found with meters but you'd rather water be wasted and peoples homes be damaged?

There is plenty of evidence that volumetric charging of water reduces consumption. Read OECD (2010). Greening Household Behaviour: The Role of Public Policy.Residential Water Use. OECD 2011

The idea that there is backdoor privatisation is mad stuff like Soros level. There is very little money to be made in water. It is odd that such a negative attitude to privatisation exists. Privatisation has been successful in Ireland. From the Luas to the air industry to bus routes. Even in telecommunications, privatisation has resulted in vastly superior service. How easy it is to forget terrible dealing with Telecom Eircom was in the 1990s when it was in state ownership and now we can choose from a range of operators depending on our needs. Not only is service better but is also cheaper. That been said water is a natural monopoly and it is hard to privatise well.

Id encourage everyone to get meters. It is the adult thing to do. Protect our water and protect your property.

Cue- Dinny,Siteserv-privatization-Malta.....yada yada.

Was watching some Reelin’ episodes recently.... Waste collection strikes, Surface Transport strikes, Air Transport strikes, Civil Service strikes, Shipping Strikes.....and others ...

Good post dude.

blanch152

Thanks to the Covid-19 crisis, the revenue raising potential of water charges is going to come back on the table quicker than the conservation argument.

Would expect a high flat charge on those with no meters, and a lower charge for those with meters. Will create the incentive to get a meter.

pablo128

blanch152 wrote: »

Thanks to the Covid-19 crisis, the revenue raising potential of water charges is going to come back on the table quicker than the conservation argument.

Would expect a high flat charge on those with no meters, and a lower charge for those with meters. Will create the incentive to get a meter.

And if people simply refuse to pay like the last time? Maybe turn their water down to a trickle, perhaps?

Joe Kaine

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Many leaks occur in peoples properties. Meters are an excellent way to fight such leaks, in fact it is the only way to find hidden leaks in peoples homes without hiring professionals. Irish Water have published examples of obvious leaks in domestic settings found with meters but you'd rather water be wasted and peoples homes be damaged?

There is plenty of evidence that volumetric charging of water reduces consumption. Read OECD (2010). Greening Household Behaviour: The Role of Public Policy.Residential Water Use. OECD 2011

The idea that there is backdoor privatisation is mad stuff like Soros level. There is very little money to be made in water. It is odd that such a negative attitude to privatisation exists. Privatisation has been successful in Ireland. From the Luas to the air industry to bus routes. Even in telecommunications, privatisation has resulted in vastly superior service. How easy it is to forget terrible dealing with Telecom Eircom was in the 1990s when it was in state ownership and now we can choose from a range of operators depending on our needs. Not only is service better but is also cheaper. That been said water is a natural monopoly and it is hard to privatise well.

Id encourage everyone to get meters. It is the adult thing to do. Protect our water and protect your property.

Leaks are located & repaired by IW contractors as well.

Joe Kaine

Joe Kaine wrote: »

Leaks are located & repaired by IW contractors as well.

Not on private property.

Yellow_Fern

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Cue- Dinny,Siteserv-privatization-Malta.....yada yada.

Was watching some Reelin’ episodes recently.... Waste collection strikes, Surface Transport strikes, Air Transport strikes, Civil Service strikes, Shipping Strikes.....and others ...

Good post dude.

Ferries. Irish ferries is another example of a near perfect privatisation. The old public B and I was dog and had to get numerous bailouts. The private replacement has provided better services and no bailouts. Another is Irish Steel, privatisation allowed it to die, a much needed death.

Joe Kaine

Deleted User wrote: »

Not on private property.

I work for the contractors that actually cover your area. If a leak is located between the Boundary Box (meter) & the Point of Entry usually under the kitchen sink (outside obviously) it will be repaired.

Now I know you are going to refer to the details of the First Fix Free Scheme which states they will only repair a leak outside your boundary wall but that does never be adhered too.

We will locate the leak if it's on private property we will ask the customer to sign a waiver if they would like us to repair the leak and then we will proceed with the repair.

charlie14

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Many leaks occur in peoples properties. Meters are an excellent way to fight such leaks, in fact it is the only way to find hidden leaks in peoples homes without hiring professionals. Irish Water have published examples of obvious leaks in domestic settings found with meters but you'd rather water be wasted and peoples homes be damaged?

There is plenty of evidence that volumetric charging of water reduces consumption. Read OECD (2010). Greening Household Behaviour: The Role of Public Policy.Residential Water Use. OECD 2011

The idea that there is backdoor privatisation is mad stuff like Soros level. There is very little money to be made in water. It is odd that such a negative attitude to privatisation exists. Privatisation has been successful in Ireland. From the Luas to the air industry to bus routes. Even in telecommunications, privatisation has resulted in vastly superior service. How easy it is to forget terrible dealing with Telecom Eircom was in the 1990s when it was in state ownership and now we can choose from a range of operators depending on our needs. Not only is service better but is also cheaper. That been said water is a natural monopoly and it is hard to privatise well.

Id encourage everyone to get meters. It is the adult thing to do. Protect our water and protect your property.

,



Since you ask I would regarded the conserving of water same as I would in any undertaking. Spend your resources on the main problem, i.e mains leaks before you go messing around at minor problem. Pretty much what we were told would happen by Enda Kenny with his "world class service" before metering would even be considered.
You must be having a Soros like moment yourself if you believe the then sudden government concern for the potential damage of leaking pipes to private dwellings and the 130 Million euro plus bribe offer of taxpayers money were anything remotely connection to conservation. They were both expensive scams at the taxpayers expense for no other reason than to get households to "engage" with Irish Water.



As to your reference to te O.E.C.D. Like the E.U. until the E.C.J clipped their wings, they have always been cheerleaders for water charges on the basis of wastage, but I have already shown you that as a nation our householders do not waste water. We are among the lowest per capita household users of water in the O.E.C.D. at 108 cubic meters. Over 50% less than our nearest metered neighbours.


If you believe that privatisation of water was not the ultimate aim, then I am not alone in believing it was and there are quite a few others that believe the same.Fergus O Dowd the then FG Junior Minister in charge of implementing the metering fiasco has stated in the Dail chamber he believes privatisation was the envisaged end game, as has our own C.S.O. in their correspondence with Eurostat in their effort to get Irish Water off the books.
Any sign of that referendum we were promised that if passed would ensure water services could never be privatised


There is a lot of money to be made from privatising water services, or do you believe private companies scramble to get involved just to fulfill a civic duty ?
Again if you look to our nearest neighbour, there is no evidence that due to the privatisation of water services, conservation brings households monetary reward. Their experience is that when consumption drops prices increase, and any water conserved is auctioned off by these private companies to the business sector at reduced bulk rates.

charlie14

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Cue- Dinny,Siteserv-privatization-Malta.....yada yada.

Was watching some Reelin’ episodes recently.... Waste collection strikes, Surface Transport strikes, Air Transport strikes, Civil Service strikes, Shipping Strikes.....and others ...

Good post dude.

On privatisation I assume the two yada`s refer toFergus O Dowd the then Junior Minister in charge of implementing the metering clusterf**k and our very own Central Statistics Office.

Joe Kaine

Joe Kaine wrote: »

I work for the contractors that actually cover your area. If a leak is located between the Boundary Box (meter) & the Point of Entry usually under the kitchen sink (outside obviously) it will be repaired.

Now I know you are going to refer to the details of the First Fix Free Scheme which states they will only repair a leak outside your boundary wall but that does never be adhered too.

We will locate the leak if it's on private property we will ask the customer to sign a waiver if they would like us to repair the leak and then we will proceed with the repair.

Thanks for that. Good to hear.

Brendan Bendar

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Ferries. Irish ferries is another example of a near perfect privatisation. The old public B and I was dog and had to get numerous bailouts. The private replacement has provided better services and no bailouts. Another is Irish Steel, privatisation allowed it to die, a much needed death.

Old B&I run by the Unions.

Brendan Bendar

charlie14 wrote: »

On privatisation I assume the two yada`s refer toFergus O Dowd the then Junior Minister in charge of implementing the metering clusterf**k and our very own Central Statistics Office.

Nah... just other vacuous conspiracy theories

Like, anything to queer the pitch as it were.

Nothing that can be substantiated...

charlie14

Joe Kaine wrote: »

I work for the contractors that actually cover your area. If a leak is located between the Boundary Box (meter) & the Point of Entry usually under the kitchen sink (outside obviously) it will be repaired.

Now I know you are going to refer to the details of the First Fix Free Scheme which states they will only repair a leak outside your boundary wall but that does never be adhered too.

We will locate the leak if it's on private property we will ask the customer to sign a waiver if they would like us to repair the leak and then we will proceed with the repair.

Apologies if I got this incorrect, but I`m assuming it is not just a matter of signing a waiver to avail of this offer. You would also be required to be an Irish Water customer ?
Just out of idle curiosity, at what rate of flow would it be deemed unnecessary to locate and fix household leakage ?

Yellow_Fern

charlie14 wrote: »

,



Since you ask I would regarded the conserving of water same as I would in any undertaking. Spend your resources on the main problem, i.e mains leaks before you go messing around at minor problem. Pretty much what we were told would happen by Enda Kenny with his "world class service" before metering would even be considered.
You must be having a Soros like moment yourself if you believe the then sudden government concern for the potential damage of leaking pipes to private dwellings and the 130 Million euro plus bribe offer of taxpayers money were anything remotely connection to conservation. They were both expensive scams at the taxpayers expense for no other reason than to get households to "engage" with Irish Water.



As to your reference to te O.E.C.D. Like the E.U. until the E.C.J clipped their wings, they have always been cheerleaders for water charges on the basis of wastage, but I have already shown you that as a nation our householders do not waste water. We are among the lowest per capita household users of water in the O.E.C.D. at 108 cubic meters. Over 50% less than our nearest metered neighbours.


If you believe that privatisation of water was not the ultimate aim, then I am not alone in believing it was and there are quite a few others that believe the same.Fergus O Dowd the then FG Junior Minister in charge of implementing the metering fiasco has stated in the Dail chamber he believes privatisation was the envisaged end game, as has our own C.S.O. in their correspondence with Eurostat in their effort to get Irish Water off the books.
Any sign of that referendum we were promised that if passed would ensure water services could never be privatised


There is a lot of money to be made from privatising water services, or do you believe private companies scramble to get involved just to fulfill a civic duty ?
Again if you look to our nearest neighbour, there is no evidence that due to the privatisation of water services, conservation brings households monetary reward. Their experience is that when consumption drops prices increase, and any water conserved is auctioned off by these private companies to the business sector at reduced bulk rates.

Leaks waste water. can you provide a citation for your clam on per capita use?

To be honest I dont worry too much on per capita use. I want to preserve our waterways and growing water demand is threatening this. Look at Irish Water annual reports. They detail how a small about leaks in peoples homes waste huge amounts of water.

Plumbthedepths

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Many leaks occur in peoples properties. Meters are an excellent way to fight such leaks, in fact it is the only way to find hidden leaks in peoples homes without hiring professionals. Irish Water have published examples of obvious leaks in domestic settings found with meters but you'd rather water be wasted and peoples homes be damaged?

There is plenty of evidence that volumetric charging of water reduces consumption. Read OECD (2010). Greening Household Behaviour: The Role of Public Policy.Residential Water Use. OECD 2011

The idea that there is backdoor privatisation is mad stuff like Soros level. There is very little money to be made in water. It is odd that such a negative attitude to privatisation exists. Privatisation has been successful in Ireland. From the Luas to the air industry to bus routes. Even in telecommunications, privatisation has resulted in vastly superior service. How easy it is to forget terrible dealing with Telecom Eircom was in the 1990s when it was in state ownership and now we can choose from a range of operators depending on our needs. Not only is service better but is also cheaper. That been said water is a natural monopoly and it is hard to privatise well.

Id encourage everyone to get meters. It is the adult thing to do. Protect our water and protect your property.

You were doing so well until you claimed there was very little money in privatisation.
Basically a wind up post to provoke a reaction.

charlie14

Brendan Bendar wrote: »

Nah... just other vacuous conspiracy theories

Like, anything to queer the pitch as it were.

Nothing that can be substantiated...

The Junior Minister in charge of implementing the fiasco came up with a conspiracy theory on the privatisation of water services as did the C.S.O. in their efforts to convince Eurostat to allow Irish Water go "off the books" :eek:


It`s a lovely evening Brendan, stick your head out and get some fresh air. This social isolation seems to be addling the old grey cells a bit.:)

Joe Kaine

charlie14 wrote: »

Apologies if I got this incorrect, but I`m assuming it is not just a matter of signing a waiver to avail of this offer. You would also be required to be an Irish Water customer ?
Just out of idle curiosity, at what rate of flow would it be deemed unnecessary to locate and fix household leakage ?

Leaks are being repaired for people that have no meters or people that have never registered with IW. Obvious leaks like burst pipes in the middle of the lawn etc leaving said people without water at all.

Meters are being constantly monitored via the transponders on the meters. A constant flow of water going through the meter is flagged by IW. IW contacts the contractors or indeed the County Councils too as both are now working side by side and the process of locating & repairing the leak kicks in.

It's a smooth system. I've yet to come across someone that refuses to have a leak repaired.

charlie14

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Leaks waste water. can you provide a citation for your clam on per capita use?

To be honest I dont worry too much on per capita use. I want to preserve our waterways and growing water demand is threatening this. Look at Irish Water annual reports. They detail how a small about leaks in peoples homes waste huge amounts of water.

Other than water consumed and retained by the bodies of those in a household, I imagine the waste water per household is slightly less than the per capita household figure of 108 cubic meters.


Again, at 108 cubic meters we are one of the lowest users of treated water in the O.E.C.D. Over 50% lower than our nearest neighbour who are metered and many multiples lower than many other of our not too distant metered neighbours.


If you were running a business would you waste resources on a minor problem rather than the major problem ?
Basically this is what the policy was.
Not just wasting taxpayers money on meters but also time and resources on small time domestic leaks for nothing more than an attempt to get households to "engage" with metering while mains were leaking like sieves.


If that wasn`t crasy enough, then too potentially waste a further 130 Million plus Euro on a conservation scheme that was not within an asses roar of conservation in a further attempt to get households to "engage" just added to the farce.

charlie14

Joe Kaine wrote: »

Leaks are being repaired for people that have no meters or people that have never registered with IW. Obvious leaks like burst pipes in the middle of the lawn etc leaving said people without water at all.

Meters are being constantly monitored via the transponders on the meters. A constant flow of water going through the meter is flagged by IW. IW contacts the contractors or indeed the County Councils too as both are now working side by side and the process of locating & repairing the leak kicks in.

It's a smooth system. I've yet to come across someone that refuses to have a leak repaired.

So are you saying that irrespective of whether you have an IW meter or not, household boundary side leaks are repaired free of charge without any need to sign up as an IW customer if you are not already one ?

Joe Kaine

charlie14 wrote: »

So are you saying that irrespective of whether you have an IW meter or not, household boundary side leaks are repaired free of charge without any need to sign up as an IW customer if you are not already one ?

I'm saying IW has never seen anyone stuck. If a person has no meter, has a substantial leak on private property a leak that leaves them with no water at all they will get us to repair said leak.

All this is of course while they have the funds. When the funds run out all this is drastically cut back.

What's an IW customer anyways? A domestic household with a metered feed and not paying a water charge?

Only IW customers in my opinion are commercial & agricultural customers.

Plumbthedepths

Joe Kaine wrote: »

I'm saying IW has never seen anyone stuck. If a person has no meter, has a substantial leak on private property a leak that leaves them with no water at all they will get us to repair said leak.

All this is of course while they have the funds. When the funds run out all this is drastically cut back.

What's an IW customer anyways? A domestic household with a metered feed and not paying a water charge?

Only IW customers in my opinion are commercial & agricultural customers.

Didn't you claim on another thread from months ago that the funds have run out and the contractors stood down?

Joe Kaine

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Didn't you claim on another thread from months ago that the funds have run out and the contractors stood down?

Contractors still have lads on the ground. Well trimmed back though. Majority of rehab projects (replacing lead pipes etc) have ground to a halt and no sign of it to take off again either especially now with the covid-19 situation. First fix free schemes are still going.

charlie14

Joe Kaine wrote: »

I'm saying IW has never seen anyone stuck. If a person has no meter, has a substantial leak on private property a leak that leaves them with no water at all they will get us to repair said leak.

All this is of course while they have the funds. When the funds run out all this is drastically cut back.

What's an IW customer anyways? A domestic household with a metered feed and not paying a water charge?

Only IW customers in my opinion are commercial & agricultural customers.

Thanks for that, but just to clarify.

Are you saying that if someone does not have an IW meter and are unwilling to allow IW to install one. then IW will repair any household side leak free of charge to the same criteria as those of the first fix scheme ?

Joe Kaine

charlie14 wrote: »

Thanks for that, but just to clarify.

Are you saying that if someone does not have an IW meter and are unwilling to allow IW to install one. then IW will repair any household side leak free of charge to the same criteria as those of the first fix scheme ?

I'd imagine anyone that has refused, are totally against IW / possible water charges would not be the sort to contact IW re: anything. They probably if they do at all repair leaks themselves. Hire a leak detection technician & repair crew if needed etc.

There's a substantial amount of households that do not have metered feeds and it's not because they are against water charges / meter installs etc. It's because the whole meter installation thing stopped,

Plumbthedepths

Joe Kaine wrote: »

Contractors still have lads on the ground. Well trimmed back though. Majority of rehab projects (replacing lead pipes etc) have ground to a halt and no sign of it to take off again either especially now with the covid-19 situation. First fix free schemes are still going.

That's not what you said in your other comments on different threads. All still there on your post history.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?p=112087109

Joe Kaine

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

That's not what you said in your other comments on different threads. All still there on your post history.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?p=112087109

Contractors were stood down and a lot of workers let go for a period I being one of them. Some a small few were brought back, for how long I do not know hence I mentioning while funds last twice. Everything has been scaled back.

Plumbthedepths

Joe Kaine wrote: »

Contractors were stood down and a lot of workers let go for a period I being one of them. Some a small few were brought back, for how long I do not know hence I mentioning while funds last twice. Everything has been scaled back.

You have completely contradicted yourself. Total lack of credibility tbh.